[benVFR]

No.. see I never said America is the great opressor or anything like that, you've made that up.

But you think we've done nothing wrong to those people. We've done at least as much wrong to them as they've done to us. As long as people like you continue to deny that, it will always be too easy for us to justify killing more and more of them because they are evil, and they will never stop wanting to kill us.

Many people in the middle east believe that we are 100% evil, that is why I say your mind works exactly like yours. They need to realize that we are not totally evil even though we've screwed with their countries, and we need to realize that they are not totally evil either even though they've tried to retaliate.

So is it 100% OK that we accidentally killed thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians who had nothing to do with Saddam's government or military? It's 100% OK since it was just an accident?

[odduc]

Fine, Ben, you win. I am not going to continue this argument because you have contradicted yourself in several of your statements. I know you will deny this, but logical people will see it.

Why don't you go buddy-up with this Ward Churchill character, I'm sure the two of you would get along swimingly.

Have a nice day.

[SEVENSGT]

firstly I didn't see anything in Irrs post that said kill all people from the middles east, nor did I see him say all middle easterners were evil, what I did see was he said

the perpetrators are always 100% guilty. PERIOD, end of story. Osama bin-laden and his group of crazed lunatics are 100% guilty. The people who died by their hand, are 100% innocent.

you kill people by terror and you are evil, you die from terror and you are innocent, simple right....

But you think we've done nothing wrong to those people. We've done at least as much wrong to them as they've done to us.

You're right we did, we trained them, gave them weapons, and taught them how to liberate themselves, so yes we did alot to and for them

Many people in the middle east believe that we are 100% evil, that is why I say your mind works exactly like yours.

Indeed they think we are evil, but they think we ALL are evil, me, you, your family, my children, irrs dog, you car, your mountain bike, that's the diff you freak(yes I did lower myself to name calling, who the fuck cares )

[benVFR]

I didn't contradict myself, my position is just less consistent than yours, in my view there are shades of gray, people can be partially evil and partially good. Maybe that is too complex for you.

I fully agree your view of the world is much more consistent:

- All Americans are good
- All terrorists, middle easterners, etc.. are bad

- Any time we kill middle easterners, it is good and right because we are good and they are evil

- Any time they kill any of us, it is wrong and evil because we are good and they are evil.

- Anything we do to manipulate their countries governments or economies is good because we are good, even if causes indirect harm to the people in those countries

- Anything they do that effects our economy or our government is evil because they are bad

If you look at things that way you can view everything the same way, not have to deal with any tough issues, and sleep easily.

[SEVENSGT]

Originally posted by benVFR
I didn't contradict myself, my position is just less consistent than yours, in my view there are shades of gray, people can be partially evil and partially good. Maybe that is too complex for you.

I fully agree your view of the world is much more consistent:

- All Americans are good
- All terrorists, middle easterners, etc.. are bad

- Any time we kill middle easterners, it is good and right because we are good and they are evil

- Any time they kill any of us, it is wrong and evil because we are good and they are evil.

- Anything we do to manipulate their countries governments or economies is good because we are good, even if causes indirect harm to the people in those countries

- Anything they do that effects our economy or our government is evil because they are bad

If you look at things that way you can view everything the same way, not have to deal with any tough issues, and sleep easily.

OH MY GOOD LORD, are you a flipping fool, or do you really think you're right..
I never said, or felt ALL MIDDLEEASTERNERS ARE EVIL (or that they are all terroists), I never said ALL AMERICANS ARE GOOD (I just support my country, by believeing we are trying{read TRYING} to do right by the world)... I think murder is wrong no matter who does the killing. When we manipulate their economies, that usaully means we have a part in thier economy, which across the world we do.. Anyone that effects our economy, or gov't is usaully trying to hurt these great states..

