[TheIglu]

I think you need to realize that there IS a difference between questioning and disagreeing with a decision/policy/operation and supporting the troops.

Don't take a different opinion of how things are done to be the equivalent of turning a cold shoulder to our troops.

Yes, we know that the vast majority of the troops believe in what they are doing. It's their job to do so.

I don't understand how "Get our boys home safe and soon because we don't think the cause is worth their lives" is translated into "Fuck the troops". It's amazing how fast it turns to that though in some minds.

Stability over there relies on religious harmony, plain and simple. Military operations can not accomplish that. Can you blame people for questioning the motive or the procedure? To not do so is pretty moronic.

[Doc]

Originally posted by bigred875
I agree with everything you said

however

it is blantantly obvious the Iraq's don't know..and do not care what is good for them...they have dis banned teh army and the cops are walking around like the mob... imo i could really care less about what is best for the iraqi people..... the guys running the show need to stop playing politics and do the right thing...whatever that is... what is happening not is not working out

Iraq is steeped in tradition and religion. They have a certain way of doing things.
Let me give an example.
We had some Bedouins outside our camp, we wanted to ask them a bunch of stuff so we made contact with them, It took weeks just to get that far, then when we met with them (I was part of the security detail not the negotiations) and started talking it was all about family and wives and the weather and stuff... we didn't talk about the issues until our 3rd meeting...and nothing was resolved for 6 months!
Get it? They just do things differently. "It is as Allah wills it" They think that if they wait long enough things change because Allah wills it.
Some of them are becoming more "westernized" and they are politically clashing with the religous leaders (not good). This brings out sides and there are a whole lot more "religous" people there.
Doing the "right" thing is different to many. Some want westernization, some don't. ALL of them want a piece and want to have POWER. They are not willing to let go of what they have even if it means a better society. "It won't be better if I am not in charge." Is the mentality I saw.

This all will take time. More time then our instant gratification society is willing to accept.

My solution... There is no simple one. The people on the ground know what they are doing, give them the time and the resources and have the news stop reporting all the negative and start showing the positive.

Our Stars and Stripes
http://www.estripes.com/


For another perspective.

Kuwaiti Times
http://www.kuwaittimes.net/

Arab Times
http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/

Iraq Times
http://www.azzaman.com/english/

And even
Korean Herald
http://www.azzaman.com/english/

[bigred875]

ok? and how does any of that effect our nations security...the US military should not be nation building..and that is exactly what is going on now.. I agree that we cannot just "cut and run" but what exactly is our goal now? What does succeeding mean?

[Doc]

Originally posted by TheIglu
I think you need to realize that there IS a difference between questioning and disagreeing with a decision/policy/operation and supporting the troops.

Don't take a different opinion of how things are done to be the equivalent of turning a cold shoulder to our troops.

Yes, we know that the vast majority of the troops believe in what they are doing. It's their job to do so.

I don't understand how "Get our boys home safe and soon because we don't think the cause is worth their lives" is translated into "Fuck the troops". It's amazing how fast it turns to that though in some minds.

Stability over there relies on religious harmony, plain and simple. Military operations can not accomplish that. Can you blame people for questioning the motive or the procedure? To not do so is pretty moronic.

We are all free to question and disagree. What I don't get is how people disagree but don't do anything about it. They say to bring the troops home but is that what the troops want? Sure you can say they are brainwashed (because they all are uneducated lower class people who can't think for themselves) and don't know any better. But are you sure that is what they want?
Can explaining that bringing all our troops home soon won't fix anything and only make it worse appease these people?

You are right about stability and religous harmony. Yet how did Saddam have harmony? A minority ruling a majority through "scare tactics"? The religous stability also has stong ties with "Holy Wars". Who better to negotiate War then warriors? Who do oyu think is more effective in Iraq at "winning the hearts and minds". The soldier on the ground or politicians?

[Doc]

Originally posted by bigred875
ok? and how does any of that effect our nations security...the US military should not be nation building..and that is exactly what is going on now.. I agree that we cannot just "cut and run" but what exactly is our goal now? What does succeeding mean?

Do I have all the answers today or what.

In my feeble mind... :hmmm:

Succeding in Iraq means having a stable government with some form of democracy in place (whatever form they choose).

Stable government means that they can enforce their own laws and execute policy.

How long do you think that will take if just getting to issues in conversations takes 6 months?

[benVFR]

Give us an exective summary of where the progress is.

Republican leadership (other then the President, who's just trying to save face) doesn't even seem to believe there is progress anymore.

We've got more soldiers dying, more Iraqis taking up arms, the Iraqi security forces seem to be selling or giving away the weaponry we're providing for them to keep peace with.

What is going well? That companies that are involved in the making of weapons and reconstruction of Iraq are having great financial results? And I'm not kidding.. keep the Iraq war going and I'll be happy to ride that wave, I've got no issue going to work for a defense contractor. (I'm starting a new job in 2 weeks and technically I think I will be on that wave, even though I'm not going to work on a military project the company is heavily involved with the department of defense) But that still doesn't make the invasion and occupation "right".

