[odduc]

So my wife completed our tax return, last night, and we were both shocked to find that we owed $2800. WTF?????
We paid in $11,000 and we still have to pay an additional $2800. Of course, I am not including the additional $10K that we paid in Social Security tax and the $3K paid in Medicare tax. Additionally, we paid over $5K in property taxes. And, we cannot claim the $600 that we paid for tolls any longer because we make too much.
Our gross income was about $107K and our taxable income amounted to $87K. We are not "wealthy", unless you were to ask a Democrat politician.

Anyway, is anyone else as angry as I am about our confiscatory, and wholly un-Constitutional tax system? What will it take for hard-working Americans to revolt against it? How much more of the money that we earn does the government need? What will it take for real tax reform to occur in this country?

The politicians(Dems or GOP) don't care because they do not seem to be subject to the same tax codes as us, nor do they have to be concerned about Social Security because they already have a plan similar to what the President is proposing. Additionally, they have the best healthcare available, at no charge to them thanks to the taxpayers.

So, why would ANYONE vote for ANY politician who, during campaigning, proposes a tax increase? If we take into consideration that the Federal government takes in BILLIONS of dollars EVERY-SINGLE-DAY, why do they need any more? And, more importantly, what exactly is being done to properly account for every dollar taken in and insure that it is going to the right place?

I know that I probably sound incredibly simple-minded and altruistic, but seriously folks, WTF?????????

[bigred875]

Income tax was supposed to go away right?...just like the tolls on the Mass pike....

I think it would be fair to say it will never go away and probably keep on increasing....there are just too many people that dont want to take care of themselves and are "entitled" to my money....

Let the welfare generations live on!!

[odduc]

I agree with you, Red, that a big part of the problem is that there is too much of an "entitlement" society that has grown out of this tax and spend system. When people realize that they can collect a check and do nothing without an incentive to do for themselves, they will continue to vote for the politicians that will maintian the entitlement programs. But, at what point does that balance begin to shift to a point that there are not enough workers who pay the taxes to maintain the entitlement programs? Because, we all know that when you give someone something for nothing, they will never be satisfied, but rather continue to get as much as they can for nothing.

I expect a revolution within the next 50 years. There is no way that our society can continue on this path without real reform.

[benVFR]

You gotta look at the government budgets if you are really going to get all bent out of shape.

I pay a lot of taxes too, and it does suck, but you are still dreaming if you think you're not wealthy. Your household income is well over 2x the national average, that is wealthy to a lot of us. To someone who makes $30k a year you are loaded. I think it is part of our culture, we are agressive, hard working people in this country and we always want more, so we never see ourselves as wealthy.

But anyway the "entitlement" people is a gross simplification. The biggest spender of your tax dollars is your beloved military. Some good stuff has happened as a result of all the military spending over the last few years but it has cost a ton. If you were to start going through the line items in the your local, state, or federal budgets you'd probably have a harder time figuring out what to cut then when you simplify the whole thing and just rant. Do you have kids? Are you going to cut the school funding greatly? You like to drive/ride around on the roads, are you going to cut the funding for that? You want social security when you retire? Are you going to cut that? You going to cut the medicare that your grandmother is on? It gets harder and hard when you look at the details. The issue is probably "slop" in lots of programs.

The deficit is a big problem and the country has major financial issues right now. Just saying "no new taxes" is not going to make the problems go away unfortunately. And the problem isn't just in the government, it is a private problem as well, there are a lot of private citizens who are in major debt in this country.

Bush sits there and tell you no new taxes and you are happy but do you ever consider the deficit he has rung up? Do you ever consider that up till this year he hasn't tried to control spending at all? Republicans and Democrats are both really bad, the Republicans are not a "small government" party anymore, even if they try and tell us they are.

At some point a ton of the spending is going to have to go away, and even then we can't cut taxes to the bone or we'll never be able to pay off all those debts.

[odduc]

Ya know what, Ben? As much as I totally disagree with your politics, I agree with you on one point: the "slop" that exists within our government. If we were to cut that out, we could easily wipe out the deficit and never have to increase taxes. But, I must disagree with you when you go into the "scare tatics" of the left and start talking of cutting "grandmas medicare" and cutting funding for roads and transportation, etc. Talk about a simplification?!?!?!

But, anyway I have a real hard time with paying a higher percentage of taxes simply because I have worked harder and achieved a higher income level. A flat tax is fair to everyone. A usage tax, as currently proposed by a few brave conservatives, is fair. A graduated tax, as is currently in place, is NOT fair. Penalizing achievment is not right.

