[richw]

Mentally I am a Libertarian

Practically as they can not be elected then you are a de facto Republican.

Liberals are by nature TOTALITARIANS like Communists (their secret fathers) and Nazi's.

That is they know better whats good for you then you do.

Be very wary of Incremental-ism that has been practiced for the last 60 years.

Gun control, environment, limitation of power has always been based upon small changes where each one ISN"T cared that much by the general voting population. These little changes Integrated over 60 years have moved the laws a great distance.

Gun Laws...After 3 generations of leftist control Gun ownership is so minor and an aging population. You young ones will NOT be able to stop them from banning them all together when my generation is dead. I am the last generation to be able to walk down a country road with a rifle on my shoulder without the neighbors calling the cops.


Dirt bikes etc. My town is buying some forest land. When I enquired about ORV's they said if the state is involved then there can not be any motorized vehicles. When I asked why even though their are 10 ATV owners for every hiker, They looked at me like I asked to have sex with their Mom. The tree huggers inch by inch have now made the forests a temple for their Gaen religion. YOU are paying Them to Keep you Out of Your Forests and saying "Thank You Sir"

If I thought about it I can come up with a never ending list of these assholes restricting your freedom and ruining our economy. When your grandchildren are thanking their Chinese masters for their bowl of rice just hope they don't ask why Grandpa

[RandyO]

Originally posted by richw
Mentally I am a Libertarian

Practically as they can not be elected then you are a de facto Republican.

Liberals are by nature TOTALITARIANS like Communists (their secret fathers) and Nazi's.

That is they know better whats good for you then you do.

Be very wary of Incremental-ism that has been practiced for the last 60 years.

Gun control, environment, limitation of power has always been based upon small changes where each one ISN"T cared that much by the general voting population. These little changes Integrated over 60 years have moved the laws a great distance.

Gun Laws...After 3 generations of leftist control Gun ownership is so minor and an aging population. You young ones will NOT be able to stop them from banning them all together when my generation is dead. I am the last generation to be able to walk down a country road with a rifle on my shoulder without the neighbors calling the cops.


Dirt bikes etc. My town is buying some forest land. When I enquired about ORV's they said if the state is involved then there can not be any motorized vehicles. When I asked why even though their are 10 ATV owners for every hiker, They looked at me like I asked to have sex with their Mom. The tree huggers inch by inch have now made the forests a temple for their Gaen religion. YOU are paying Them to Keep you Out of Your Forests and saying "Thank You Sir"

If I thought about it I can come up with a never ending list of these assholes restricting your freedom and ruining our economy. When your grandchildren are thanking their Chinese masters for their bowl of rice just hope they don't ask why Grandpa

Republicans have been actiung like nazis lately

[bigred875]

well that didnt take long....

[Nikon]

Originally posted by bigred875
well that didnt take long....

Iwas surprised it went without negativity for so long.

[Honclfibr]

I support the libertarian idealism as it seems to me to promote accountability for one's own actions. But it seems to imply that everyone lives in a bubble and that one man's actions don't affect others, or at least that everyone has a reasonable respect for the rights and needs of everyone else and that we will all live in peace and harmony without social pressures to regulate this.

Ok so we get rid of environmental laws, so hey if I want to dig a big hole in my garage floor and run a waste oil disposal business where my method of waste oil disposal is to pour all the waste oil into said hole, that's my business, it's my land. Of course, that waste oil might seep into the groundwater and pollute the water supply of my neighbors, but that's not my problem, they can buy bottled water. Or they can come over with their guns and we can decide who's right, after all that's why we have guns right?

I guess that's fine for some but I really don't feel like living in a society where I have to constantly defend my rights by force, so we as a society set forth rules like environmental protection and fair business practices and so forth and hire a police force to enfore those laws to make sure that some idiot can't ruin the world for the rest of us. And in practice that seems like a better solution to me than having to go around shooting all the idiots out there who are treading on my rights.

BTW that whole hole in the floor to dump the waste oil story, that's not just some slippery slope fiction...that actually happened in my hometown in the 70s, some tool was dumping gallons of waste oil down a hole in his garage every day until someone finally noticed and called the EPA. Tell me how we handle situations like that without wild-west-style shootouts every day at high noon to cull the idiot herd, and I'll gladly put my vote in the libertarian camp because other than that I'm pretty well enamored with their ideas.

[bigred875]

libertarians want to get rid of all env laws?

