[zombie]

Habeas corpus. Do you know what it is?

It is what brought us out of the Dark Ages.

From 1215 until today, habeas corpus has been used to protect people from unlawful imprisonment.

And we lost it today. Senate Hearings S3930 ended in a vote which not only gave the president the right to detain you without habeas corpus, and gave him the ability to make up his own definition of the Geneva Convention.

Here is an excerpt I got from the Wikipedia website on habeas corpus…
“habeas corpus is the name of a legal instrument or writ by means of which detainees can seek release from unlawful imprisonment. A writ of habeas corpus is a court order addressed to a prison official (or other custodian) ordering that a detainee be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he or she should be released from custody.”

I know, I would rather ride my motorcycle than think.
But while we were riding, they were taking our freedom away today. It's time to think!

Why? Because we just re-entered the dark ages.

Now if you find yourself in jail, you have no right. No one will know. And anything can happen. You can be shipped to another country and have your fingernails ripped off.

The Declaration of Independence was our way of leaving the dreadful King George behind. .

Our own miltary is against this as it leaves our troops open to abuses if captured as the captors can claim their own definition of the geneva convention..
the slippery slope to totalitarianism is well on it's way

[SVRACER01]

Capitalisim, has made it this way,
Old-Fashion facisim will take it away.

-Marilyn Manson

[beet]

We are not as free as we would like to think Mick .....
Some day we might have to fight Big brother again .
The people just don't seem to mind .
We are a nation of idiots .
We the USA are run by idiots .
Boomers are to old & blind & the kids don't care.
We let them make stupid laws so they don't have time for the smart ones .

[Stupidhawk007]

Remember remember the 5th of November..........................

[beet]

Originally posted by Stupidhawk007
Remember remember the 5th of November..........................

I vote .. Thats why I can bitch ...

[Stupidhawk007]

Originally posted by beet
I vote .. Thats why I can bitch ...

Eh? It wasn't a dig at you. Have you seen V for Vendetta? Watch it.

[WildBill]

You might try reading the Bill before you go off half cocked about how the Bush Goverment is trying to screw you out of your Rights. As you will see in the following section the Definition of this Bill is not agianst the American Citizen. You can read the whole Bill at http://www.firstgov.gov but I picked this chapter summary to make my point.

Sec. 948a. Definitions

`In this chapter:

`(1) ALIEN- The term `alien' means an individual who is not a citizen of the United States.

`(2) CLASSIFIED INFORMATION- The term `classified information' means the following:

`(A) Any information or material that has been determined by the United States Government pursuant to statute, Executive order, or regulation to require protection against unauthorized disclosure for reasons of national security.

`(B) Any restricted data, as that term is defined in section 11 y. of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2014(y)).

`(3) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- The term `lawful enemy combatant' means an individual who is--

`(A) a member of the regular forces of a State party engaged in hostilities against the United States;

`(B) a member of a militia, volunteer corps, or organized resistance movement belonging to a State party engaged in such hostilities, which are under responsible command, wear a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry their arms openly, and abide by the law of war; or

`(C) a member of a regular armed force who professes allegiance to a government engaged in such hostilities, but not recognized by the United States.

`(4) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means an individual engaged in hostilities against the United States who is not a lawful enemy combatant.

Now unless you are planning on a Government take over. This Bill has nothing to do with your Rights as an American.

[highsider]

Originally posted by WildBill

Now unless you are planning on a Government take over. This Bill has nothing to do with your Rights as an American.

Yes, but what if they *think* you are a terrorist, when in fact you are not.

Like that guy from Canada who was hauled over to Syria and tortured, when in fact he had no ties to any terrorsist groups at all. Just because someone thought he was a terrorist, he got to spend a few months in a tiny cell in which he couldn't lie down.

This bill is one step down a slippery slope on our way to a Police State.

[Stoneman]

Are people reading too much into this? Seriously. Naturally, we've got conservatives on one side saying it means one thing and lib's on the other side saying it means another. And that's getting WAY old...

