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WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

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    Lifer Ductard's Avatar
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    WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    I currently have an '02 520SX that has served me well, but I'm thinking about "upgrading" to a more modern bike (thinking '08ish, but flexible there).

    Budget is in the $4-5K range, with a slight preference for CRF's, because they seem to have the biggest abundance of parts out there.

    Open to discussing street legal bikes, but this is for track use / racing, so I'm not really looking to pay a premium for a bike that can be plated or any of the street goodies that come along with it (lights/speedo, etc.)

    Trade for my 520SX + cash is on the table.

    PM me if you think you have something I'd be interested in.

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    xxaarraa
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Tuning in to see what you end up with.

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    Don't bother me! R7's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    I'm doing the same thing at the moment, you can do a lot with $5k in my opinion.
    Is the only reason you're stuck on the CRF because of the parts available?

    I did a little online searching prior to deciding on what bike I wanted, and it came down to either the KTM 450SX-F or the Yamaha YZ450F. For the past 2-3 years, the Yamaha has had the most powerful engine of all the brands out of the box, the KTM was second. From what I've read, the CRF's have scored pretty low since 08-09 time frame to present...which has me wondering why one would start out with the lowest performance platform out there out of the box?

    I was looking for something 2012 or newer, just a random year range I picked, 6500 budget total.
    I stumbled across a very lightly used 2015 KTM 450SX-F for 5k, new wheels and upgraded brakes were another 1300, I still need sticky rubbers, but the kit did include street tires, tubes and rim strips.

    I hate buying used MX bikes for a couple reasons, they are usually used and abused hard, and MX riders in general seem to take the least amount of care of their bikes...just what I've noticed. There's no doubt the KTM I bought was well used in a short time, I just figured by the wear and tear on the frame/engine cases, that minimal damage was done "if" the owner slacked on maintaining it.

    If your intent is track/race only, I wouldn't even look into anything with a plate. You'll pay a premium for it, it'll be heavier, and likely less powerful.
    Motostrano has a lot of kits available and some great pricing if you decide to buy a bike and build it yourself

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    Lifer Ductard's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by R7 View Post
    I'm doing the same thing at the moment, you can do a lot with $5k in my opinion.
    Is the only reason you're stuck on the CRF because of the parts available?

    I did a little online searching prior to deciding on what bike I wanted, and it came down to either the KTM 450SX-F or the Yamaha YZ450F. For the past 2-3 years, the Yamaha has had the most powerful engine of all the brands out of the box, the KTM was second. From what I've read, the CRF's have scored pretty low since 08-09 time frame to present...which has me wondering why one would start out with the lowest performance platform out there out of the box?

    If you have links to those results, I wouldn't mind taking a look.....but here are my thoughts having owned 1 supermoto that is well set up:

    There are things that are much more important than raw horsepower. Don't downplay ease of finding parts / how common a bike is as a supermoto conversion. It can make all the difference in your race/track weekend if you break a part you can borrow of the 5-10 KTM riders or 10-15 CRF riders at a typical LRRS round vs. being one of 2 guys on a Yamaha (I believe #666 is on a YZ) or the only guy on a Suzuki or Kawi. Oh yeah, and if you don't have a Bridgeport and a TIG welder, you might have trouble finding a bracket that will mount a steering damper to your bike.



    Another important factor is geometry (most people say the KTM's - at least in my bike's range *need* an offset triple clamp or else they're too twitchy) - you probably can't rely on Dirt Rider magazine's shootout of a particular model year to tell you if an MX bike "accidentally" had geometry that worked well on a road course. Prolly best to ask around on a forum like supermotojunkie.com.

    And I'd probably try to figure out how the engine will hold up to high revs for extended periods of time. Again, probably something that people on a forum like SMJ will have thoughts on, at least for bikes that are a couple years old. For example, the KTM RFS engine's bottom end seems to have been its achilles heel. Not enough to make it a bad for a supermoto build, but I've been told they made the crank bearings ~10mm bigger on the mid 2000's to help with that a little bit. Make sure you don't talk to "go-kart track" supermoto riders on this sort of thing. A place like NHMS, or even more so NYST has some long straights that will probably get you to redline in your highest gear.


    WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA-slicks-dirtbike-png

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    Last edited by Ductard; 07-07-15 at 04:55 PM.
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    CRF's weak point is the crank also. Weld and balance is a must for reliability. Falicon or crank works. You can get into the 17's with a stock motor.

