[bigred875]

Originally posted by tonyd
1. Your right Bush is not bright enough to make that one up on his own but he's the president so he gets to take the heat for it.

2. I was replying to the "Kerry is a flip flopper" talking point.

3. I'm sure the proof of my acusation is sitting right beside the stockpiles of WMD refferences so often before the invasion... no wonder you can't find it.

write a letter to your congressman demanding him to impeach the president...until then pipe down with your 2 year old talking points

[beet]

Originally posted by bigred875
something opinions...something something assholes...how's that one go?

Yeah thats how it goes.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by beet
Yeah thats how it goes.

indeed

[Doc]

For your information it is VERY easy to make WMD with household chemicals.

Just because nothing was found does not mean Saddam did not have the Means, intent and/ or ability.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Doc
For your information it is VERY easy to make WMD with household chemicals.

Just because nothing was found does not mean Saddam did not have the Means, intent and/ or ability.

he had them...and he has used them....6 guys(i think..maybe 12..blitz and co.) guys looking for them in a country the size of california and they were held up for over 2 weeks before they were let in....

[Doc]

Originally posted by bigred875
he had them...and he has used them....6 guys(i think..maybe 12..blitz and co.) guys looking for them in a country the size of california and they were held up for over 2 weeks before they were let in....

I know he used em but people always ask where is the proof. So I explain how easy it is to get rid of the ingredients, that usually shuts em up.

Go mix Bleach and ammonia in the sink and see what you get?

[richw]

Saddam had desire.

Saddam actually had a progoganda campaign about his WMDs that he thought would keep his own citizens and the Iranians in check.

the threat of WMDs was supposed to make him safer.

The truth whatever it is will never be known.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Doc
I know he used em but people always ask where is the proof. So I explain how easy it is to get rid of the ingredients, that usually shuts em up.

Go mix Bleach and ammonia in the sink and see what you get?

and he had the intentions of getting more...and nuclear..

but in actuality once we deemed no WMD's we should have gotten out of there....i understand that isnt fair for the Iraqi's and we need to help them out but we are now going backwards, something needs to change...either we pull out or we come up with a different plan....maybe going infront of the UN admit we are screwing up and need help cleaning up the mess

[Doc]

Ok so we pull out. How? Quickly? slowly? What are the costs and consequences of each. What do we gain?

I understand that IF we stay in things need to change. The first thing that needs to change is the number of people getting killed. Then the American people will breathe a little easier. If there were no people getting killed what other things would be so horrendous?

That Iraqis have power and running water where they never have before? That some have a voice that never have before?

Do you want us to just wash our hands of this and have them fall into a full blown civil war (some say they already are) and watch more innocents die?

Do you think the region would be better off without our presence there?

Maybe we should just cut the country and 3 and put Shites, Sunnis and Kurds in there seperate "states". Oh wait THEY don't want that because no one can agree who is getting the better deal.

I don't want more American deaths and I don't want anyone there against thier will. I want people to research and get all the facts, not just the lopsided view they get in the papers.

Bush may be an idiot but he isn't the one making decisions, those are made long before he "gives approval" It has to do with money or power, our government is corrupt. We need a change and it has to start at the lowest forms of government.

VOTE!

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Doc
Ok so we pull out. How? Quickly? slowly? What are the costs and consequences of each. What do we gain?

if that is the decision the just pick up and leave, load up the trucks and carriers and bounce, asap...who cares? Our solidier arent dying for political reasons...i.e. nation building becase we broke their country and we feel we need to make it better.

That Iraqis have power and running water where they never have before? That some have a voice that never have before?

but we are making backwards progess in these areas....the big military they told us was up and running and has been disbanded...the cops are killing the citizens. Those people with the new found voice are promoting civil war so their tribe will be on top...we learned the hard way that we cannot undo thousands of years tradition by giving them water, electricity and dish network...they do not want what we want to give them.

Do you want us to just wash our hands of this and have them fall into a full blown civil war (some say they already are) and watch more innocents die?

are they americans dying? if not then yes..what will be..will be

Do you think the region would be better off without our presence there?

you are missing the point...that region is not our responsibility.