This country is "by the people for the people". Telling people to shut up and act in lock step like a bunch of soldiers is a rotten thing to say. When we do that we cease to be the same country we are.

BTW.. how can you advocate an all-volunteer army and in the same sentence make it clear you think everyone should serve?

No one is questioning soldiers for doing their job. It's not a soldiers job to question orders. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with civilians questioning the government that put you in harms way. That's our right, the government is supposed to be accountable to the people, not the other way around. When it is not at all clear the war advances US interests in a positive way why the hell shouldn't we be questioning it.

[Doc]

Oh and it effects our security because that area has been a breeding ground for "militant extermeists" for centuries.


(Notice I have yet to use the word "Terrorist")

That will be another class.

Defining terrorism 101.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Doc
Do I have all the answers today or what.

In my feeble mind... :hmmm:

Succeding in Iraq means having a stable government with some form of democracy in place (whatever form they choose).

Stable government means that they can enforce their own laws and execute policy.

How long do you think that will take if just getting to issues in conversations takes 6 months?

no not really..lol the 3 tribes will never let any of that happen..the proof is in what is going on now...they are destroying all the progress they have made thus far..it is apparant the current plan if not work...so it is either time to change the plan..or forget the who thing and bow out "gracefully" I think you are misundestanding what i am saying..i was beating the same drum you are but enough is enough...

it has been 6 years and in that time we saw good progress to that goal...and then watched it crumble before our eyes...it isnt working...time to change....time for new leaders with a new approach..Lincoln got rid of his dead weight...W gives his medals

p.s. I voted for him twice

[beet]

Well. They say to bring the troops home but is that what the troops want? The troops do as ordered no more no less.
I like to read the free press & not Bush & Dick Chaney propaganda.

[benVFR]

Originally posted by Doc
We are all free to question and disagree. What I don't get is how people disagree but don't do anything about it. They say to bring the troops home but is that what the troops want? Sure you can say they are brainwashed (because they all are uneducated lower class people who can't think for themselves) and don't know any better. But are you sure that is what they want?
Can explaining that bringing all our troops home soon won't fix anything and only make it worse appease these people?

You are right about stability and religous harmony. Yet how did Saddam have harmony? A minority ruling a majority through "scare tactics"? The religous stability also has stong ties with "Holy Wars". Who better to negotiate War then warriors? Who do oyu think is more effective in Iraq at "winning the hearts and minds". The soldier on the ground or politicians?

What do you mean we're not doing anything about it. A lot of people are going to "do something" by voting and making it CLEAR to our leaders that we don't support the war. That's about all we can do. What are you suggesting, we all go enlist or sign up for OTS? And that includes Democrats needing to call out politicians who voted for the war even though their constituents didn't want them to. They need to go.. (e.x. Joe Lieberman.. time to reap what you sow Joe)

How is our occupation, imprisonment of Iraqis, trying to bend them to our will, etc.. not scare tactics in the same way Saddam's regime was? The only difference is he was able to do it in a competent manner.

No matter how the soldier behaves on the ground he is still an occupying force. You really believe how you act on the ground can do anything to make them not want you dead or gone yesterday? Would you accept them occupying your hometown?

[highsider]

Originally posted by TheIglu

I don't understand how "Get our boys home safe and soon because we don't think the cause is worth their lives" is translated into "Fuck the troops". It's amazing how fast it turns to that though in some minds.

I think history and the current circumstances have shown, time and time again, that that area of the world wants to fight and kill each other. They can call it "religion" and say its for "Allah", but at the end of the day, it s a big sandy bowl full of Arabs killing each other. Nothing we do is ever going to stop that, and we are only making matters worse at this point.

And as bigred said, we should not be nation building. We are not the parents of the entire fucking world. Every little shithole country's problems are not our problems. At the moment, we have plenty of our own problems.

Invading Iraq was a shitty idea to begin with, and it hasn't improved any since. Bring our ground forces home, bomb the insurgents if we know where they are, and call it quits. It will suck to be an Iraqi, but it has sucked to be an Iraqi for most of that country's history. The only way there will ever be peace ther is if we let them sort it out in their own way; us trying to install a western-style democracy is just pissing them off worse.

My point, Doc, is that I am sick of seeing Americans and Iraqis dying for a war predicated on bullshit and continuing in vain.

[beet]

Now he says we are firing him. I don't like Ned Lamont he's shifty. I might vote R on this one.

[Doc]

Originally posted by benVFR
Give us an exective summary of where the progress is.

Republican leadership (other then the President, who's just trying to save face) doesn't even seem to believe there is progress anymore.

They believe whatever will keep them in office

We've got more soldiers dying, more Iraqis taking up arms, the Iraqi security forces seem to be selling or giving away the weaponry we're providing for them to keep peace with.

More people die of AIDS in this country everyday then a month of soldiers. Why are security forces giving away weapons? Are we trying to train them too quickly or is it just that they belong to 3 seperate "tribes" and cannot come to an agreement overnight?