    If you buy something set up...plan on it needing motor work. If you buy a dirt bike not set up....plan on it needing motor work. So it seems like buying a used tard is the way to go. Plus resale value on a built tard is on the lower end.

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    Last edited by csmutty; 07-07-15 at 04:51 PM.
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    CRF's weak point is the crank also. Weld and balance is a must for reliability. Falicon or crank works. You can get into the 17's with a stock motor.

    If you buy something set up...plan on it needing motor work. If you buy a dirt bike not set up....plan on it needing motor work. So it seems like buying a used tard is the way to go. Plus resale value on a built tard is on the lower end.
    Spoken like a man that wants to sell me a used 'tard.

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    '12 Ducati 1199 Panigale (track) '08 Honda CRF 250 (ice) '02 KTM 520 SX Supermoto (track)

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    On the geometry front, they ALL need altered offset clamps for Loudon.

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ductard View Post
    Spoken like a man that wants to sell me a used 'tard.
    Hmm...7 grand.

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    Don't bother me! R7's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    On the geometry front, they ALL need altered offset clamps for Loudon.
    They all need geometry work, period. As PK used to say, they all work until you want to go fast.

    KTM got a bad rap from the 560rfs motor, most other rfs motors didn't suffer the same failures, and the newer motors are proving pretty reliable.

    Yes, I used years past MX bike shootouts while researching MX bikes, I want reliability and power. The rest of the bike I know I will have to alter anyways once the pace picks up, no matter what color the bike is.

    I can understand the parts thing, but really what brakes on these things, other than parts you should have as spares anyways if racing?

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by R7 View Post
    I can understand the parts thing, but really what brakes on these things, other than parts you should have as spares anyways if racing?
    Off the top of my head, for a particular brand, I'd say the following parts prolly span 4 model years or so (i.e. CRF '04-08)
    Levers, cables, spacers, clutch basket..

    ....hell, not a motard story, but I broke a chain on a GSXR that broke a clutch actuator pin and borrowed one from somebody with an SV 650....the point is you can bring all the spares you think you need but you will eventually break something you might not have even known existed. If you're on an uncommon bike, you're SOL. On the other hand, I've found LRRS racers to be incredibly helpful if they have a part that will fit your bike.

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    '12 Ducati 1199 Panigale (track) '08 Honda CRF 250 (ice) '02 KTM 520 SX Supermoto (track)

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ductard View Post
    Make sure you don't talk to "go-kart track" supermoto riders on this sort of thing. A place like NHMS, or even more so NYST has some long straights that will probably get you to redline in your highest gear.WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA-slicks-dirtbike-png


    I've tried and ridden a few slicks on 5 different dirt bikes stock rims (80-650cc) on kart tracks, and they do all suck

    you sound like you're gonna do something all proper n shit...very interested to see what that actually is!

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    Last edited by breakdirt916; 07-07-15 at 11:26 PM.
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    TRACK RAT!!!!! Pigman's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA


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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    That's the best year to sumo btw. Largest throttle body made.

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    $4,200 will get you what I'm told is the best engine KTM made - 525smr with a welded crank by Falicon. 2 spare clutch packs, spare wheels and parts for days.

    If you're really serious, get ahold of me.

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    Central Mass Powersports #123

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    Lifer JohnnyV's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Pigman View Post
    My favorite part of that ad is the "never registered" with a plate hanging off the rear fender in the pics

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Pigman View Post
    Hmmm...looks good but doesn't appear to be "race ready". I'm concerned the crank/geometry/suspension work might put me overBudget...

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ductard View Post
    Hmmm...looks good but doesn't appear to be "race ready". I'm concerned the crank/geometry/suspension work might put me overBudget...
    I wouldn't worry that much about geometry. I'm running with stock triples.

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    Lifer lrrs313's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    I wouldn't worry that much about geometry. I'm running with stock triples.
    Pretty sure Sweeney was in the 18s on a bike with stock exhaust, stock triples, stock suspension, stock motor, just an oversize brake rotor (Clark's B bike 2 seasons ago). So yeah, it can be done.

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    Lifer Ductard's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by lrrs313 View Post
    Pretty sure Sweeney was in the 18s on a bike with stock exhaust, stock triples, stock suspension, stock motor, just an oversize brake rotor (Clark's B bike 2 seasons ago). So yeah, it can be done.
    I guess the thing is that I have a bike that is well set up, just chasing a couple more horsepower.....

