[bentbryan]

Originally posted by hohum
When government sanctions one religion (but not another) its inherently choosing sides, which violates the seperation of church and state inherent in freedom of religion clauses in the Constitution.

Its that simple.

Do I really care if Texas has Jesus Day? Nope, not one whit. I expect it from those rednecks Can I make the argument that the state overstepped its bounds in the sanctioning of a religion? Sure I can.

'Freedom of religion' does not mean 'freedom from religion'. And having a 'Jesus Day' does not mean the government is sanctioning christianity or catholicism. It simply means the local government recognizes said day of observation. That's it. Bush is a man of faith so naturally he endorses it.

There's nothing in there about excluding other religious beliefs from observing some sort of 'holiday', if you will. Do you know for certain that there are no other religious days of observation (of other faiths) that are recognized by the government? Or more importantly, if they are prevented from doing so?

What did you guys think of the situation in California (I believe, I forget which school) where the Koran was REQUIRED reading for acceptance into the program?

[hohum]

Originally posted by bentbryan
'Freedom of religion' does not mean 'freedom from religion'.

Ummm, yes it does. It means I am free to practice my religion without the state forcing someone else's religion down my throat.

Originally posted by bentbryan
And having a 'Jesus Day' does not mean the government is sanctioning christianity or catholicism.

OK, so what is the state sanctioning if not Christianity?

Originally posted by bentbryan
What did you guys think of the situation in California (I believe, I forget which school) where the Koran was REQUIRED reading for acceptance into the program?

Don't really remember the specifics of that case, but requiring students to read religious texts is entirely different from requiring them to endorse them. In my high school I took a comparative religions course in which I read both the Koran and the Bible (neither of which are a "good book" to me), and I don't particularly see how you could study something like that without reading the respective texts... so in certain circumstances I consider required reading of religious texts acceptable.

[bentbryan]

Originally posted by hohum
Ummm, yes it does. It means I am free to practice my religion without the state forcing someone else's religion down my throat.

You misunderstood me. It means that religion (pick your faith) is recognized by the state. That's it! Not sanctioned, but recognized.

[TheIglu]

Highsider and hohum, next time beers are on me

Ben, wanna get in on some of this? Seems like we need a bit more logic and thinking instead of "convictions".


The rest of you? YOUR VENGEFUL GOD WILL DAMN YOU TO AN ETERNITY OF WRATH IN THE BOWELS OF HELL FOR LETTING ME DISLIKE JESUS DAY. REPENT!



I suppose we should throw a Moses day, that wouldn't be bad either. Jonh day? Paul day? Hell! Lets have a nationally recognized "Christian Day"! Hee-haw!

Martin Luther day! We sure do have a lot of protestants in the hiz-ouse.

No Miss. Tree, I don't think I'm goin overboard on this one. I still can't get where you guys are coming from as educated individuals. There is no REASON to have this day. You have Christmas, that should be plenty.

[The KING]

Originally posted by hohum
Ummm, yes it does. It means I am free to practice my religion without the state forcing someone else's religion down my throat.

ok, who says you're not free to practice your religion? Why don't you tell us how exactly you're being forced. You obviously have the choice to NOT observe the day. Soldiers are not breaking down your door with machine guns forcing you to get on your knees to pray, nor will you suffer any consequence for not observing the day. i fail to see how this 'forces' anything?

OK, so what is the state sanctioning if not Christianity?

Refer to above. I agree the state is, in fact, sanctioning Christianity, BUT, and here's the important point, there are NO negative reverberations should you choose not to observe it.


This is a great example of democracy at work, the majority have spoken, the majority currently, effectively, rule.

[highsider]

The point, IMO, is this....

No politician, in his official capacity, should be endorsing any religion. If he wants to do it on his/her own time, I'm cool with that. But he was on the State's dime when he made Jesus Day, spent State tax dollars on publicizing, etc.

Once we mix politics and religion, we open Pandora's Box. Where do we draw the line between a politician endorsing Jesus Day, and a politician endorsing some sort of witchcraft? I realize that to most of us, thats quite a stretch, but I think it is the type of thing we can expect from mixing politics and religion. Its like mixing whiskey and bike keys.

