[TheIglu]

Originally posted by Cue Ball
All I have to say about this is.... "PUSH THE BUTTON" and "GAME OVER". Nukem all, let God/Alah/Buddah sort them out

And then why would be blame them about thinking the same about us?

The whole middle school mentality of "Fuck everyone else" doesn't work. Then again, that's logic at work so I guess it has no place here.

[benVFR]

Originally posted by SVRACER01
wheres the Coast Guard? the USCG always gets overlooked... its disheartening knowing that most of the general public veiw the USCG this way

Sorry man I wasn't overlooking the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard is the only branch of the service I (and many other people) actually get to interact with on a semi-regular basis so of course they are appreciated. I've never been intercepted by F-16s but I have been "intercepted" by the Coast Guard doing their job before.

I just think if your main goal is to go kill Iraqis... you are better off in one of the other branches of the Service.

And the Airforce maybe should have been left out of my list too.. they get their kills but unless you have some very special skills you are not going to get to go cut some Iraqis head off with your machete by joining the AF.

[Bruiser]

Originally posted by bentbryan
Actually, we wouldn't have a recruiting problem if Clinton hadn't gutted the military during his stay.

At this point in my life I wouldn't join. But if I was drafted I'd go.

I was part of that casualty! They took away my Wings (in a sense...took away my flying billet(job in aircraft I was trained in).
Clinton was such a bastage.

[bentbryan]

Originally posted by benVFR


And the Airforce maybe should have been left out of my list too.. they get their kills but unless you have some very special skills you are not going to get to go cut some Iraqis head off with your machete by joining the AF.

I don't recall anyone stating they want to cut off someone's head. That is a terrorist act intended to inspire fear. But that certainly is a clever way to demonize the good guys ( US military).

[richw]

I have the hope that they were dead before "capture".

I am sure by now that the military knows never to surrender and not to go out in groups smaller then a fire team.

I hope the rules of engagement have gotten more liberal
"halt BANG! or I'll shoot". I would want anyone of our guys given more then the benefit of the doubt about enemy casualties.

[a13x]

Originally posted by chr|s sedition
I think indirectlly, the issue has been addressed. Speaking for myself, (and I assume I am lumped in the "left side"), I dont really see a need to express outrage over the acts of Al Quedia. Why? Becuase it is obvious; they are fucking insane. They only thing that really suprises me about this recent torture / murder is that it has only happened a few times. I would expect them to be doing this shit as much as often as they could. Moreover, the world knows exactully what to expect to Al Queida, they do not hold themselves out to be something they are not. and without any argument, they are fucking crazy and need to be stopped.

and then there is the USA. the reason some people may seem quick to jump the acts of the american government is that often we claim to the "leaders of the free world", and then we run around invading other countries, torturing people to death, and throwing internationsl human rights out the window. and therein lies a serious contridiction. am I going to call bullshit on that? damn right I am, and I am going to do so b/c I want this country to *remain* one of the best in the world.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by a13x

what amazes me most about you fellers on the left is that you have this great hatred towards Bush and think he is the next hilter...yet totally dismiss and appease the likes of al-qeda...

[Bruiser]

Originally posted by bigred875
what amazes me most about you fellers on the left is that you have this great hatred towards Bush and think he is the next hilter...yet totally dismiss and appease the likes of al-qeda...

As a vet...I appreciate a comment like this. No matter what those on the left think..terrorists wont play fair. While people call for our troops to take some form of ethics class..the 'rists, are killing in a unfair war...not only our troops but the people of Iraq. These people could care less. I appreciate Bush and support him as my president.

[benVFR]

No one on the left is naive enough to think terrorists only kill conservatives or only kill people who support the war.

Doesn't change the fact that none of our soldiers would be dead if Bush didn't send them in there to fetch non-existent WMDs. Or change the fact that Bush is using our soldiers as "nation builders" instead of warriors as they are supposed to be used... repeating all the mistakes of Vietnam and previous wars after firing the one guy in his cabinet who had a clue about how to fight a war.

We are still waiting for the "good" to come of this war, only time will tell if it works out. But you can't blame people in Iraq for killing American troops, we were never invited into Iraq.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by benVFR
No one on the left is naive enough to think terrorists only kill conservatives or only kill people who support the war.