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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ductard View Post
    I guess the thing is that I have a bike that is well set up, just chasing a couple more horsepower.....
    Stupid question, but wouldn't it be easier to look for more power in your current mount? KTMs have a much different feel than the Japanese bikes, and you're going to be looking at a good amount of upgrading to get the same power out of a 450 that you're getting out of your 520 unless you get a new generation KTM or Yamaha.

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    Lifer Ductard's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by lrrs313 View Post
    Stupid question, but wouldn't it be easier to look for more power in your current mount? KTMs have a much different feel than the Japanese bikes, and you're going to be looking at a good amount of upgrading to get the same power out of a 450 that you're getting out of your 520 unless you get a new generation KTM or Yamaha.
    Hmmm...not a stupid question from where I sit.

    Based on what other people said on my re-jetting thread, I thought the 520 would always be short on power vs. the "new generation 450's"...but my initial internet research on dyno results on the new 450's and peak torque/hp of the 520 (haven't found dyno results for it) don't seem to support that.

    I'm certainly no master on squeezing power out of an engine, and I think the 520 is set up great, so if getting a newer bike isn't going to give me power gains then I'm all for keeping what I've got.

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    Lifer lrrs313's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ductard View Post
    Hmmm...not a stupid question from where I sit.

    Based on what other people said on my re-jetting thread, I thought the 520 would always be short on power vs. the "new generation 450's"...but my initial internet research on dyno results on the new 450's and peak torque/hp of the 520 (haven't found dyno results for it) don't seem to support that.

    I'm certainly no master on squeezing power out of an engine, and I think the 520 is set up great, so if getting a newer bike isn't going to give me power gains then I'm all for keeping what I've got.
    Get in touch with Tyler Sweeney. He had a 520 or 525 that was one of the most powerful motards on the track (it was between him and Eric Paquette's fuel injected CR500). It wasn't as reliable as I would like, but it just shows the potential is there. Pretty sure a mild build will give you what you're looking for and maintain reliability. Probably going to be a lot cheaper than setting up a newer bike and then getting the power out of it.

    Just remember, increased power usually comes with decreased longevity. You can get 75 hp out of that motor, but things start breaking a lot faster.

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    Lifer Ductard's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by lrrs313 View Post
    Get in touch with Tyler Sweeney. He had a 520 or 525 that was one of the most powerful motards on the track (it was between him and Eric Paquette's fuel injected CR500). It wasn't as reliable as I would like, but it just shows the potential is there. Pretty sure a mild build will give you what you're looking for and maintain reliability. Probably going to be a lot cheaper than setting up a newer bike and then getting the power out of it.

    Just remember, increased power usually comes with decreased longevity. You can get 75 hp out of that motor, but things start breaking a lot faster.

    Yeah, I put a 12.5:1 piston in it last year and I've got a hotcam that I haven't gotten around to putting in yet. Before I put the cam in I wanted to put some fresh crank bearings in it as "cheap insurance" ...somebody on KTMTalk said something about conical valve springs being a good idea but sort of went dark on any of my followup questions.

    What's the best way to get in touch with Tyler Sweeney? I don't think I've met him. Is he on NESR?

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  24. #24
    xxaarraa
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by lrrs313 View Post
    ...You can get 75 hp out of that motor, but things start breaking a lot faster.
    Really? A single cylinder that's designed to put out ~50 hp can be tweaked to make 75 hp? That's a 50% increase over designed output.

    I am not disagreeing with you, I do not know KTMs at all. Just really surprised.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 07-10-15 at 12:06 PM.

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    Lifer lrrs313's Avatar
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    Re: WTB - Supermoto (track, not street, pref CRF 450) - Boston, MA

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Really? A single cylinder that's designed to put out ~50 hp can be tweaked to make 75 hp? That's a 50% increase over designed output.

    I am not disagreeing with you, I do not know KTMs at all. Just really surprised.
    My 560 SMR made 60 on Rob's Dyno, and that was bone stock with a worn piston. There's a lot of potential in those motors, it's just a question of how long you want them to stay running before something breaks.

    As for getting in touch with Sweeney, PM Adam (lrrs428 on here). I don't have his number, but Adam can get you in touch with him.

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