What is going well? That companies that are involved in the making of weapons and reconstruction of Iraq are having great financial results? And I'm not kidding.. keep the Iraq war going and I'll be happy to ride that wave, I've got no issue going to work for a defense contractor. (I'm starting a new job in 2 weeks and technically I think I will be on that wave, even though I'm not going to work on a military project the company is heavily involved with the department of defense) But that still doesn't make the invasion and occupation "right".

War certainly brings about financial boom, at least when things are going "well". Thankfully we have not hit a Depression yet.

This country is "by the people for the people". Telling people to shut up and act in lock step like a bunch of soldiers is a rotten thing to say. When we do that we cease to be the same country we are.

I am sorry if I came across that way, What I was trying to point out is actions speak louder than words.

BTW.. how can you advocate an all-volunteer army and in the same sentence make it clear you think everyone should serve?

I did not say people should have to go in the "Army" just a form of service, They can join the Peace Corps but that is another topic.

No one is questioning soldiers for doing their job. It's not a soldiers job to question orders. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with civilians questioning the government that put you in harms way. That's our right, the government is supposed to be accountable to the people, not the other way around. When it is not at all clear the war advances US interests in a positive way why the hell shouldn't we be questioning it.

Do not think that soldiers blindly question orders, we are not robots, we have eyes and minds and are just as capable as civilians to form opinions ( I think I am proving that) We just have a different perspective of which I am attempting to share. Positive Interests? You say yourself that the defense industry is booming Also there is that blanket of freedom given to you...

[highsider]

Originally posted by benVFR
What do you mean we're not doing anything about it. A lot of people are going to "do something" by voting and making it CLEAR to our leaders that we don't support the war. That's about all we can do. What are you suggesting, we all go enlist or sign up for OTS? And that includes Democrats needing to call out politicians who voted for the war even though their constituents didn't want them to. They need to go.. (e.x. Joe Lieberman.. time to reap what you sow Joe)

John Kerry voted for the war, then turned around and bashed Bush for it. I hate him. I wish he'd go for a ride in a car with Ted Kennedy.

[Doc]

Wow did I stir up a shit storm or what?


Good, good....Freedom of speech in action. I LIKE IT!

[Doc]

I can't type anymore...

Who wants to drunkenly debate this at the Drunkathon!

[bigred875]

Originally posted by benVFR
(e.x. Joe Lieberman.. time to reap what you sow Joe)

to bad too..i like liberman...lamont is part of the problem...he's a puppet jumping on the anti-war bandwagon...

[beet]

"More people die of AIDS in this country everyday then a month of soldiers. Why are security forces giving away weapons? Are we trying to train them too quickly or is it just that they belong to 3 seperate "tribes" and cannot come to an agreement overnight?"
So that makes it ok!

[beet]

Originally posted by bigred875
to bad too..i like liberman...lamont is part of the problem...he's a puppet jumping on the anti-war bandwagon...

liberman got a big pocket the 18years he's been in we lost good jobs. libermans a fucktard cunt.

[tonyd]

Originally posted by highsider


John Kerry voted for the war, then turned around and bashed Bush for it. I hate him. I wish he'd go for a ride in a car with Ted Kennedy.

Alot of people liked the idea of going into Iraq when Bush and Company was filling us full of WMD bullshit, so why can't we bash Bush when we figure out he made it up?

[bigred875]

Originally posted by beet
liberman got a big pocket the 18years he's been in we lost good jobs. libermans a fucktard cunt.

lol and lamont is the answer? lost jobs where? CT? that isnt his job anyways

liberman isn't a party guy, thats why i like him..he makes up his own mind, he actually has an opinion...lamont is another puppet spewing talking points

[bigred875]

Originally posted by tonyd
Alot of people liked the idea of going into Iraq when Bush and Company was filling us full of WMD bullshit, so why can't we bash Bush when we figure out he made it up?

cuz he didnt make it up....start spewing crap like that and this will get ugly....lol if there was any shread of proof to your acusations he would be impeached...and a lot of republicans would be leading the charge...but there isn't so let's keep this debate civil and intelligent...leave the talking points some place else

[beet]

I'm voting Rep. Lamont & Liberman sux

Originally posted by bigred875
lol and lamont is the answer? lost jobs where? CT? that isnt his job anyways

liberman isn't a party guy, thats why i like him..he makes up his own mind, he actually has an opinion...lamont is another puppet spewing talking points

[bigred875]

Originally posted by beet
I'm voting Rep. Lamont & Liberman sux

something opinions...something something assholes...how's that one go?

[tonyd]

Originally posted by bigred875
cuz he didnt make it up....start spewing crap like that and this will get ugly....lol if there was any shread of proof to your acusations he would be impeached...and a lot of republicans would be leading the charge...but there isn't so let's keep this debate civil and intelligent...leave the talking points some place else

1. Your right Bush is not bright enough to make that one up on his own but he's the president so he gets to take the heat for it.

2. I was replying to the "Kerry is a flip flopper" talking point.

3. I'm sure the proof of my acusation is sitting right beside the stockpiles of WMD refferences so often before the invasion... no wonder you can't find it.