I have 2 children, and every night I can't help but think what the issues are going to be when they grow up, so get off your fucking high horse with this gray area shit, and let me know when you want to be part of a democratic society, not a socilist one

[odduc]

Ben, you are hopeless liberal panzy. There is right and wrong, good and evil, black and white. Perhaps you don't realize that while you're busy micro-analyzing each and every situation, you're missing the big picture. But, that is what truly separates us, I don't have the time to see things as you and the Ward Churchills of the world. I know what constitutes good, decent and civil behavior, you haven't got a clue. You're too busy trying to understand and accept everyone, regardless of how they might view you, even if those people still hate you. Moral relativism is going to be the death of our society and if you keep hanging on to that bogus theory, you will go down with the ship. Maybe, I have not articulated myself in the best of ways on this post, but I hope you get the point. If you don't, I'm not surprised.

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by lrrs167
Ben, you are hopeless liberal panzy. There is right and wrong, good and evil, black and white. Perhaps you don't realize that while you're busy micro-analyzing each and every situation, you're missing the big picture. But, that is what truly separates us, I don't have the time to see things as you and the Ward Churchills of the world. I know what constitutes good, decent and civil behavior, you haven't got a clue. You're too busy trying to understand and accept everyone, regardless of how they might view you, even if those people still hate you. Moral relativism is going to be the death of our society and if you keep hanging on to that bogus theory, you will go down with the ship. Maybe, I have not articulated myself in the best of ways on this post, but I hope you get the point. If you don't, I'm not surprised.

Back with the empty rhetoric again? I thought you were swearing off this stuff for a while.

What's the point of this sort of talk anyway? I could just as easily say that forced polarization is going to be the death of our society and that I understand how to see both sides of an issue where you're still stuck in your Good vs Evil fantasyland. There's no point there, if you're not going to talk about a specific issue it seems like you're just jerking off to your inflated sense of superiority.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
Back with the empty rhetoric again? I thought you were swearing off this stuff for a while.

What's the point of this sort of talk anyway? I could just as easily say that forced polarization is going to be the death of our society and that I understand how to see both sides of an issue where you're still stuck in your Good vs Evil fantasyland. There's no point there, if you're not going to talk about a specific issue it seems like you're just jerking off to your inflated sense of superiority.

"hey pot...what's up man...been awhile" says the kettle

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by bigred875
"hey pot...what's up man...been awhile" says the kettle

What exactly are you talking about? You accused the anti-war folks of focusing on rhetoric and ignoring the facts in this thread. I offered to debate facts with you, in fact I addressed some of the issues you raised in that thread. But you didn't seem to want to engage the issues then. Who's focused on rhetoric?

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
What exactly are you talking about? You accused the anti-war folks of focusing on rhetoric and ignoring the facts in this thread. I offered to debate facts with you, in fact I addressed some of the issues you raised in that thread. But you didn't seem to want to engage the issues then. Who's focused on rhetoric?

you are in the frontlines of the blame america first crowd...

doesn't matter what happen...we must have initiated it....

you refuse to listen to anything anyone has to say other then disect and then harp on irrelivant details and avoid the greater issue...

[bigred875]

Please explain to me what we did to deserve the last 8 terrorist attacks against us?

[legalspeed]

OBL is out for us because he thought Saudi Arabia should have kicked Iraq out of Kuwait.

Saudi Arabia's reaction to OBL: "Yeah, right! Pound sand."

That pissed him off.

[odduc]

Back with the empty rhetoric again?

It is not empty rhetoric. But, then again, I wouldn't expect you to understand as you fall into the moral relativism crowd.

BTW, I don't claim moral superiority to anyone, I simply know I'm right. (no funny icons needed, because I'm not kidding)

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by legalspeed
OBL is out for us because he thought Saudi Arabia should have kicked Iraq out of Kuwait.

Saudi Arabia's reaction to OBL: "Yeah, right! Pound sand."

That pissed him off.

I don't understand, didn't SA provide staging for UN operations during Desert Storm?

I've read the transcripts of the OBL tapes and it seems that the justification for 9/11 came from a perceived backing of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Perceived because yes, the U.S. has provided military support to Israel over the years, but it seems that we were trying to help negotiate the removal of the israelis from lebanon, at least from what I've read (I was 2 at the time, so I have to rely on historians).

It's really hard for me to process all the information about Muslim/Jewish conflict and U.S. involvement, there's just so many conflicting accounts of the last 50 years.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
I don't understand, didn't SA provide staging for UN operations during Desert Storm?