As far as the entitlement society, you are hiding your head in the sand if you don't see this as a major problem.

I will agree with you that the military is the largest spender of tax dollars. But, defense is the primary function of government.

[odduc]

BTW, don't even get me started on Social Security. No, I am not counting on that as retirement income, I can plan for my own retirement, thank you very much. I will, through my own careful planning, be able to retire with my wife far earlier than the Federal retirement age of 67. Social Security may not be available for me to draw from when I become eligible, and that's fine by me other than the fact that I will have contributed thousands of $$$$ to never see a nickel back.

[benVFR]

The point is I am sure there is stuff you would have a hard time cutting.

Depending on how you do the accounting the military spending in 2004 was almost 48% of the money spent. Far more than any "entitlement". Civilian Government workers, not people on welfare, medicare, or social security, are the next big block of spending.

I'm sure we would both agree that a lot of those "government workers" could probably be done without, but the military is so huge we'd have to cut that too if we really wanted to fix the HUGE problem we are cooking up. I bet even if we ended all welfare, medicare, etc.. it would not correct the deficit enough to allow a huge tax cut.

Flat tax may be fine, if we simplify taxes and things work out right that is fine with me. But you will still bitch, your primary income tax might go down, but to do it correctly your Social security taxes will go up if your household income continues to grow. Right now people who make over $90k a year get a big break on social security, if you truly make the taxes flat they should pay on their full income.

I really don't think your idea is going to come true though, you're dreaming. The only way it will happen is if a 3rd party somehow gains power in the government. Both democrats and republicans are happy enough to apply short term thinking for their own benefit.

[benVFR]

How old are you?

Speaking of scare tactics there is a ton of that going on with social security. Even the Republicans version of the story has you getting your social security payout just fine if you're retiring before 2042. Almost everyone on this site will hit the retirement age before then.

[ChrisNoF4i]

It sounds like you need to increase your withholding so you won't get whomped at filing time. You say you made $107K and paid in $11K. That's less than 11%. The average average tax rate for someone like yourself (who falls in the 25% rate) is 14 - 15%. Unless you have abnormally high deductions or a bunch of kids, $11K usually won't cut it. Is this the first time you've been surprised by Uncle Sam?

[highsider]

IMO, the problem is too much inefficiency in spending. Not enough policing where the money goes after budgets are made up. Our local poverty law protectiona agency, Vermont Legal Aid, recently had to go on a spending spree because iof they didn't spend their entire budget, it would be cut the next year.

They bought Electric staplers. Electric staplers are retarded.

I pay my taxes quarterly.

[odduc]

Flat tax may be fine, if we simplify taxes and things work out right that is fine with me. But you will still bitch, your primary income tax might go down, but to do it correctly your Social security taxes will go up if your household income continues to grow. Right now people who make over $90k a year get a big break on social security, if you truly make the taxes flat they should pay on their full income.

DING, DING, DING!!!!!!!

Ok, we're beginning to see eye-to-eye. Part of my rant about taxes, that I omitted, is that the tax code, as it stands today is far too complicated for most of us to easily understand. It is done that way, on purpose, to intimidate. Therein lies a big part of the problem. Simplify the tax code so that we all know exactly what we owe without any deductions. Tax on TOTAL income, equally. Short, sweet and simple. And, no, I will NOT bitch about my taxes if I can easily understand what taxes I am liable for. However, when I am liable for taxes in excess of 30% of my income, I will take serious issue with that. With the way my wife and I are going, we will, next year be paying in excess of 35% of our income to the Feds. If you don't think that's too much, what can I say, you must be more charitable than I am.

As far as Social Security, there is a reason why we are only obligated to pay SS tax up to $90K, that is because if you make more than $90K, you have probably saved enough that SS will not be your primary source of retirement income, theoretically of course.

[odduc]

It sounds like you need to increase your withholding so you won't get whomped at filing time. You say you made $107K and paid in $11K. That's less than 11%. The average average tax rate for someone like yourself (who falls in the 25% rate) is 14 - 15%. Unless you have abnormally high deductions or a bunch of kids, $11K usually won't cut it. Is this the first time you've been surprised by Uncle Sam?

I will change my witholding to 0, from claiming 1.
Yes, this is our first tax surprise.....

[odduc]

How old are you?

I am 36, Ben.

