[benVFR]

Oops... the Bushies are starting to have trouble controlling what we see as it comes out of Iraq...

Unembedded

Warning - this is not particularly disrespectful to US soldiers but these are powerful photographs and some are much more graphic then what we are being fed in the mainstream media.

Excellent work IMO. Regardless of your viewpoint work like this needs to be seen, not hidden from us.

[Karaya One]

It would be nice to see some context regarding the events surrounding the photographs before "the bushies" are hung out to dry.

[Brian_C6]

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. I consider myself a Democrat and I was anti-Iraq invasion. Now that we have ousted Saddam, I support the reasons we are still there now. In other words, I disagreed with the oust, but I can't disagree with our presence now. Someone needs to be there controlling and keeping people in order while the new government establishes itself.

Also, what do you expect during a war? Yes, there are casualties. The funny thing is, those pictures I consider perfectly normal for a society with no government. 90% of harm you see inflicted on those people are caused by their own people or insurgence / terrorist. If you think most of that harm was caused by the American's, you are FUCKED! We are over there trying to stop shit like that from happening.

Brian

[bigred875]

ousted...oust....it just rolls off your tongue

as for these pics...its a war did you expect to see...


personally i'd like to see some footage of the 80% of Iraq that is not hostile and see how the people are adjusting....and see the progress...

we may not see as graphic pictures in the mainstream...but they have the same tone...death and destruction...so while we do need to see these pics...we need to see both sides..


let's see the hope and construction for a change...

[Karaya One]

OH STOP IT.

Showing the progress in other 85% of the country does nothing to help Michael Moore and his cronies at Air America.

George Bush is evil, I don't care how many schools are built, water supplies modernized or children are now going to school.

All those mass graves were filled with criminals, not ordinary citizens!

That's just a by-product of an evil adminsration going to war for oil and Israel!

Cindy Sheehan told me, so it must be true....

[g®eg]

Originally posted by Karaya One
OH STOP IT.

Showing the progress in other 85% of the country does nothing to help Michael Moore and his cronies at Air America.

George Bush is evil, I don't care how many schools are built, water supplies modernized or children are now going to school.

All those mass graves were filled with criminals, not ordinary citizens!

That's just a by-product of an evil adminsration going to war for oil and Israel!

Cindy Sheehan told me, so it must be true....

"Political experts say that because President Bush has been having so much
trouble with domestic issues, his advisors are telling him to focus more on
international issues. As a result, today President Bush had breakfast at the
International House of Pancakes."

[Karaya One]

Political experts say that because President Bush has been having so much

Tell 'em to try the blueberry syrup!!!

[benVFR]

I was mostly trying to rile things up as this place is so quiet without Mystery Squid.

I am more inclined to believe most of the dead people in the pictures were killed by US troops. If you read the text instead of just looking at the pictures you would see some of the people pictured are actually insurgents. Estimates on the # of civilians killed by us versus insurgents indicate we've killed a lot more when we go in and carry out a siege on a town just to get a few insurgents. We just have a lot more firepower to throw around.

As far as progress in 85% of the country, I think that's BS, the rest of the media IS trying to make us think lots of progress is being made. But just this week someone in the US military said the insurgents are increasing in strength faster then we can train Iraqi police forces.

I doubt even Bush himself would say things are going well at this point. Yep he'd still ask you to support him and stay the course but would he say it's going well? I doubt it.

I think a lot of the mainstream media is trying to give us the impression Iraq is progressing into a mini-USA where people are happy and things are being rebuilt really nicely. You don't see all these pictures of rubble and people with nothing left all that often.

[odduc]

I don't see your point, Ben..........

I do see that the photos are definitely biased. I didn't read any of the background info from the website, but it would seem to me as if it's more of the same "blame America" drivel.

[bigred875]

ok hold it right there ben... please show me something backing up that the media is trying to show us about any progress...thats jsut plain ole crap...

ther reason everyone is is on the anti-war bandwagon is because of the relentless drum beat coming out of the left...and because of their persistance and the time that has gone by they have been able to bring some of the masses over to their side..

he'll i'm guilty of it too...I think it is time for something to change because it appears things may not be going well..but wtf do I know...

I know that this is war and nothing goes as planned.....but harping on every details that gets messed up is not constructive..

this is just more of the same from teh Dems....all complaints no solutions...the conversation ends at we shouldnt have gone in, in the first place...

[Karaya One]

By main stream media, do you mean the New York Times and MSNBC's Mathews and Obermann?

Oh yeah, no bias against the White House there....

Having them report on Iraq is like making Al Franken the White House spokesman.