Doesn't change the fact that none of our soldiers would be dead if Bush didn't send them in there to fetch non-existent WMDs. Or change the fact that Bush is using our soldiers as "nation builders" instead of warriors as they are supposed to be used... repeating all the mistakes of Vietnam and previous wars after firing the one guy in his cabinet who had a clue about how to fight a war.

We are still waiting for the "good" to come of this war, only time will tell if it works out. But you can't blame people in Iraq for killing American troops, we were never invited into Iraq.

doesnt change that fact you guys refuse to acknowledge the problem with terrorism...or the global war on terror...it is real and you guys refuse to see it and monday morning QB the WMD issue when youknow well and good there were several previously reliable sources stating they are there...

I agree about the nation building but this is reality...and what would be worse..attacking them for WMD's then once we did not find them cut and run? You would be the first one crying about that...knock it off with the double standards already...

and the difference between this and Vietnam was the initial attack in veitnam was for nation building..in Iraq it is an unfortunate casualty

[Bruiser]

Originally posted by bigred875
doesnt change that fact you guys refuse to acknowledge the problem with terrorism...or the global war on terror...it is real and you guys refuse to see it and monday morning QB the WMD issue when youknow well and good there were several previously reliable sources stating they are there...

I agree about the nation building but this is reality...and what would be worse..attacking them for WMD's then once we did not find them cut and run? You would be the first one crying about that...knock it off with the double standards already...

and the difference between this and Vietnam was the initial attack in veitnam was for nation building..in Iraq it is an unfortunate casualty

Nice Red. I was about to reply with the same information. These are the same people that supported Clinton...while he had cigar fetishes. The same group that complained when 9/11 happened while Bush was in office. Clinton had a chance to take out Osama...but was more concerned with sticking cigars in known places. The 9/11 plot started while Clinton was in office. I'm glad Bush took it to them. Imagine where we would be right now if he didn't do anything and just sat back and watched. People need to realize that its better to be fighting over there, than fighting here on our home land.

[benVFR]

No I wouldn't be crying when they hit us.

I wasn't even really crying when 9/11 happened. It was more like "Ugh that was a long time coming". 9/11 wasn't terribly surprising to me... sorry but that's the truth.

I don't really acknowledge terror as a great risk to American citizens IN THE US. Even with one 9/11 level event a year I know I'm more likely to die of 20 other different things, and more likely to have a friend of family member die of 20 other different things.

It is just not a big enough risk to justify all the soldiers we have lost and all the people we have killed. The difference is those of us who don't support the war do not believe the war is doing any good to stop terrorism. Have other items Bush has done as a reaction to 9/11 reduced the risk? Yes I would say so.. but not necessarily the war. All this does is make more and more people want to kill themselves to hurt the US.

Terrorism has been hyped to no end by the government & press in order to get us to support the war and whatever other invasions of civil liberty, unpopular international actions, etc.. the government would like to do.

Terrorism is so far down the list of likely causes of death for us it's not even funny. Apparently the massive cash outlay to fight in Iraq is worth it... but are the civilians lives lost in 9/11 really worth the military lives lost in Iraq? Are those civilians worth more? Has the loss of military life prevented a future 9/11-level event?

Did Saddam's capture stop a new 9/11-level event in the US?
Did the death of Al Zarqawi prevent another 9/11-level event in the US? Or did it just prevent the deaths of some soldiers who shouldn't be in Iraq and the deaths of Iraqi innocents?

[bigred875]

and here is the problem right here:

I don't really acknowledge terror as a great risk to American citizens IN THE US. Even with one 9/11 level event a year I know I'm more likely to die of 20 other different things, and more likely to have a friend of family member die of 20 other different things.

It is just not a big enough risk to justify all the soldiers we have lost and all the people we have killed

it truely saddens me that you cannot see the fault in that statement...all sarcastic crap and jokes aside. Don't you realize that is why we have the soldiers? So civilians do not have to die? One 9/11 is too many..and you want to wait until the amount of attacks on our soil increases until YOUR life is effected? wow ben...just wow

Terrorism has been hyped

it is not hype when the writing is on the wall...the attacks are happeneing... and have grown more bold and more frequent

Terrorism is so far down the list of likely causes of death for us it's not even funny.

now....NOW and the problem is you guy want to wait until it is too late... a la clinton

but are the civilians lives lost in 9/11 really worth the military lives lost in Iraq?

soldiers die for citizens that is in the job description.

