clutchless DOWNshifting

[Paul_E_D]

The hyper has the smoothest gearbox I've sampled since my 125GP bike. clutchless up and down smooth as silk. I'm still guilty of clutchless downshifts on any bike at certain times. It can definitely be smoother than using the clutch and for SURE takes less mental effort. Watch Marquez ride. He doesn't touch the clutch. Now his bike may have an electronic assist that allows clutchless shifts at ANY moment whether the gear box is loaded or not and has that fancy seamless tranny. BUT still, if your timing is good, you can do it on any bike. You just have to have that sense for feeling when the gearbox is unloaded.

[isaac_]

I can't vouch for the OP's riding abilities as he may still be a no0b asking silly questions on the interwebs but I approve of his choice in Bourbons.

It's encouraging to read these old threads and know we all asked noob questions at one point. :p

[tsorfas]

I see zero benefits from clutch less downshifts other then you are risking destroying your transmission.
That's my take in pretty much all bikes you ll find at CCS. At the pro level with the ability to rebuild and/or get technology that all you to do it then fine.

[Paul_E_D]

Really? So the bike I raced for 5 years without ever squeezing the clutch shouldn't exist?

[Kurlon]

I see zero benefits from clutch less downshifts other then you are risking destroying your transmission.
That's my take in pretty much all bikes you ll find at CCS. At the pro level with the ability to rebuild and/or get technology that all you to do it then fine.

Um... yeah, we need to talk.

BTW, you sold the perfect bike for learning the technique, that thing snicked down form 3rd to 2nd sans clutch on corner entry like it was preordained.

[cdovego]

Thoughts?

Personally, I've always wondered what green tastes like?

and I just noticed this is from 05, not 15 - that's awesome + Sav is being stubborn...this is a fun thread.

[tsorfas]

Um... yeah, we need to talk.

BTW, you sold the perfect bike for learning the technique, that thing snicked down form 3rd to 2nd sans clutch on corner entry like it was preordained.

Yeah lol those bikes aren't for me (motards)

- - - Updated - - -

Really? So the bike I raced for 5 years without ever squeezing the clutch shouldn't exist?

I don't know much (or anything) for GP bikes.
But people I respect their mechanical knowledge and skill taught me to avoid that.

[Paul_E_D]

Yeah lol those bikes aren't for me (motards)

- - - Updated - - -



I don't know much (or anything) for GP bikes.
But people I respect their mechanical knowledge and skill taught me to avoid that.

Get new people. LOL

Seriously, it is exactly the same as clutchless upshifts. You time the shift at the moment the gearbox unloads as you roll off. If you are too slow with the shift, the transmission loads on decel and it simply won't shift. No damage done.

[cdovego]

He's not a morning person, wait 2 hours and try again.

[tsorfas]

He's not a morning person, wait 2 hours and try again.

That may be the realest post in this thread

[OreoGaborio]

How does a slipper clutch have anything to do with clutchless downshifting? Slipper does exactly that - it slips AFTER a gear has been engaged so the rider doesn't have to match wheel speed to rpms and can bang out downshifts earlier without rev matching. Whether you downshift with clutch engaged or disengaged doesn't have any bearing on whether you have a slipper. Slipper works AFTER the shifting is done.

Thoughts?

Well, I did a fair amount of experimenting with clutchless downshifts since I started this thread. For me & the bikes I was on, I found that I needed to have very precise timing and throttle manipulation and it was tough to get right consistently. Either I was too generous with the throttle when trying to unload the transmission and the bike would lurch forward, or I wouldn't be generous with the throttle enough and my body would lurch forward as the sudden increase in engine RPM and engine braking decelerated the bike more than anticipated.

Whichever the case, I ended up with either a "less than smooth" or flat out harsh gear change that upset the chassis. Add in some lean angle and things could get hairy if I was really pushing my pace.

Now I wouldn't say I have EXTENSIVE experience riding bikes with slippers, I've ridden a few. With the slipper clutch (depending on how good it is) all possibility of a harsh gear change is gone because you're eliminating the need for such precise throttle manipulation. Just stomp as you're rolling off the throttle & the slipper does all the work smoothing it out.

*disclaimer: All bikes, transmissions and riders are different.

[Marc R]

The hyper has the smoothest gearbox I've sampled since my 125GP bike. clutchless up and down smooth as silk. I'm still guilty of clutchless downshifts on any bike at certain times. It can definitely be smoother than using the clutch and for SURE takes less mental effort. Watch Marquez ride. He doesn't touch the clutch. Now his bike may have an electronic assist that allows clutchless shifts at ANY moment whether the gear box is loaded or not and has that fancy seamless tranny. BUT still, if your timing is good, you can do it on any bike. You just have to have that sense for feeling when the gearbox is unloaded.

My understanding of electronic assisted shifting: throttle must be closed, when you downshift the electronics coordinate a throttle blip. My takeaway is mechanically the machine is capable, the electronics provide reliable coordination.

When I tested my coordination, the bike was coasting (no brakes) and the blip caused no perceptible lurching when done right (to my surprise).