[bigred875]

it isnt even them...the so called right wing network FOX news doesnt even report this stuff...

[benVFR]

Even places like Fox news have little to report positive, they just don't say anything at all.

About the only thing that is making any news lately is "X was bombed today" and "The US body count is up to Y today".

Really where is the progress... you guys are hilarious if you think the left is manufacturing a lack of progress.

If there was real progress Rummy would get on TV and tell us about it. There hasn't been any big progress in a long time. (I think we caught one of the gang of 52 last week but that's about it that I remember)

You think ALL the independent reporters are anti-US liars? Some of the independents must be conservatives and not anti-US, and yet they all seem to say things are WAY worse then what we are seeing in the mainstream media.

Just doing a search for "independent iraq media" or "unembedded new" gets me reports on US soldiers gunning people down in mosques, running wounded civilans over with tanks, shooting people holding white flags as they run away, soldiers doing drugs just like in Vietnam and otherwise freaking out, etc, etc..

The stuff is going to come out eventually... every war sucks.

The most interesting thing is the mainstream media gives you the impression we're rebuilding the cities, the independent media says the cities are still bombed out rubble and very little has been rebuilt.

[benVFR]

Foxnews.com current headlines about iraq/terror:

White House Fires Back at Critics

Bush, Cheney speak outPresident, vice president take aim at Democrats, others for 'irresponsible' statements on Iraq

Related Stories:
Anti-War Protesters Heckle Cheney
Rep. Murtha Calls for U.S. Withdrawal from Iraq
Video: Bush Takes on War Critics

•Iraq Interior Minister: Torture Claims Exaggerated

•Video Contains Threats of New Terror Attacks
- Video: Attacks Threatened


None of those stories have anything to do with progress in Iraq, they are just political spin.

[benVFR]

If there was really progress we'd be seeing news stories (with photographs and videos of stuff like this)


- Fallujah rebuilding complete - with video of a rubble free city & happy people

- Oil wells coming back online

- Hospitals working & not full of trauma victims

- Kids in schools

- Reports of new businesses being started

- Feel good stories about Mosques being repaired and people happy that we are helping them get their lives back together

[bigred875]

lol..okey dokey

You are right...the only things getting reported are the bombing...in fact that is the only thing that ever gets put front and center... The elections were barely covered as well as the ratification of the constitution.

And Rummy has made plenty of speaches about this and continues to...except all the media shows you are sound bites that support the story they want you to know..

Ben it is really sad that you dont see how they operate...

No I dont think that all the embedded reports are all flamming liberals with an adgenda...but the flamming libs are the only ones who get their stuff shown...

The vast majority of the media is liberal...just like in Hollywood and in education. It is just the nature of the game...conservatives have and always be in the minority in those feilds...

Between that and the fact that death and destruction out sells hope and prosperity is the reasons you do not hear anything good that comes out of Iraq...

And rebuilding does not mean rebuilt 100%...so when the mainstream media says they are rebuilding that is still a good thing...

Are you trying to tell me that nothing good is going on there? the entire coountry is in shambles? That there is no progress?

The fact is there are both...and the reasons we only hear and see about the bad has everything to do with selling the story 1st and the adgenda of the person telling the story....left or right....dem or rep....and becaused of the entire media leaning left you are going to have more stories promoting the liberal adgenda more then whatever ever the right wants you to hear...

You may say that Fox is baised towards the right...fine...the rest lean way left....

Thats funny too...The news coming out of fox is fair and balaanced and not slanted at all...it is just they have more conservative POV's that actually are intelligent and make sense....

Unlike MSNCB, CNN etc who stack the stage with 4 intelligent dems and then they find the dumbest right wing wacko to tell the side of the right....

[bigred875]

Originally posted by benVFR
Foxnews.com current headlines about iraq/terror:

White House Fires Back at Critics

Bush, Cheney speak outPresident, vice president take aim at Democrats, others for 'irresponsible' statements on Iraq

Related Stories:
Anti-War Protesters Heckle Cheney
Rep. Murtha Calls for U.S. Withdrawal from Iraq
Video: Bush Takes on War Critics

•Iraq Interior Minister: Torture Claims Exaggerated

•Video Contains Threats of New Terror Attacks
- Video: Attacks Threatened


None of those stories have anything to do with progress in Iraq, they are just political spin.

what the are you talking about spin....

lol...non of those stories look very good for the administration...

[benVFR]

Not saying Foxnews is putting a spin on those stories.

I am saying they are all about the government spinning things and fighting political battles with itself.

