[atek3]

"wildbill" watch this keith olbermann clip on the death of habeas corpus act. If you still stand by the president on this issue... I might have to fall prey to godwin's law:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hutR9yqb8QY

[Josephd14]

<---- Thats what you deserve, for listening to political satire from a sportscaster.. and most of all, ANYONE on MSNBC..

[WildBill]

Originally posted by atek3
"wildbill" watch this keith olbermann clip on the death of habeas corpus act. If you still stand by the president on this issue... I might have to fall prey to godwin's law:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hutR9yqb8QY

This is where you get your information from? How Sad.

For the godwin's law? well if thats all you got to debate with again How Sad for you. of course I figured that would come into play here awhile ago but please go ahead and tell me how much of a Nazi we conservatives are. That should Shut us up.

[tonyd]

When a population is scared for some reason whether it's of terrorists, unemployment, or starving to death it becomes willing to give up it's rights if it thinks giving up those rights will help protect it.
Yes, Since 9/11 we have been scared and many have been willing to give away their freedom to stay safe. It is true that these measure were not intended to be used against everyday citizens but they give the government the right to do so if they see fit. It is not hard to imagine a citizen being deemed an enemy combatant and publically handled as a terrorist. Nor is it a hard to imagine an instance when the government see's it fit to secretly remove the evidence(that they are in control of) of someone being a citizen in order to treat them as though they are not citizens. What do we really have to prove our citizenship? I have a birth certificate that is nothing more than a copy of a page in a hospital log book. This document was used as proof of age and citizen ship to issue my SS card and drivers licence. My drivers licence and birth cert. were all that was needed to get my new passport issued by the feeds which now has a handy chip in it to track my movement. How hard would it be to make me go away in the system? Not very. I had to wait a day to register my last bike because the DMV Licence system was down and they could not verify I was still a resident of NH.
Far fetched you say? Alot of things have happened in the last 5 years I would have said were far fetched if you asked me in 1998.

Once we're on this slippery slope it's not a long way from terrorists, to oklahoma city bomber types, to my customer from the next town over who has started his own "Constitutional Rangers" militia group. He has federal agents observing his estate often and the guy is just crazy, not dangerous, how long until he's a "terrorist". His nieghbor was also visited by federal agents recently, the reason? He has diner at the crazy bastards house once a month and just purchased 4 new rifles for and upcoming hunting trip. Scary stuff.

[bigred875]

good points....what do you suggest we do then? ignore the problem....i'm not being an ass...seriously

[capt1014]

I think tonyd, needs to move.

[tonyd]

Which problem? Habeas Corpus? I don't see treating people fairly under the Constitution and Geneva Convention as a problem. Why not have the government operate within the laws as they are rather than rewriting them in a panick.

The US detained countless Japanese within the US durring world war II. Many years later we realized it was not the right thing to do, apologized, and paid restitution (spelling???).
I'm not going to claim to have the answers but if you look at history taking rights away from anyone, citizen or "alien" has never been a good thing for any society. Why do we have to repeat these mistakes?

[bigred875]

Originally posted by tonyd
Which problem? Habeas Corpus? I don't see treating people fairly under the Constitution and Geneva Convention as a problem. Why not have the government operate within the laws as they are rather than rewriting them in a panick.

The US detained countless Japanese within the US durring world war II. Many years later we realized it was not the right thing to do, apologized, and paid restitution (spelling???).
I'm not going to claim to have the answers but if you look at history taking rights away from anyone, citizen or "alien" has never been a good thing for any society. Why do we have to repeat these mistakes?

i mean about protecting us from terrorism...clinton proved doing nothing doesn't work...you do not agree with W's methods...what do you suggest?

[tonyd]

Well, I don't agree with many of the things GWB does but I'll limit the dicussion to the topic of this thread and try not to get political.

Detain anyone you want but do it legally, don't change the law or law system on a per case basis.

If you have no grounds to continue to imprison someone let them go. Wouldn't you expect this protection if your work required you to travel in foriegn countries?

Hold prisoners in the US mainland. What are they hiding in Guantanamo? Why ship people to countries that do not recognize the geneva convention for questioning?

The judicial system did not allow 9/11 to happen, an intelligence system still trying to protect us from the wrong threat did.

[bigred875]

Detain anyone you want but do it legally, don't change the law or law system on a per case basis.

legally? who's laws? our law's applied to non-US citizens? are you serious?