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by bigred875
libertarians want to get rid of all env laws?

Depends how far you take it but sure, the purest form of libertarianism is anarchy, just like the purest form of totalitarianism is despotism.

What I was trying to get across was that I support some tenets of libertarianism, I don't believe that the government should set up laws to protect you from yourself (i.e. helmet laws), or encroach on any of your rights that do not impinge on the rights of others (i.e. gay marriage) but I do believe that some semblance of central control and redistribution of wealth (welfare, public schooling, however you want to do it but it needs to be there) is necessary to maintain a reasonable society, which makes me a moderate libertarian or a bad libertarian depending on who you talk to.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
Depends how far you take it but sure, the purest form of libertarianism is anarchy, just like the purest form of totalitarianism is despotism.

What I was trying to get across was that I support some tenets of libertarianism, I don't believe that the government should set up laws to protect you from yourself (i.e. helmet laws), or encroach on any of your rights that do not impinge on the rights of others (i.e. gay marriage) but I do believe that some semblance of central control and redistribution of wealth (welfare, public schooling, however you want to do it but it needs to be there) is necessary to maintain a reasonable society, which makes me a moderate libertarian or a bad libertarian depending on who you talk to.

seems to me that the "purists" of any party are all wackos.....it's too bad "real" people are too busy with their lives to put in as much time and energy as the crazies...

thats why the choices seem to be so extreme..hopefully this will start to change as people get fed up with what is going on now...these idiots in charge are like kids fighting over the pale and shovel in the sandbox.... their respective sides are always right...and the other side is always wrong....and we all know neither is the case....

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by bigred875
seems to me that the "purists" of any party are all wackos.....it's too bad "real" people are too busy with their lives to put in as much time and energy as the crazies...

thats why the choices seem to be so extreme..hopefully this will start to change as people get fed up with what is going on now...these idiots in charge are like kids fighting over the pale and shovel in the sandbox.... their respective sides are always right...and the other side is always wrong....and we all know neither is the case....

Yeah definitely, I agree with you there, and of course the two party system makes it very difficult if you have views that straddle the party. For instance, we agree on gay rights but disagree on national defense, and there are probably people on this board who disagree with respective stances on national defense but disagree with us on gay rights...

And in the end all the fence-straddlers seem to cancel out and decide that if they want to have any effect they need to align themselves with the side that promotes the causes that are most important to them, and we're back to the two-party system.

[Kham]

Originally posted by Nikon


I don't like W but that is not because he's repub - I just don't like him.

i hate his guts too.

i have learned not to talk about religious or politics to avoid disapointment, arguement, etc.

[odduc]

I believe that our constitution makes people equal politicly, not socially , in other words, I do not believe in welfare

+1

I'm a BIG personal responsibility guy. So, that being said, I believe in fewer laws designed to save the stupid people from doing themselves in. Let natural selection take it's course ! Let people do as they wish, so long as it does not hurt anyone else (that includes environmentaly).

I believe in smaller government and lower taxes (flat tax is the only fair way).

The government has very basic responsibilities, outlined in the Constitution...PERIOD !!!!!!

So, I am a Libertarian as well.

[richw]

The oil in the hole theory I am so scared.

Now if your cage rolls and there is a qt of oil on the ground out comes the hazmat unit and treats it like ebola virus.

Then charges you 2 to 3000 for the provaledge.

Then your EPA and mafia freinds dig up the soil and bring it to an asphalt plant mix it with the stickiest oil by product then smear it over the ground the next day.

Once the leftist create a bureoucracy it stays alive causing mischief long after its real use has ended.

Now the Gaeist are after Teflon precursers to shut down Teflon. Then they go home and fry their tofu in a non stick pan and light up a joint. But they are rightous that Mother Earth doesn't want Teflon precursers at 2 or 3 parts per billion.

This all happens will the hollywood left croud flys in for the green house gas convention.

Your all fools if you think they are out to help you.

They are religous cultist with the power of legislation behind them.

[Kham]

you know welfare helped my family start a new life in the US 20yrs ago. they'v been working for minimum wage ever since after a yr or so. none of us speaks any english back then.

it's true before that a lot of people on welfare don't know what it is about. they thought it's a way of life in the US. edit: so they don't care looking for job and no one makes them. the only real motivation is that it's not enough to live on. so people started looking.

when i started to realize the way of life in the US, i wish i was back in my country living by the river like Tom Sawyer.

it's like anything else, communist or not, if you're with them and benefiting then it's good. if not then your'e fuck.