Seriously...is this to protect us as Americans or is it a threat to us as Americans? I'm talking about this as an issue, NOT as one side vs. another or which political party you support or endorse. So no need to start quoting radio/television shows to make a point. I'd like to hear PERSONAL views on this. It has nothing to do with who you support. Your personal opinions on this as an American citizen...

[highsider]

Originally posted by Stoneman
Are people reading too much into this? Seriously. Naturally, we've got conservatives on one side saying it means one thing and lib's on the other side saying it means another. And that's getting WAY old...

Seriously...is this to protect us as Americans or is it a threat to us as Americans? I'm talking about this as an issue, NOT as one side vs. another or which political party you support or endorse. So no need to start quoting radio/television shows to make a point. I'd like to hear PERSONAL views on this. It has nothing to do with who you support. Your personal opinions on this as an American citizen...

All politics aside:

This is both meant to protect citizens AND a threat to citizens. It is a well intentioned step backwards in person rights and freedoms.

History has proven, several times over in the past, that giving a government the power to imprison people without a proper system of due process causes abuse of that power. Its how this country was founded, and is why the concept of habeas corpus was put at the forefront of the Bill of Rights.

We have already heard of one case where a man was detained and tortured when in fact he had nothing to do with terrorism. The only reason we heard it was because he was a Canadian citizen, who was returned to Canada, and spoke with Canadian press sources. I am certain there are more.

By allowing a government to lock people up and torture them if we think they are terrorists, we are giving them absolute power over anyone they label a "terrorist". In my opinion, there is no way this wont lead to abuse.

I understand the intent - this is intended to protect us all from terrorism. But the answer is not to allow the government to spy on us and lock us up on a whim called "terrorism".

[zombie]

Originally posted by Stoneman
Are people reading too much into this? Seriously. Naturally, we've got conservatives on one side saying it means one thing and lib's on the other side saying it means another. And that's getting WAY old...

Seriously...is this to protect us as Americans or is it a threat to us as Americans? I'm talking about this as an issue, NOT as one side vs. another or which political party you support or endorse. So no need to start quoting radio/television shows to make a point. I'd like to hear PERSONAL views on this. It has nothing to do with who you support. Your personal opinions on this as an American citizen...

I put it out there to see what sort of debate would arise.
I really feel the extremists on both sides of the political divide have too much say.
I believe we are in need of a viable third party of centrists to reign both parties back in and to spark an interest in politics again and to give a viable choice to those who are disillusioned with the two party system we have now.

[RandyO]

I don't see how a true conservative could support such a law

in my mind a conservative is one who wants to conserve the values and intent of our constitution, this bill is about as far from conservative as you can get

compare what has happened here in the US during the past 5 years with what happened in Germany in the 30's

[WildBill]

After reading the Bill summary I still stand by My Quote.
Now unless you are planning on a Government take over. This Bill has nothing to do with your Rights as an American.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by WildBill
After reading the Bill summary I still stand by My Quote.
Now unless you are planning on a Government take over. This Bill has nothing to do with your Rights as an American.

I didn't realize you were so nieve

[WildBill]

Originally posted by RandyO
I didn't realize you were so nieve

Not nieve, just a Realist.

[beet]

I agree

Originally posted by highsider
All politics aside:

This is both meant to protect citizens AND a threat to citizens. It is a well intentioned step backwards in person rights and freedoms.

History has proven, several times over in the past, that giving a government the power to imprison people without a proper system of due process causes abuse of that power. Its how this country was founded, and is why the concept of habeas corpus was put at the forefront of the Bill of Rights.

We have already heard of one case where a man was detained and tortured when in fact he had nothing to do with terrorism. The only reason we heard it was because he was a Canadian citizen, who was returned to Canada, and spoke with Canadian press sources. I am certain there are more.

By allowing a government to lock people up and torture them if we think they are terrorists, we are giving them absolute power over anyone they label a "terrorist". In my opinion, there is no way this wont lead to abuse.

I understand the intent - this is intended to protect us all from terrorism. But the answer is not to allow the government to spy on us and lock us up on a whim called "terrorism".

[capt1014]

And do you think that the government is going to be looking at EVERY SINGLE PERSON is the US?