[OreoGaborio]

When I tested my coordination, the bike was coasting (no brakes) and the blip caused no perceptible lurching when done right (to my surprise).

Yeah, that's where I had issues... When I downshift I'm usually braking (often pretty hard)... and with the two overlapping inputs (brake and throttle) it was tough for me to get the precise throttle blip & timing that my bike wanted in order to give me a smooth clutchless downshift WHILE simultaneously maintaining the brake pressure I wanted.

When I use the clutch I don't need to be precise with the throttle... so I can concentrate on brake input & blip if needed.

Although a throttle blip CAN smooth out the downshift, I primarily only use it to speed up the shifting process and reduce the time it takes to complete the downshift. The clutch (or slipper if equipped) is what I use to smooth it out.

[Paul_E_D]

Now we are getting somewhere. If it weren't a benefit, they wouldn't be developing systems to assist us in doing it. It actually doesn't require a blip in most cases if you can time it accurately. Same as an (non-electronic) upshift, preloading the lever takes a lot of the errors away.

[xsiliconkid]

for downshifts a 2 stroke has a natural full on slipper clutch...its called the motor....no engine braking...

[OreoGaborio]

It actually doesn't require a blip in most cases if you can time it accurately.

Are you saying preload the shifter while you're still on the gas, then it'll click down the second you roll off the throttle?

I love the sound of that approach & wish it would work for me, but there are places at Loudon that I'm already kissing the rev limiter coming into a corner... with no slipper I'll mechanically over-rev. Sad Panda

EDIT: Plus that'll only work for the first downshift... you must be thinking something different.

[Paul_E_D]

for downshifts a 2 stroke has a natural full on slipper clutch...its called the motor....no engine braking...

And it is awesome to ride. Most competitive bikes now have a slipper clutch that makes it feel and behave very similar to a 2 stroke. Some actually engine brake LESS than a 2 stroke! Weeeee!

[Paul_E_D]

Are you saying preload the shifter while you're still on the gas, then it'll click down the second you roll off the throttle?

I love the sound of that approach & wish it would work for me, but there are places at Loudon that I'm already kissing the rev limiter coming into a corner... with no slipper I'll mechanically over-rev. Sad Panda

EDIT: Plus that'll only work for the first downshift... you must be thinking something different.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I guess it's not as simple as that.

Get a slipper clutch FFS. you'll drop right into the 16s easy.

[rolker]

I see zero benefits from clutch less downshifts other then you are risking destroying your transmission.
That's my take in pretty much all bikes you ll find at CCS. At the pro level with the ability to rebuild and/or get technology that all you to do it then fine.

Obviously you haven't tried pushing your brake marker in T1 on a bike where you still need to fit in 4 downshifts before the apex. Fitting in the downshifts is now my limiting factor on how deep I can charge into T1. I couldn't image having to add the clutch in that mix.

[OreoGaborio]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I guess it's not as simple as that.

Get a slipper clutch FFS. you'll drop right into the 16s easy.

lol. I clicked a 15.9 last year. Think I'll see 14's?

I couldn't image having to add the clutch in that mix.

Not that I've ever had to do 4 consecutive downshifts in a tight span, but at NJMP Thunderbolt I had to do two VERY quick downshifts for T5... def took a lotta practice, but I found that if I just brought the lever into the friction zone (instead of all the way to the bar), didn't fully engage it until both downshifts were completed and added a couple small blips to speed up the process I could get em done pretty quick while still braking & tipping in.

[Paul_E_D]

That's awesome. I haven't seen that you guys run consistent 16s yet? But good luck with the 14!!!

[Kurlon]

lol. I clicked a 15.9 last year. Think I'll see 14's?

Better, you'll hit Ludicrous and go Plaid!

[Ductard]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I guess it's not as simple as that.

Get a slipper clutch FFS. you'll drop right into the 16s easy.

I know this isn't a thread about slipper clutches per-se, but they're coming up enough that I had a quick question that may or may not warrant a separate thread:

but if we have an adjustable one, is there a rule of thumb where more or less braking preferable for the track, or is it purely a matter of personal preference?

I could see an advantage to either way, or even the possibility of preferring more engine braking on some tracks and less in others.

Thoughts?

[xsiliconkid]

And it is awesome to ride. Most competitive bikes now have a slipper clutch that makes it feel and behave very similar to a 2 stroke. Some actually engine brake LESS than a 2 stroke! Weeeee!

Many moons ago I raced in desert races on a 4 stroke bike (duc RT450) and in the sand berm switch backs the big Maico 2 stokes would get away from me.
I later tried a 2 stroke and it clicked.
Through the tight downhill berms on a 2 stroke you simply shut the throttle and whip through the sand pilled up berm while on a 4 stroke you have to "manage" the throttle< too little and the back wheel drags and hops and too much has you're spinning out the berm>

[OreoGaborio]

That's awesome. I haven't seen that you guys run consistent 16s yet? But good luck with the 14!!!

Thanks I'm not sure if any of us have clicked 16's yet THIS year but I'm thinkin we'll all be ticking some off at the classic. Pretty sure 14's are straight up outta reach for an SV... Even for Ricky.


... back to your scheduled programming.