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by RandyO
too bad, shit happens, no garantees in life except death & taxes


Like I said I don't believe in welfare ... of any kind .... for anybody


I don't have a problem with churches or private do-gooders organizations helping people out, I do have a problem with public tax $ for that purpose

I don't profess to be an altruistic person

ok, so then the State should not subsidize any housing or care for the mentally insane? Or what happens once a parent is put in jail for absuing a two-year-old child? Are you saying this mentally insane person and the two-year old should be left to fend for themselves?

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by bigred875
I'm not surpised...because of his veiw on homosexual marriage? that is one of the thing i do not agree with him on....i have turned him off when he's gone off on his rants on this...

I havn't heard his views on gay marriage. I can only imagine. He make some some valid points, but I often think he argues more from a point of rhetorical spin (than with logic) and often dosn't seem to give deference to the full complexity of a given issue...albeit, he does have some decent persectives.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by bigred875
well that didnt take long....

homeland security laws are almost identical to what hitler enacted in germany during the 30s, what's not nazi about that, it's not a negative statement, it's a FACT

[Honclfibr]

I'm too young to remember life without an EPA, but I've been told that it was not long ago that you would see folks drive to their local K-Mart, park their car over a storm drain, open up the drain screw, walk inside and get a few quarts of oil and a filter, come back, toss the old filter in the trash, and refill the oil. Brilliant. None of the hassle of proper waste disposal, quick and dirty oil change.

Now being the old geeze that you are richw, I figure you can tell me if this sort of behavior is an urban legend drummed up by crazed EPA tree huggers to justify their existence...or perhaps you don't see an issue with pouring a few quarts of oil down a storm drain every few months?

Please, let me know, because yeah I think maybe we've gone a bit far to the other end with organizations liek the EPA, but I think they were created due to the laziness and greed of...well, YOUR generation. Who would have happily gone about dumping toxic chemicals in rivers and creating smog clouds around cities because, hell, you'd all be dead and gone before the world went *totally* to shit. Yes?

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
Yeah definitely, I agree with you there, and of course the two party system makes it very difficult if you have views that straddle the party. For instance, we agree on gay rights but disagree on national defense, and there are probably people on this board who disagree with respective stances on national defense but disagree with us on gay rights...

And in the end all the fence-straddlers seem to cancel out and decide that if they want to have any effect they need to align themselves with the side that promotes the causes that are most important to them, and we're back to the two-party system.

i think the 2 party system would work fine if they would learn to play nice with each...each side has valid arguements.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by chr|s sedition
ok, so then the State should not subsidize any housing or care for the mentally insane? Or what happens once a parent is put in jail for absuing a two-year-old child? Are you saying this mentally insane person and the two-year old should be left to fend for themselves?

like I said shit happens, I guess if both parents go to jail, then a chile would have to go to an orphanage, orphanages should be run by churches or other do-gooder groups

dawwin should work, survival of fittest, you have double standard? it's ok for a squid to kill himself cause he's stupid, it's ok for a mentally insane person to not survive too, it's how we get rid of bad genes in society

[Kham]

"human is like a virus. they spread to an area and consumed..."

i forgot how it goes.

sorry i gues it's off topic.

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by odduc
I believe in smaller government and lower taxes (flat tax is the only fair way).

I've been waiting for this one to come up. I'm not convinced a flat tax is fair. Example below (and please do find holes in this theory. I *want* to be convinced of fairest way to deal with this issue)


A tax law in nation Z is passed. Everyone is given a flat tax of 25% of the montly income.

Family X of three people lives below the poverty level. They make $100.00 a month. Their flat tax is $25.00. Total food cost for the family is $50.00 a month. Rent is $25.00 per month, the cheapest rent the can find. They have no money left for savings, medical bills, etc.

Family Y of three people is loaded. The make $100,000 per month. Their flat tax is $25,000. They consume the exact same amount of food per month as family X, so the they spend $50.00. Because of their income, they had the privlege of choosing a really nice house to live in. They pay $1,000.00 a month in mortgage payments. They have a ton of money left over to spend on whatever the hell they feel like.

In theory, is the flat tax fair in this example? I say yes. Is it fair in reality? I say no. The reason why is that the factor of living expenses is not also assesed on a flat-fee in propotion to income. To make a flat-tax fair, it would seem that things like rent, food, etc shoud also be flat-fee's based on a proprtion of income. To do so otherwise, would be to make the shackles of poverty that much harder to overcome.