If you have no grounds to continue to imprison someone let them go. Wouldn't you expect this protection if your work required you to travel in foriegn countries?

define grounds.. no..lol absolutely not...and you will not get it either. things are very very differnt every were else inthe world..if you are suspected to be a criminal or whatever...generally you are fucked. not to mention the detainees are treated better in our so called prisons then they get in their own country...what is it 80% of the detainees have gained 20-40lbs?

Hold prisoners in the US mainland. What are they hiding in Guantanamo? Why ship people to countries that do not recognize the geneva convention for questioning?

ok where..your neighborhood? why wouldnt they when said detainees do not follow any convention....not to mention that just because cuba doesnt follow it that the soldiers dont. those detainees are being treated more then failry...they are granted GC rights...you are falling back on the talking points

The judicial system did not allow 9/11 to happen, an intelligence system still trying to protect us from the wrong threat did.

ya cant sum 9/11 up in a sentence so don't try... there are many lessons to be learn from 9/11..some of which require new laws...so the judicial system will always be involved.

you still have not given any answer to my questions...how do you fix the problem...how do you protect us..i don't blame you for not having an answer...your party doesnt either which is why all they do is shout about how crappy a job W is doing...he is stripping our rights away....and never EVER! have a solution.....other then ignore it and it will go away...or play nice and they'll leave us alone...

[tonyd]

So your answer to protect us is to give the gov the right to lock up who ever they want, when ever they want, for as long as they want?
While we're at it maybe we should give all control of air, land and see travel over to the military. Surely tanks on the docks, and check points on the highways will make us safer. And maybe someone would think twice about smuggling that bottle of pepsi in their carry on if the person searching them at the airport was the the one carrying an automatic weapon. Thats called a police state, not what America is about.

Could you define talking points? It seems anything that you don't have an reply for is suddenly a "talking point' and unworthy of consideration.

I would feel safer with a prison full of "terrorist" detainees next door than one full of robbers, murders, and rapist so what's your point? Do you want to send all of our criminals to cuba too.

It's getting close to the time to not bother replying to your posts, not becuase we disagree... your just not interesting.

[bigred875]

So your answer to protect us is to give the gov the right to lock up who ever they want, when ever they want, for as long as they want?

no and neither is W's...there are guidlines...

While we're at it maybe we should give all control of air, land and see travel over to the military. Surely tanks on the docks, and check points on the highways will make us safer. And maybe someone would think twice about smuggling that bottle of pepsi in their carry on if the person searching them at the airport was the the one carrying an automatic weapon. Thats called a police state, not what America is about.

ok so the rational discussion is over?

Could you define talking points? It seems anything that you don't have an reply for is suddenly a "talking point' and unworthy of consideration.

you know what i mean by talking points....i have answers for most of them...probably lengthy ones posts already on this board...rephrase the question an I'll be happy to respond

I would feel safer with a prison full of "terrorist" detainees next door than one full of robbers, murders, and rapist so what's your point? Do you want to send all of our criminals to cuba too.

lol well you are nuts then and it seems you had a bit too much of the kool-aid. "Do you want to send all of our criminals to cuba too." ya thats it

It's getting close to the time to not bother replying to your posts, not becuase we disagree... your just not interesting.

ya i guess isn't interesting when every point you try to make gets shredded and your only responses is emotional crazy talk. I answered every one of your points(the legitimate ones) with an intelligent response and all you come back with is rhetoric and sarcasm...why dont you let the big boys talk now m-kay

[tonyd]

shredded? I'm sure those people who agree with your general principles would see it that way. I personally would not think so highly of myself or my opinions to make such a statement.

have fun big boy

[bigred875]

Originally posted by tonyd
shredded? I'm sure those people who agree with your general principles would see it that way. I personally would not think so highly of myself or my opinions to make such a statement.

have fun big boy

hahaha....whatever man...i tried and you started attacking and comming back with vague inuendo nonsense...and yes..shredded I picked apart everyone of your points and responded..you did not even respond to my question..

typical...for those talking notes...the easiest way to win a debate with a left is to start asking question...once you get below the talking points there is no substance with them....

[Josephd14]

Originally posted by bigred875
typical...for those talking notes...the easiest way to win a debate with a left is to start asking question...once you get below the talking points there is no substance with them....

I love when people cling to laws that were written 200 years ago Like it's the Bible.. People and laws have been around for 1000's and 1000's and 1000's ect... of years, They wrote the Constitution as a fondation, or building block, last i knew it was written on paper, not engraved in stone, things need to be changed and updated from time to time.. You can not meet needs of today, with the laws of yesterday..