I've read the transcripts of the OBL tapes and it seems that the justification for 9/11 came from a perceived backing of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Perceived because yes, the U.S. has provided military support to Israel over the years, but it seems that we were trying to help negotiate the removal of the israelis from lebanon, at least from what I've read (I was 2 at the time, so I have to rely on historians).

It's really hard for me to process all the information about Muslim/Jewish conflict and U.S. involvement, there's just so many conflicting accounts of the last 50 years.

Is this what you are saying is a legitimate reason to them to kill our 100% INNOCENT civilians?

[legalspeed]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
I don't understand, didn't SA provide staging for UN operations during Desert Storm?

It's really hard for me to process all the information about Muslim/Jewish conflict and U.S. involvement, there's just so many conflicting accounts of the last 50 years.

I hear ya bro...

Yes, it seems Saudi Arabia did not think their army was strong enough to evict Iraq.

I do not believe this is what most of the muslim hatered is about, more so; about the crusades and religious wars. I think Isreal is just the latest excuse, as they poured over the borders and Isreal repelled them.

I've often wondered why we can't ring a giant bell and say that's it, no more border changes.

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by bigred875
Is this what you are saying is a legitimate reason to them to kill our 100% INNOCENT civilians?

Absolutely not. Targetting civilians is morally reprehensible. But we do it to reduce american casualties all the time, sure there are civilians in the cities but there are enemy troops too. How many bombs were dropped on baghdad, 100,000? How many civilians died there? If we're a representative democracy, and our government elects to bomb cities, what percentage of responsibility falls on the constituents?

You believe we're justified in killing civilians in the middle east because of a perceived threat to us, they believe they're justified in killing civilians here because of a perceived threat to them. I believe you're both wrong, but who cares what I think.

What's notable is, 9/11 is just a fraction of a percentage of the civilian deaths caused by U.S. military action in the other parts of the world. We're only shocked and horrified by it because we've never seen real suffering, noone has waged a foreign war on U.S. soil in the last 200 years. We don't feel the consequences of war here, we project them. I don't think the author really felt that the people in the world trade center deserved to die, it was more of a reactionary message that tried to drive home the point that this is just a fraction the suffering we inflict on other countries every day. It was a point poorly made, but who would have read the article if it was just about suffering iraqis?

[RandyO]

yup, how many other countries have actually nuked another?

[SEVENSGT]

Originally posted by RandyO
yup, how many other countries have actually nuked another?

and heroshima wasn't a reaction to pearl harbor..............

[highsider]

Wow, these threads always get so philisophical and whatnot. Its also interesting how divided the political parties are these days; I wonder if this is a new thing, or was it always that way?

All I have to say is this: Ward Churchill is a fucking asshole for saying the things he said. Being an employee of a company that may or may not have "anti-whatever" policies doesn't make you a Nazi - it makes you a person earning a living. I dont always agree with what my employers do, but I still need a check at the end of each week, so do my job.

And Randy and Ben - Ward Churchill may have something of value to say once in a while (though I doubt it), but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[SEVENSGT]

Originally posted by highsider
Wow, these threads always get so philisophical and whatnot. Its also interesting how divided the political parties are these days; I wonder if this is a new thing, or was it always that way?

All I have to say is this: Ward Churchill is a fucking asshole for saying the things he said. Being an employee of a company that may or may not have "anti-whatever" policies doesn't make you a Nazi - it makes you a person earning a living. I dont always agree with what my employers do, but I still need a check at the end of each week, so do my job.

And Randy and Ben - Ward Churchill may have something of value to say once in a while (though I doubt it), but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

That's why I like ya man, seems like twice a day you're right too

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by SEVENSGT
and heroshima wasn't a reaction to pearl harbor..............

That's exactly the point. Hiroshima (and Nagasaki, you knew we dropped two bombs right?) was a reaction to Pearl Harbor in the same way that the World Trade Center bombings were a reaction to US military action in Lebanon. Except, instead of 2,000 dead innocent civilians, you had more like a quarter million, plus at least another quarter million suffering from radiation aftereffects. What, you think those half million Japanese were any less innocent than the people in the towers? Do you actually think they suffered less? If so, you might google the effects of radiation poisoning sometime. Not exactly a pleasant way to die.