[bentbryan]

Originally posted by TheIglu
There is no REASON to have this day. You have Christmas, that should be plenty.

Well gee, since YOU see no reason to have this day, I guess no-one should either.

[bentbryan]

Originally posted by TheIglu
Ben, wanna get in on some of this? Seems like we need a bit more logic and thinking instead of "convictions".

Gimmie a break. You're reaction to this whole 'Jesus Day' is %100 knee-jerk. You're sitting there patting yourself on the back with your 'logic and thinking' and yet won't even try to answer my question.

[bentbryan]

Originally posted by highsider
The point, IMO, is this....

No politician, in his official capacity, should be endorsing any religion. If he wants to do it on his/her own time, I'm cool with that. But he was on the State's dime when he made Jesus Day, spent State tax dollars on publicizing, etc.

Once we mix politics and religion, we open Pandora's Box. Where do we draw the line between a politician endorsing Jesus Day, and a politician endorsing some sort of witchcraft?

Well then, WTF about Christmas? You guys have NO argument. Oh that's right! Clayton said Christmas was enough!

And I would seriously doubt that 'Jesus Day' cost more than the sheet of paper it was printed on. If you doubt it, prove me wrong. Do some fact checking!

[TheIglu]

Your reasoning for having it: people want it.

WHY?

We already lean heavily to the Christian side of things in our government. Why, other than the majority of the population, would be increase our onvolvement in religion?

I guess it comes down to what you feel our government should be. Likeable for most of the people, or fair to all the people.

I don't think we should have official religious holidays.

[highsider]

Originally posted by bentbryan
Well then, WTF about Christmas? You guys have NO argument. Oh that's right! Clayton said Christmas was enough!

And I would seriously doubt that 'Jesus Day' cost more than the sheet of paper it was printed on. If you doubt it, prove me wrong. Do some fact checking!

I.......aw fuck it, I give up. Never mind.:

[WildBill]

Originally posted by TheIglu
Your reasoning for having it: people want it.

WHY?

We already lean heavily to the Christian side of things in our government. Why, other than the majority of the population, would be increase our onvolvement in religion?

I guess it comes down to what you feel our government should be. Likeable for most of the people, or fair to all the people.

I don't think we should have official religious holidays.

FAIR TO ALL PEOPLE how is this not fair ,observe, don't observe, its up to you.You really need to get off your high horse you are one person that for some reason your upset about a Jesus Day in fuckin TEXAS what the fuck. Why do you care what they do in TEXAS? OH I know GW was Governor

You probably have a problem with Veterans Day because you don't believe in War or Flag day because well we have the 4th of July isn't that enough.

You don't like offical Holidays fine don't observe them,but don't get your panties in a bunch because other (MOST) people do.

[The KING]

you have to understand, Clayton is an ignorant heathen who spends his time watching zombie movies and sleeping in cars.... I heard he's working on some sort of manifesto, for which when he finishes, he's going to take his new 4WD (FOREIGN TRUCK AT THAT ) into the NH woodlands to join RandyO's Federalist Militia.

[bentbryan]

Originally posted by TheIglu
I don't think we should have official religious holidays.

So we should get rid of Christmas and Easter?

[TheIglu]

Originally posted by The KING
you have to understand, Clayton is an ignorant heathen who spends his time watching zombie movies and sleeping in cars.... I heard he's working on some sort of manifesto, for which when he finishes, he's going to take his new 4WD (FOREIGN TRUCK AT THAT ) into the NH woodlands to join RandyO's Federalist Militia.

Randy, he knows our plan. We must dispose of him....

[TheIglu]

Originally posted by bentbryan
So we should get rid of Christmas and Easter?

Yes. As a federally acknowledged holiday, yes. I'm am for removing any religion from our government.

[The KING]

Originally posted by TheIglu
Yes. As a federally acknowledged holiday, yes. I'm am for removing any religion from our government.

then all members of the government will have to be confirmed, and practicing atheists.

OR,

we can breed a group of people to be the government, kinda like the matrix...