[beet]

Trip words Fucking hey.
Ya can't fool around .

[richw]

Frankly I never understood that the

Rights of an American Citizen be extended to anyone who is found on American Soil......

The following makes sense to me.

US Citizen rights to US citizens.

Geneva Convention rights to uniformed Soldiers of the Signatory Countries.

Rights of foreign nationals in USA as per treaties.

No rights to foreign nationals accused of capital crimes, terrorism etc. Want to avoid this problem...don't be here.

No rights to enemy combatants/terrorists. Individuals found to be actively trying to engage USA forces in combat. See USA column moving toward you.. don't have weapons... Surrender immediately.. Answer all questions asked.. including ratting out anyone around you....

If you are found to be an enemy combatant then you should be held indefinitely or de facto convicted of plotting the death of Americans and sentence to life at hard labor.

Or given Texas citizenship and then they could be executed. There is NO difference between these terrorists and a child killer.

Please people try to remember that there is a large number of assholes who get up every morning thinking and trying ways to KILL YOUR CHILDREN.

[highsider]

Originally posted by richw
Frankly I never understood that the

Rights of an American Citizen be extended to anyone who is found on American Soil......

The following makes sense to me.

US Citizen rights to US citizens.

Geneva Convention rights to uniformed Soldiers of the Signatory Countries.

Rights of foreign nationals in USA as per treaties.

No rights to foreign nationals accused of capital crimes, terrorism etc. Want to avoid this problem...don't be here.

I agree with all of the above.

The part that makes me nervous is that the US government can whisk people away who ARE US citizens, or citizens of Geneva Convention countries, so long as they deem them a "terrorist" first.

If they were going to stick to what you just said, I'd be happy. But as we are learning, they are whisking people out of other countries like Canada and Germany, and shipping them to Syria, Cuba, etc. to torture them.

[benVFR]

I wonder if they need to rethink this video now...

Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters

[atek3]

Originally posted by WildBill
Not nieve, just a Realist.

See everyone is "against terrorism" when the terrorists are funny sounding foreigners who hate america. But I'd advice you to wait five years, and see the effects of this law.

Soon enough regular americans are going to be declared "terrorists" and "unlawful enemy combatants" and shipped off to the 21st century gulag, guantanamo. And Fox News will be right there cheering the "triumph of freedom and democracy".

Remember Clinton, when every gun owner that didn't like taxes was suddenly a "domestic terrorist waiting in the wings"? Wait for a few more amish school shootings, maybe another serious bombing or two by "right wing extremists", and a change in leadership in the US and it could get very bad for previously law-abiding gun owners very quickly.

The government is already spying on the anti-war movement. How long before they start spying on the gun-rights movement. Think that's too crazy? Then I think you should retract your statement regarding naivete...

atek3

[Josephd14]

Originally posted by atek3
See everyone is "against terrorism" when the terrorists are funny sounding foreigners who hate america. But I'd advice you to wait five years, and see the effects of this law.

Soon enough regular americans are going to be declared "terrorists" and "unlawful enemy combatants" and shipped off to the 21st century gulag, guantanamo. And Fox News will be right there cheering the "triumph of freedom and democracy".

Remember Clinton, when every gun owner that didn't like taxes was suddenly a "domestic terrorist waiting in the wings"? Wait for a few more amish school shootings, maybe another serious bombing or two by "right wing extremists", and a change in leadership in the US and it could get very bad for previously law-abiding gun owners very quickly.

The government is already spying on the anti-war movement. How long before they start spying on the gun-rights movement. Think that's too crazy? Then I think you should retract your statement regarding naivete...

atek3

I live in Massachusetts, we deal with this every day.. It's a crap shoot every time you go to get your license to carry renewed.. We do not need the Fed Goverment to take away our gun rights the state Goverments are doing just fine on there own..

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by atek3
The government is already spying on the anti-war movement.

Already? They've been doing that for every war of the 20th century...

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Stoneman
Already? They've been doing that for every war of the 20th century...

only the 20th century


aren't spies the 3rd oldest profession right behind prostitutes & surveyors