Are those civilians worth more?

in a word..yes but that is a shitty way to word the question and you know it

Has the loss of military life prevented a future 9/11-level event?

that is an unanswerable question and you know that as well

Did Saddam's capture stop a new 9/11-level event in the US?

what? no but the "War on Terror" has...but again...even if it did..we would not know about it

Did the death of Al Zarqawi prevent another 9/11-level event in the US? Or did it just prevent the deaths of some soldiers who shouldn't be in Iraq and the deaths of Iraqi innocents?

now you are trolling....

[benVFR]

Not at all... I'm not waiting for it to happen to me or someone directly related to me.

Because I am 100% confident that will not happen!

Use the military to defend this country, NOT a middle eastern country where they are not wanted!

You think I am disrespecting the soldiers? You're just condemning them to die on the off chance someone decides it's a good idea to go do a suicide bomb in your hick town no one outside of the US has ever heard of? (That is the greatest thing about this, those who are most fearful of terrorism are those who live in rural conservative areas that will be the last to be attacked, meanwhile the predominantly liberal populations in high density areas will be the ones attacked in retribution for a war they never supported.)

Show me any proof that all the death and destruction we have caused in Iraq has motivated ANYONE to not want to kill US citizens.

If I was a would be terrorist in Iraq I wouldn't go shooting at US Soldiers. I'd find any way I could to get a plane ticket here to the US, where said terrorist could kill all the US citizens they want with very little fear of having to deal with any armed soldiers.

Put the Soldiers in Times Square, put them in Downtown Boston, put them in Providence. No one will shoot at them and they'll be protecting US on the offchance some towelhead decides to go terrorist... NOT a bunch of Iraqis who don't want them around and think it's great fun to take potshots!

[bigred875]

[benVFR]

BTW one more thing... if you think I'm trolling.

The Clinton/Cigar/Monica argument for every failing of this Administration is the lamest most "Dee Dee Dee" thing you could possibly say.

Regardless of anything Clinton may have caused regarding Terrorism, and those are all things you have the burden to prove, Clinton is not the US President. Nothing Clinton did can be undone, Clinton does not run this country. Anything he did is not an excuse for the current Administrations problems or ability/lack of ability to get the job done.

Bringing up Clinton is a knee-jerk reaction that can never solve any problems. How would you like it if Bush got up everytime something went wrong and said, "But Clinton got a Blow-Job!" You sound just as stupid as he would if he said that!

Even if I agree with you and blame everything, even the rain, on Clinton, it will never solve any problems.

[a13x]

I'm not on the Left.

I'm not really political at all. I just thought what Chris wrote made sense. Why don't you reread it again and try to explain to me what's wrong with it. I'll even highlight some points.


I dont really see a need to express outrage over the acts of Al Quedia. Why? Becuase it is obvious; they are fucking insane. They only thing that really suprises me about this recent torture / murder is that it has only happened a few times. I would expect them to be doing this shit as much as often as they could. Moreover, the world knows exactully what to expect to Al Queida, they do not hold themselves out to be something they are not. and without any argument, they are fucking crazy and need to be stopped.

and then there is the USA. the reason some people may seem quick to jump the acts of the american government is that often we claim to the "leaders of the free world", and then we run around invading other countries, torturing people to death, and throwing internationsl human rights out the window. and therein lies a serious contridiction. am I going to call bullshit on that? damn right I am, and I am going to do so b/c I want this country to *remain* one of the best in the world.


I don't care if you are Left, Right, or Upside down. Nothing in those above statements is anything but logical and sensible.

[benVFR]

Well Al3x, if you agree with that you are a pinko-commie-terrorist-sympathising-USA-hating whatever with the rest of us.

There can be no contradiction. There is no gray, there is no in between. There is good, and there is evil. There is no in between. We are good because we say so. Anyone in the ROTW is evil because we say so.