Seriously where are the news stories with solders/workers rebuilding stuff side by side with Iraqis.

We don't see that, we soldiers on patrol in gunfights instead.

If you are pointing to fox news as fair and balanced and showing progress show some stories that show real progress.

There is plenty of conservative media & websites out there to report progress, where is it. Instead they talk about liberals covering shit up and all the same stuff everyone else is talking about.

Seriously... since I am so delusional find me some stories about power plants being brought back on, % of water grids being brought back online, % or roads rebuilding projects being finished, lowering rates of disease and malnutrition in the civilian population, etc..

Why the hell can't Bush get on TV and do a presentation on how things are improving with proof to back it up? He would OWN the anti-war people and the pessimists if he could do that with real proof. We'd all be much happier and his approval ratings would skyrocket! Why can't he do that just like upper management at a company has a meeting for the employees to discuss progress???? Why not?

Look at this state department site:

Government site on Iraq progress

Instead of showing real progress they have news stories about the same old shit as the mainstream media.

[Brian_C6]

What progression are we looking for people?

I don't think we are there to rebuild. Our job was to rid the leader, and secure the place until a new government is established. WE ARE NOT REBUILDING ANYTHING!!

Tell me what Marine solder or Commander is qualified to draft government policies and enforce them? What US politician is over there putting rules into effect? It takes time to create a new society and we aren't qualified for it. Unfortunately if we step in and rebuild it, Yes it will become a mini-US. It's really up to them to progress.

You are always going to get the radicals. You are going to have supporters. We are basically rent-a-cops at this point armed to kill radicals / insurgents when things get out of control.

Brian

[benVFR]

Hey Brian that is a very valid point that the soliders are not necessarily supposed to be doing the rebuilding.

I am not saying the soldiers are not doing their job. However... there are a lot of big US companies over there on fat government contracts paid for by our taxes. I'd love to know what they've accomplished... are they able to rebuild stuff faster then the insurgents and soliders can blow it up again?

I've given the federal government at least $100,000 of my hard earned money since this freakin war started... since some of that is going to pay for the war or will eventually be used to pay the war debt I would love to know what I bought other then a lot of dead Iraqis and a few dead US soldiers and contractors.

[Brian_C6]

And regarding the negative news coverage.....

Look, this war started off on the wrong foot. Not only did many people disagree with the invasion (or at the very least oppose the idea of invading without UN permission) the additional "faulty intelligence reports" only added fuel to the fire. That, coupled with reports of no WMD's, has really made the media coverage DRASTICALLY negative. It's inevitable people are itching to uncover something. The Bush Administration knows the media is having a field day with the mistakes and rightly so.... there have been some MAJOR blunders. I would rather see the Admin (as you said) stand up, ignore the Left, and report all the positives.... take the high road in a sense. I personally think the Right spends too much time defending themselves. It's almost as though the Right is on the defense and Left on offense. This whole "War in Iraq" has become a "War in the US" (between R/L).

Had this war been "Just" from the start, we would be singing a different tune and seeing much different coverage (IMO). I think the whole country would feel a bit more at ease about being there.... we would all feel like we belong there for a legitimate reason. With all the right reasons virtually collapsing, there are too many people who believe the collapsing alone is reason enough not to be there.

The media controls it all... good or bad.

Brian


PS. Another thing I see with this war... A LOT of people can't see the whole picture. It's like putting your hand out in front of you and only seeing the cuts and bruises on your fingers. You end up concetrating so hard on the blemishes, you can't see the Truck that's about to run you over.

[neuthunder]

Originally posted by benVFR
Hey Brian that is a very valid point that the soliders are not necessarily supposed to be doing the rebuilding.

I am not saying the soldiers are not doing their job. However... there are a lot of big US companies over there on fat government contracts paid for by our taxes. I'd love to know what they've accomplished... are they able to rebuild stuff faster then the insurgents and soliders can blow it up again?

I've given the federal government at least $100,000 of my hard earned money since this freakin war started... since some of that is going to pay for the war or will eventually be used to pay the war debt I would love to know what I bought other then a lot of dead Iraqis and a few dead US soldiers and contractors.

speakin of contracts..... they're lookin for forensic photographers over there for $14,000 a day.... yes a day, the thought crossed my mind, make it a couple months and come out rich.... or dead....

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by neuthunder
speakin of contracts..... they're lookin for forensic photographers over there for $14,000 a day.... yes a day, the thought crossed my mind, make it a couple months and come out rich.... or dead....

s/day/month/

Still a good chunk 'o change though.

[neuthunder]

hmmmm maybe someone messed up the info here in the crime lab....