[TheIglu]

Darryll, remember, the babyboomer generation can do NO WRONG.

:RANT:

Those were the "good old days", right? But nobody ever realized that the shit that went down back then would have to be paid for in the future. Hence why we have the EPA.

I'm gunna laugh when I'm 40 and they all are starving on SS and loosing their houses. They can fuck themselves as far as I care. Maybe by then I can have the option of having a "summer home" or buy a new car every 2 years.

But instead the government is going to be nearly bankrupt keeping the money flowing since they refuse to sell their homes when they can't afford it any longer. Why doesn't the government help people like a friend of mine? Student loans, low paying job that is high for his situation, degree, wife that works full time too, two old used cars, no hobbies that cost $$$ but banks laugh at him for all house loans. If old Lady Robinson went to the home there would be one more house for a new family to start in. Instead that crusty old bitch is gunna die in it 10 years from now while using it for 10% of the space until then. All the while here is my friend, paying rent to another babyboomer who has 3 houses, no degree, no job, just "got a good deal" and bought these houses 15 years ago for 15% of what they would go for now. Pay scales haven't gone up HALF that.

Why do you think home prices are so rediculous? So many people can afford them, that's why. Thank you babyboomers. Thank you corperations for increasing pay mainly due to time spent on the job instead of value added.

1-800-JOE-4OIL

Fuck you joe. That little old 92 year old lady who lived in that house since she was 23 at least could AFFORD a house when she was 23. Now since it's such a horrible thing when the bank forcloses on a home there are so few cheap homes for sale.
Keep supporting the people who can't afford homes so that the everyday person can't as well. It's unfortunate but a large majority of my generation is doomed to rent or barely squeak by owning for most of their lives. And I thank liberals for that, even though I side with them for most things.

end of rant, back to work

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by RandyO
dawwin should work, survival of fittest, you have double standard? it's ok for a squid to kill himself cause he's stupid, it's ok for a mentally insane person to not survive too, it's how we get rid of bad genes in society

Well, the two are distinguishable. A squid w/o helmet made a choice not to wear a helmet. His death is a consequnce of his own actions ad choices. Have a nice funeral. On the other hand, the mentally insane person has been inflicted with something beyond his or her control.

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by chr|s sedition
In theory, is the flat tax fair in this example? I say yes. Is it fair in reality? I say no. The reason why is that the factor of living expenses is not also assesed on a flat-fee in propotion to income. To make a flat-tax fair, it would seem that things like rent, food, etc shoud also be flat-fee's based on a proprtion of income. To do so otherwise, would be to make the shackles of poverty that much harder to overcome.

Plus, as one person begins to accumulate wealth, they inevitably end up controlling many of the basic needs of human existence: food, shelter, clothing. This allows them to maintain the gap between themselves and those at the poverty line indefinitely, ala the plight of WV coal miners expressed in "Sixteen Tons".

Laissez Faire economics has been tested in this country, and it resulted in the vast majority of wealth ending up in the hands of a (lucky/well connected/hardworking/intellligent) few. And they could have passed it on to their progeny to maintain a strangehold on wealth indefinitely if the laws weren't changed to promote redistribution of wealth.

I believe the only way to maintain Laissez Faire economics would be to make everyone equal from birth, you would be raised to adulthood using a pool of common funds which is maintained by the wealth people have amassed when they die (no more passing it on to your progeny), when you turned 18 you would be given a chunk of money from this common pool and told to go out and seek your fortune. Of course, this would probably require putting all children in the control of the state from birth, and that might piss some bleeding hearts off who want to love and raise their children...meh...

[odduc]

Flat tax....

I do see your point, Chris. However, a flat tax is the only TRULY fair way to tax. BUT, along with the flat tax there should be a minimum income level upon which people can be taxed. If you fall below a certain level, you pay no tax until you reach an income level that is equal to said level + the tax rate. That way, there is no fear of having less take home pay when those people begin to make more. This would mean that the wealthiest people pay the most tax. Additionally, no exemptions, deductions, etc. This way there is no guess work involved when preparing one's taxes. The system, as it stands today, is far too cumbersome, confusing and just plain FUCKED UP !!!!! The current IRS tax code is so complicated that enough new regulation are written every year to fill a book the size or "War and Peace". Why does the government do that ? To keep all of us fearful and stupid. ENOUGH already !!!!