We are the leaders of the world, the best, the most right, etc.. because we have the power. Our soldiers can do what they want because we are the USA. We cannot be questioned.

To deny this is to not be patriotic and to be a part of the problem.

[a13x]

Damn.

I also don't believe in the Bible. Dude I'm so fucked, I should just go walk off the Tobin now

[JeffL]

Originally posted by a13x
Damn.

I also don't believe in the Bible. Dude I'm so fucked, I should just go walk off the Tobin now

Yeah you should, you goddamn Clinton Hugging Democrat Pinko Commie!!



Bush Rulz, Clinton Droolz, Bush for prez in 08, hes the best!

[chr|s sedition]

I usually only respond to (inane) comments other people make in these threads, but I'll be a bit more proactive with this post.

The biggest problem with Iraq is that we have fostered and created exactlly what we were trying to avoid in the form of either / both; (a) a breeding ground for terrorism, or (b) the uneeded deaths of thousands of people.

(1) Osama and crew were responsible for 9/11.

(2) Sadam had nothing to do with it.

(3) Bush claimed Sadam had WMD's and was part of the anti-USA terror network. Sadam was no nice guy, but IRAQ posed *no threat* to the US.

(meanwhile, Osama is still running around, and we never even bothered to check-out Saudi Arabia, where 15 of the 9/11 highjackers were from)

(4) We invade IRAQ. The US thinks it is going to be a "quick war", a HUGE mistake.

(5) All hell breaks loose in IRAQ.

(5)(a) If we *do* fail to "nation build" in IRAQ, we are in *big trouble*. IRAQ will become what it was not, but what we thought that it actually was; a tremendous breeding ground and training camp for Al Quieda and their ilk. Moreover, Iraq will have made that transformation only from our actions. Sadam's government was in place, and we took it out. As bad as that government was, it will be a far better and less hostile government than the one that replaces it if we fail to "nation build". Thus, by our actions, we will have enabled a terrorist country to come into existence that would not have been there provided that we did not invade Iraq in the first place. Meanwhile, the main person behind 9/11 (Osama) is still running around free, and thousands of people are dead with NOTHING to show for it. This is the worst possible outcome.

(5)(b) If we do *not* fail to nation build in Iraq, what will the net gain be? Prolly some other fucked-up government that is not an active threat to the USA (hmm...sounds like Sadam's government), yet we will have lost thousands of US lives, thousands of Iraqi civillans lives, and caused greater animosity than that which was previouslly there (applies to both middle eastern countries, and the rest of th world). Meanwhile, the main person behind 9/11 is still running around free, and thousands of people are dead, and we end up in about the same posistion as we were when we went into Iraq (arguably worse, b/c now more the middle east and the rest of the world hates us more than before). As sad as this sounds, it is most likely the best possibile out come.

(6) Clinton: if you are going to attribute the fault of 9/11 and current war to the previous administration's policies, please follow that line of reasoning to its bitter end: Republican abministrations put both Sadam and Osama into power. Logic hurts.

-sedition

[chr|s sedition]

Thanks for the props.

Originally posted by a13x
I'm not on the Left.

I'm not really political at all. I just thought what Chris wrote made sense. Why don't you reread it again and try to explain to me what's wrong with it. I'll even highlight some points.


I dont really see a need to express outrage over the acts of Al Quedia. Why? Becuase it is obvious; they are fucking insane. They only thing that really suprises me about this recent torture / murder is that it has only happened a few times. I would expect them to be doing this shit as much as often as they could. Moreover, the world knows exactully what to expect to Al Queida, they do not hold themselves out to be something they are not. and without any argument, they are fucking crazy and need to be stopped.

and then there is the USA. the reason some people may seem quick to jump the acts of the american government is that often we claim to the "leaders of the free world", and then we run around invading other countries, torturing people to death, and throwing internationsl human rights out the window. and therein lies a serious contridiction. am I going to call bullshit on that? damn right I am, and I am going to do so b/c I want this country to *remain* one of the best in the world.


I don't care if you are Left, Right, or Upside down. Nothing in those above statements is anything but logical and sensible.

[Nikon]

[JeffL]

I call your Cobra, and raise you one Rambo:

[chr|s sedition]

I'm "all in" with Bronson.