And, yes I agree there are many conflicting reports, from both sides regarding Social Security. My biggest problem with solutons proposed by many politicians, is there insistence to increase the Social Security tax ceiling. Far too often politicians look to us, the taxpayers, for solutions to their ineptitude. When are we going to demand that those people act responsibly? Better yet, when will they begin to listen to us? After all, we do pay their salaries.

[benVFR]

Hmm.. that does suck that you got surprised. I'm 10 years younger than you and I've already been surprised twice.

I made less than you and I withheld signficantly more.

The nasty surprises I've gotten have all been those really complicated situations where I didn't actually make any money that ever made it into my bank account, but there was phantom "taxable income" that I got to pay taxes on.

I am worried for 2005 tax year I will have it even worse as the company I work for was acquired and all my stock was bought out, there are some really retarded rules there. The government can actually tax you on what they thought the company was worth, rather than what the company was actually sold for.

[odduc]

I am worried for 2005 tax year I will have it even worse as the company I work for was acquired and all my stock was bought out, there are some really retarded rules there. The government can actually tax you on what they thought the company was worth, rather than what the company was actually sold for.

Again, another MAJOR problem with our incredibly complicated tax code......
If we had a FLAT tax based upon your total income, you and I and everyone else would have no problem figuring out exactly what taxes are due. However, as I just found out and because I don't have a clear understanding of our tax code, I had a big surprise to the tune of $2800. So much for that bling on my Ducati I was looking forward to, and I guess I can forget about getting back into racing too. Thanks alot, Uncle Sam....

[cyberxen]

When you're thinking about how much taxes you pay, don't forget to consider sales tax, meal tax, gasoline tax (which is something crazy like $ .215/gal).....

[TheIglu]

Originally posted by ChrisNoF4i
It sounds like you need to increase your withholding so you won't get whomped at filing time. You say you made $107K and paid in $11K. That's less than 11%. The average average tax rate for someone like yourself (who falls in the 25% rate) is 14 - 15%. Unless you have abnormally high deductions or a bunch of kids, $11K usually won't cut it. Is this the first time you've been surprised by Uncle Sam?

I would cut a toe off to pay 11%.

[odduc]

When you're thinking about how much taxes you pay, don't forget to consider sales tax, meal tax, gasoline tax (which is something crazy like $ .215/gal).....

If we consider ALL of the taxes that we pay, it really adds up. We pay tax on top of tax on top of another tax.

We are taxed:

1)on our income
2)on our savings, after we have already paid taxes on our income
3)on our gas at the pump
4)on the goods and services that we purchase, after we have already paid taxes on our income
5)if you own a business, you already know of the endless taxes associated with that

Basically, anything that we purchase with our money (again keep in mind that you have already been taxed on the money in your pocket or bank account) has a tax associated with it.

Nothing that you earn, on your own without help from anyone else, is 100% yours. The tax man will always get his.

[odduc]

I would cut a toe off to pay 11%.

You must be really rich, Clayton!!!!!!

[TheIglu]

Originally posted by lrrs167
You must be really rich, Clayton!!!!!!

HA HA HA!!!!

When people ask me what I do, I explain. Their typical attempt at understanding is a reply of "Oh, so you do computers".

Yes, I 'do' computers. In this day in age, that means I 'do' not make as much money as my industry counterparts who graduated 3 years earlier.

It's ok, I like what I do (or what the position I'm looking to transfer into does). Besides, I'm pretty good at bein po'

[Karaya One]

Got my state refund check in last night - $18.00 courtesy of Mitt Romney!

Of course, I had to send W $703.00......

[SEVENSGT]

Originally posted by TheIglu
I would cut a toe off to pay 11%.

run your own business and you can add up deductions to lower yuor taxable income, my % to gross was about 10% tax, now take into account I have 2 children and a sales rep that travels everyday, and add up my mileage to the sum of 45000 miles, and boom I still payed a shit load in my eyes, BTW fuck you clayton

[TheIglu]

Only deductions I can claim are student loan interest.

BTW fuck you to 7's

I don't know why

[cyberxen]

I think that we should be able to deduct the sum total of sales tax (especially significant if you buy a car) and gas tax that we have paid throughout the year off of that years taxable income. I hate the way we get double and triple taxed....

[odduc]

So, I have to ask:

Is anyone else as angry about our Federal tax situation as I am?

Is it worth my time to send letters to the President, Senators, Congressmen and local elected officials?



We do, at least in theory, still live in a democratic society where we are able to criticize our government without fear. Right?!?!?!

Remember that slogan, "no taxation without representation"? Aren't we at that point, again?