[hohum]

Originally posted by The KING
then all members of the government will have to be confirmed, and practicing atheists.

OR,

we can breed a group of people to be the government, kinda like the matrix...

Nah, they can be whatever religion they want to be, they just can't be allowed to institutionalize their religion in our government in any way shape or form!

[The KING]

Originally posted by hohum
Nah, they can be whatever religion they want to be, they just can't be allowed to institutionalize their religion in our government in any way shape or form!

A-HA!

I KNEW someone would chime in on that....

Do you really think it's possible for anyone who has evolved with religion in their life to make truly unbiased decisions in government? And if so, what guarantees would you have against such possibilities?

[hohum]

Originally posted by The KING
A-HA!

I KNEW someone would chime in on that....

Do you really think it's possible for anyone who has evolved with religion in their life to make truly unbiased decisions in government? And if so, what guarantees would you have against such possibilities?

I don't expect them to make unbiased decisions. In fact, quite the opposite. I expect them to let their religion guide them in how they act, how they vote, and how they work for the people. HOWEVER, letting religion guide your action is VERY different than officially institutionalizing religion in the goverment. Explicit vs. Implicit. People are people, implicit association with religious morals is unavoidable.

[The KING]

Originally posted by hohum
I don't expect them to make unbiased decisions. In fact, quite the opposite. I expect them to let their religion guide them in how they act, how they vote, and how they work for the people. HOWEVER, letting religion guide your action is VERY different than officially institutionalizing religion in the goverment. Explicit vs. Implicit. People are people, implicit association with religious morals is unavoidable.

either way, the inherent operation is biased! guided by religious principles versus "institutionalizing"?

in the government bar, jack daniels is still a bottle on the shelf even if you drink a virgin coke...

[hohum]

Originally posted by The KING
either way, the inherent operation is biased! guided by religious principles versus "institutionalizing"?

in the government bar, jack daniels is still a bottle on the shelf even if you drink a virgin coke...

No way to eliminate bias. Its there for eternity. The question becomes whether we want to engrave that bias in stone, or simply acknowledge its presence.

[benVFR]

Hehe.. I did a god job ignoring this one.

Why does Jesus day, Christmas, Easter, whatever need to be a federal holiday if not to recognize/endorse a particular religion.

Look at Orthodox or Hassidic Jews. Many of them observe a large number of their own religious holidays that the rest of us don't care about. They close their businesses, they close their schools if they need to/want to, and it doesn't bother any of us.

Christmas, Easter, etc.. don't need to be any different. Companies who have a high percentage of Christian employees will still be free to offer a holiday to their employees if they feel like it, just like right now they are free to not offer a Holiday on an important Jewish or Muslim day.

I think the only real benefit of making a day like Christmas or Easter a religious holiday is because a large # of people in this country want to celebrate their religion (or their materialistic consumer deisres) on those days, and a large number of the corporations in this country would not offer a holiday unless forced to, because they want to work their employees into the ground. The government is basically stepping in and allowing these people the opportunity to celebrate their faith without being persecuted for it.

The question is just how much the government has to do to protect one's right to faith, without choosing one faith over another. The argument for a national holiday for Ramadan or Passover is seemingly just as strong as for Easter or Christmas.

There really is no argument for "Jesus Day" though. This is just another lame thing that GWB did that makes no sense. I guess he forgot that Christmas and Easter are already "Jesus day", and maybe he just thinks they are about Santa Claus and Chocolate eggs.. I could almost see it as arrogance that he thinks he's going to create his own holiday and that the actual meaningful holidays aren't good enough.

Ben

[The KING]

Originally posted by benVFR
(or their materialistic consumer deisres)

What is your inherent problem with this, gas guzzling SUV's, that sort of thing? It's like a recurring "Ben-thing".

[The KING]

Originally posted by hohum
No way to eliminate bias. Its there for eternity. The question becomes whether we want to engrave that bias in stone, or simply acknowledge its presence.

i guess, in the end, it all depends upon the majority in power at the time, and what their philosophies might be.

again, THE MOB controls...