Maybe we should just cut the country and 3 and put Shites, Sunnis and Kurds in there seperate "states". Oh wait THEY don't want that because no one can agree who is getting the better deal.

you nailed it...that is the only solution...but even then they cannot come to an agreement...that war is thousands of years old...we are not going to change that...what we need to do is keep them from effecting our lives..

I don't want more American deaths and I don't want anyone there against thier will. I want people to research and get all the facts, not just the lopsided view they get in the papers.

you are preaching to the choir...do a quick search of my posts in this sub-forum

Bush may be an idiot but he isn't the one making decisions, those are made long before he "gives approval"

that may be true but in the end it is his responsibility...he can get rid of those making decisions....and it's time for him to do that...and i do vote

[Doc]

Quote:
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Do you think the region would be better off without our presence there?
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you are missing the point...that region is not our responsibility.


Quote:
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Maybe we should just cut the country and 3 and put Shites, Sunnis and Kurds in there seperate "states". Oh wait THEY don't want that because no one can agree who is getting the better deal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you nailed it...that is the only solution...but even then they cannot come to an agreement...that war is thousands of years old...we are not going to change that...what we need to do is keep them from effecting our lives..


Ok so we pick up and leave? Don't you think the region would effect our lives even worse?

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Doc
Quote:
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Do you think the region would be better off without our presence there?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you are missing the point...that region is not our responsibility.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe we should just cut the country and 3 and put Shites, Sunnis and Kurds in there seperate "states". Oh wait THEY don't want that because no one can agree who is getting the better deal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you nailed it...that is the only solution...but even then they cannot come to an agreement...that war is thousands of years old...we are not going to change that...what we need to do is keep them from effecting our lives..


Ok so we pick up and leave? Don't you think the region would effect our lives even worse?

how?

[Doc]

Would Chaos and instability would effect the region?

Escalating violence, civil war, more militants to worry about because now "the Americans left us". We can't just pull out like Vietnam because things are not going well, ask the Vets. Is it because they are brainwashed that they want to "finish the job" or is it because they see progress?

Look what the area spawned when we weren't there before.

Look what is happening in Korea. The next "hotbed".

Do you recall what happened on 9/11/01? Or Even the first Trade center attacks? Has anything like that happened on our shores since? Do you think it is because we stayed home?

I won't even get into the whole "oil" argument but Prices would go up. (we need to be less dependent here)

If we just pull out I predict a massive outcry from Iraq and the area. I predict MORE hatred will be born and we will see MORE acts of violence around the world.


These are my thought but you bring up valid points as well.

[richw]

3 factions

2 oil fields

I vote for developing our bases near the oil fields and a

staged date certain for areas of Iraq.

Big parade march out of curd land

4 months later march out of a shia strong hold

4 months later march out of a Suni stronghold.

The watch what happens and adjust

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Doc
[b]Would Chaos and instability would effect the region?

probably

Is it because they are brainwashed that they want to "finish the job" or is it because they see progress?

of course not...but they do not call the shots...this decision is above their pay grade

Look what the area spawned when we weren't there before.

and that would be?

Look what is happening in Korea. The next "hotbed".

saddam is not in power...apple and oranges.

Do you recall what happened on 9/11/01? Or Even the first Trade center attacks? Has anything like that happened on our shores since? Do you think it is because we stayed home?

yes and again you are missing the point and arguing with me on something we agree on...I agree that there is a war on terror going. I think we are doing a better job then before then but you have to be naive to think the only reason there hasnt been an attack is because we are doing such a good job at keeping us safe....

I won't even get into the whole "oil" argument but Prices would go up.

is that better then our troops dying? this is not and never has been a war about oil. nevermind the fact that as crazy as they are over there they know oil is there bread and butter...OPEC wouldnt let it get that out of control...and we get virtually no oil from iraq

If we just pull out I predict a massive outcry from Iraq and the area. I predict MORE hatred will be born and we will see MORE acts of violence around the world.

and we can fed-ex them tissues lol

I am not saying pulling out is the right answer..just saying it is better then what is happening now. I agree that we should try to help them rebuild their country....but they need to want it...and we need a better plan..

your thought were my thought up until probably the begining of this year i just think it's time for something else to happen...we are like treading water and teh sharks are picking off the troops one by one...eventually there won't be any more so when is it time to regroup and come up with plan B

[benVFR]

Originally posted by Doc
[b]Would Chaos and instability would effect the region?

How would it be different right now? