[benVFR]

This is hysterical...

1) That someone is bothering to change the names of Xmas trees to "holiday trees"

2) That these conservative Christian groups have so thoroughly forgotten the true meaning of Christmas that they think a decorated pine tree is a key part of Christmas. (I wonder if they think early Christians had a pine tree to celebrate?)

It's like the corporate consumer mentality of Christmas has become so pervasive people think the tree itself is a religious symbol worth fighting for.

Yahoo news

"After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the decorated pine tree, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of XBox 360 and of Abercrombie and of Fitch. And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Walmart, they returned to their country by another route."

[ChrisNoF4i]

Are you serious Clark?

[bigred875]

dont blame this on the christians...they are right...

I don't ever remember sitting around the secular tree singing....


ooohhhh secular tree OOHHHH SECULAR TREE...oh how non-denominal are you.....


it's a christmas tree...period...

we dont do around calling the menorah a holiday candelabra do we?

this has absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with BS liberal political correctness...

I think virgin has the right idea

http://www.chrismahanukwanzakah.com/

[benVFR]

These guys are going to fight over the Xmas tree till they turn blue in the face, meanwhile forgetting that CHRISTmas is not about trees and presents and helping the American economy!

That is where they are being ridiculous.

Note I said the other side is being pretty ridiculous as well. The tree IS secular. You can hang religious symbols on it but when people of all faiths in this country are putting trees up and Christians all over the world are NOT putting trees up, the tree itself is not a relgious symbol.

edit: Actually I am wrong about some early christians having a tree... the Tree itself comes from a roman pagan holiday. The modern Christmas tree didn't start till the 1850s... as early Americans banned Christmas trees as pagan symbols.

Even in 1900 only 20% of american christians were putting trees up.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by benVFR
These guys are going to fight over the Xmas tree till they turn blue in the face, meanwhile forgetting that CHRISTmas is not about trees and presents and helping the American economy!

That is where they are being ridiculous.

Note I said the other side is being pretty ridiculous as well. The tree IS secular. You can hang religious symbols on it but when people of all faiths in this country are putting trees up and Christians all over the world are NOT putting trees up, the tree itself is not a relgious symbol.

are you seriously going to try and argue that the CHRISTmas trees is not religous?

"The Christmas tree is believed to have originated about 1,000 years ago in an European medieval play about Adam and Eve. The play was presented during Advent, the four weeks preceding Christmas. Apples were hung from a tree on stage as a way to commemorate December 24th, which was the feast day of Adam and Eve.

During the Middle Ages, Europeans, particularly the Germans, kept this tradition alive by placing a small evergreen near the front door, initially as much for its greenery during winter as anything else. The tree was eventually brought inside, decorated and presents ... "

It is a religous symbol....just because people who are not religous use them that does not take the religous aspect out..

[bigred875]

bottom line...if you are offended by a christmas tree you need therapy

[OreoGitorio]

Originally posted by bigred875
bottom line...if you are offended by a christmas tree you need therapy

[legalspeed]

I think we should call it "Holiday Bush", because that's what I get in my living room this time of year!



Minus the bushy part, but still decorated up nicely!

[bump909]

is it a high grade bush?

[JeffL]

Political correctness can lick my ballsack.

[slaps76]

Same kind of shit happened in Newton for Halloween. Couple of parents complained it wasn't part of their religon, so the school cancelled it's Halloween activities/letting kids dress up in costume for school.



Being politically correct is gay.

[benVFR]

Originally posted by bigred875
are you seriously going to try and argue that the CHRISTmas trees is not religous?

"The Christmas tree is believed to have originated about 1,000 years ago in an European medieval play about Adam and Eve. The play was presented during Advent, the four weeks preceding Christmas. Apples were hung from a tree on stage as a way to commemorate December 24th, which was the feast day of Adam and Eve.

During the Middle Ages, Europeans, particularly the Germans, kept this tradition alive by placing a small evergreen near the front door, initially as much for its greenery during winter as anything else. The tree was eventually brought inside, decorated and presents ... "

It is a religous symbol....just because people who are not religous use them that does not take the religous aspect out..

Which history is correct, here is another one:

King Tut never saw a Christmas tree, but he would have understood the tradition which traces back long before the first Christmas, says David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture with the Springfield Extension Center.

The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death.

The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life.

Centuries ago in Great Britain, woods priests called Druids used evergreens during mysterious winter solstice rituals. The Druids used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life, and place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits.

Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early traditions.

Legend has it that Martin Luther began the tradition of decorating trees to celebrate Christmas. One crisp Christmas Eve, about the year 1500, he was walking through snow-covered woods and was struck by the beauty of a group of small evergreens. Their branches, dusted with snow, shimmered in the moonlight. When he got home, he set up a little fir tree indoors so he could share this story with his children. He decorated it with candles, which he lighted in honor of Christ's birth.

The Christmas tree tradition most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio, adds Robson.

But the custom spread slowly. The Puritans banned Christmas in New England. Even as late as 1851, a Cleveland minister nearly lost his job because he allowed a tree in his church. Schools in Boston stayed open on Christmas Day through 1870, and sometimes expelled students who stayed home.

The Christmas tree market was born in 1851 when Catskill farmer Mark Carr hauled two ox sleds of evergreens into New York City and sold them all. By 1900, one in five American families had a Christmas tree, and 20 years later, the custom was nearly universal.

Christmas tree farms sprang up during the depression. Nurserymen couldn't sell their evergreens for landscaping, so they cut them for Christmas trees. Cultivated trees were preferred because they have a more symmetrical shape then wild ones.

Six species account for about 90 percent of the nation's Christmas tree trade. Scotch pine ranks first, comprising about 40 percent of the market, followed by Douglas fir which accounts for about 35 percent. The other big sellers are noble fir, white pine, balsam fir and white spruce.

Premission was granted for Internet use by --- Written by: David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture; Springfield Extension Center

Bottom line? They are not mentioned in the bible, if you're a fundamentalist you should be fighting for creche displays and other actual symbols over the Xmas tree.

There is a lot of irony that secularist & christians are fighting over what started as a pagan symbol and was not a part of our local Christmas tradition barely more then 100 years ago. That was the point of this thread.

[SVRACER01]

maybe we should just call it the "green triangle" or "green cone"

we just call it "a tree"

[benVFR]

This is still all over the news.

Last night on O'Reilly he had a baptist pastor on. The guy was fighting for a creche display in a town that had a Menorah on the town common. (Seems perfectly reasonable)

Well during the discussion they said Christmas trees have already been taken to court a long time ago and decided on.

Basically the government ruled that Christmas is both a secular and religious holiday. (Think how many people are not Christians but still do trees, Santa Claus, etc..) Christmas trees were ruled a non religious part of the holiday.

You can display a Christmas tree on public property without allowing things like Menorahs or Kwanzaa decorations cause the tree is not considered religious.

So it sounds like the current fight in Boston is even more retarded, as we can call it a Christmas tree without it being religious.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by benVFR
Which history is correct, here is another one:



Bottom line? They are not mentioned in the bible, if you're a fundamentalist you should be fighting for creche displays and other actual symbols over the Xmas tree.

There is a lot of irony that secularist & christians are fighting over what started as a pagan symbol and was not a part of our local Christmas tradition barely more then 100 years ago. That was the point of this thread.

i see..then why is it in 2005, across the world except for in Boston MA it is know as a christmas tree...

the tree I have up in my house...and EVERY OTHER tree I have ever seen in someones house this time of year has always been a christams tree....

People lit candles before the jews had the ...does that mean they need to change the name of the menorah because I light candles at my house...

this whole thing is retard...


Where it started is not the same as what it means to people today...religous or not...if you want a tree in your house in the winter and you decorate it and Santa Claus puts presents under it...it is a christams tree... they may not be concrete ties...but both can be traced back to religous events...

[Stoneman]

Hmmmmm....CHRISTMAS trees? Never even seen one. I see those funky Chanukah bushes all over the place this time of year though. I think it's great that America has embraced our Festival of Lights as they have and mark the occasion by decorating trees and houses and buildings with all those commerative lights. I just wish you'd get the dates right for once! You guys keep putting 'em at the wrong times! Thanks for the thought though! It's nice...



Okay, okay. On a more serious note: I could give a fuck WHAT they're called. Me? I call 'em Christmas trees. Religious or not, if you put one up aound Christmas and decorate it with lights and family traditions and put presents under 'em that you open on Christmas morning or eve, then to me it's a Christmas tree. I've never been offended by them or what you call them...

Coupla questions I DO have regarding this (and I know this is probably gonna come off sounding NOT like it should):

-In that article and a few arguments here, Jewish tradition gets dragged into this. Maybe I haven't seen the correct articles, but I haven't read one that claims it's Jewish groups fighting the use of the word. The articles I've read about this seem to indicate that it's people that don't celebrate or observe Christmas...

-Again, I'm all for you & your Christmas trees. But why do you put 'em up at Thanksgiving and take 'em down on New Year? Thanksgiving rolls around and up go the trees and wreaths and all things associated with Christmas. Sometime after the New Year, they all come down. Why not call 'em Holiday trees then? I mean, you ARE covering a number of holidays. Why not put 'em up on Christmas eve and take 'em down Christmas night?

I know the questions may seem a bit stand-off-ish. But I can assure you they're not. Just asking some questions from my angle. As I said, I've never had a problem with 'Christmas' trees

In a nutshell -

How'd Jews get dragged into this? Most I know (myself included) are very understanding of others' beliefs and traditions, even if we don't understand 'em. No Jewish person I know of has complained about 'Christmas' trees...

And why not just have 'em up for Christmas? My Menorah gets displayed from the first night of Chanukah and stays there 'til the last night...

Signed: Confused

[Hardcore]

Originally posted by legalspeed
I think we should call it "Holiday Bush", because that's what I get in my living room this time of year!

get with the times ye olde fart---have her shave it bare!

+ for all the "politically correct its my right not to hear anything religous hippie liberal douche faggots" out there-- I have a CHRISTMAS TREE-- + I will ALWAYS call it a CHRISTMAS TREE-- + if you would like me to change what I call it then just come on over to my house,knock on the door, + politely ask me to!
oh, + at that point I will proceed to beat you senseless + shove my CHRISTMAS tree up your pansy ass!


"MERRY CHRISTMAS" everybody!

[benVFR]

Jay Jews just got dragged into this cause if your kids want you to put up an Xmas tree you get to buy them presents for the 8 crazy nights AND Santa Claus, and then the whole economy does better.

[Hardcore]

Originally posted by benVFR
Jay Jews just got dragged into this cause if your kids want you to put up an Xmas tree you get to buy them presents for the 8 crazy nights AND Santa Claus, and then the whole economy does better.

SHIT MAN--IT'S ALL THE JEWS FAULT!!

if they(the Jews) hadn't killed Christ to begin with--we wouldn't be talking about any of this!

good goin Jay(+ all "your kind")

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Stoneman
Coupla questions I DO have regarding this (and I know this is probably gonna come off sounding NOT like it should):

-In that article and a few arguments here, Jewish tradition gets dragged into this. Maybe I haven't seen the correct articles, but I haven't read one that claims it's Jewish groups fighting the use of the word. The articles I've read about this seem to indicate that it's people that don't celebrate or observe Christmas...

-Again, I'm all for you & your Christmas trees. But why do you put 'em up at Thanksgiving and take 'em down on New Year? Thanksgiving rolls around and up go the trees and wreaths and all things associated with Christmas. Sometime after the New Year, they all come down. Why not call 'em Holiday trees then? I mean, you ARE covering a number of holidays. Why not put 'em up on Christmas eve and take 'em down Christmas night?

fwiw every Jew that I have heard talking about this thinks it is a stupid arguement. It is more of the non-religous people that are crying over it...

as for your second point...you are right...christamas starts way to early...but I think if you wait until after thanksgiving to put the tree up and take it down after the new year it's cool...when you spend that much time and money decorating you want to enjoy it...

[richw]

When I was a kid like 50 years ago (eeek!)

A nice couple from a fine Southern Family was transfered to NYC from Virginia and moved across the street.

Come Christmas she wanted to tastefully decorate there house with candles in the windows.

She found these really cute 9 candle electric cadelabras and put one in every window like a total of 12.

No one said anything but the 4th year the menorahs were replaced by single candles

[bigred875]

[benVFR]

The crappy thing this year is this:

Christmas Eve - Saturday, December 24th
Christmas Day - Sunday, December 25th

Anyone's company stiffing them? We are getting the 23rd and 25th off.

[odduc]

My biggest problem with the whiney liberal hippies is:
WHY NOW????

Why after many years of tradition is this suddenly offensive? My guess would be that is because there are far too many people who don't have jobs, today. So they all congregate together in their dirty little communities and complain to each other that their rights are being violated. The hippies see those of us who maintain jobs and they don't like that we can enjoy the holidays because our jobs provide us the means to share with our friends and family. If there is one thing that hippies can't stand, it's seeing the decent hard working families living the American dream. They just think that the world owes them something. They (jobless, dirty hippies) complain the loudest because they have too much time on their hands. These people are the only ones who our elected officials hear because they scream the loudest and they have nothing better to do but complain.

I can't stand hippies!!!!!!

[bigred875]

Originally posted by benVFR
The crappy thing this year is this:

Christmas Eve - Saturday, December 24th
Christmas Day - Sunday, December 25th

Anyone's company stiffing them? We are getting the 23rd and 25th off.

ya....me too but i am taking more time off...