What's particularly revolting is that despite being one of the most significantly horrific events of our time, you can't even spell Hiroshima. Shows you what kind of effect the suffering of innocents outside our borders has on the average of American.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
That's exactly the point. Hiroshima (and Nagasaki, you knew we dropped two bombs right?) was a reaction to Pearl Harbor in the same way that the World Trade Center bombings were a reaction to US military action in Lebanon. Except, instead of 2,000 dead innocent civilians, you had more like a quarter million, plus at least another quarter million suffering from radiation aftereffects. What, you think those half million Japanese were any less innocent than the people in the towers? Do you actually think they suffered less? If so, you might google the effects of radiation poisoning sometime. Not exactly a pleasant way to die.

What's particularly revolting is that despite being one of the most significantly horrific events of our time, you can't even spell Hiroshima. Shows you what kind of effect the suffering of innocents outside our borders has on the average of American.

yup..... that's it right on the button, the US of A has committed the two single worse atrosities in the history of mankind

[SEVENSGT]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
That's exactly the point. Hiroshima (and Nagasaki, you knew we dropped two bombs right?) was a reaction to Pearl Harbor in the same way that the World Trade Center bombings were a reaction to US military action in Lebanon. Except, instead of 2,000 dead innocent civilians, you had more like a quarter million, plus at least another quarter million suffering from radiation aftereffects. What, you think those half million Japanese were any less innocent than the people in the towers? Do you actually think they suffered less? If so, you might google the effects of radiation poisoning sometime. Not exactly a pleasant way to die.

What's particularly revolting is that despite being one of the most significantly horrific events of our time, you can't even spell Hiroshima. Shows you what kind of effect the suffering of innocents outside our borders has on the average of American.

Apples and oranges,(yes I do know about nagasaki, you shouldn't assume people don't know world history).

"The first atomic explosion was conducted, as a test, at Alamogordo, New Mexico, on July 16, 1945. The energy released from this explosion was equivalent to that released by the detonation of 20,000 tons of TNT. Near the end of World War II, on August 6, 1945, the United States dropped the first atomic bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. It followed with a second bomb against the city of Nagasaki on August 9. According to U.S. estimates, 60,000 to 70,000 people were killed by the Hiroshima bomb, called “Little Boy,” and about 40,000 by the bomb dropped on Nagasaki, called “Fat Man.” Japan agreed to Allied terms of surrender on August 14th."

Perceived because yes, the U.S. has provided military support to Israel over the years, but it seems that we were trying to help negotiate the removal of the israelis from lebanon, at least from what I've read (I was 2 at the time, so I have to rely on historians).

After the cease-fire, the PLO again made strikes against Israel, and in June 1982 Israel retaliated by bombing Lebanon. The bombing inflicted heavy damage on the PLO’s militias, many of whom fled the country as Israel invaded and advanced on Beirut. With Israel’s support, Bashir Gemayel, a Christian, was elected president in August, but three weeks later he was killed by a bomb. Many Western governments believed Syria was responsible for the assassination. Partly in response, the Israeli-supported Phalange militia, with Israeli knowledge, massacred an estimated 800 to 1,500 Palestinian refugees in September. After a large international outcry, an Israeli commission reprimanded its leaders for failing to prevent the massacre. Bashir was replaced by his brother, Amin Gemayel, who in May 1983 concluded a peace treaty with Israel. The treaty provoked a violent backlash from Druze and PLO forces. With Syrian support they attacked the Phalange militia and Lebanese army, which had jointly occupied parts of the country.

[SEVENSGT]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
What's particularly revolting is that despite being one of the most significantly horrific events of our time, you can't even spell Hiroshima. Shows you what kind of effect the suffering of innocents outside our borders has on the average of American.

wow just saw this, sorry I didn't spell it right, what was I thinking just typing real quick and shit, next time I'm gonna spend all day makin sure I dot my X's and croos my I's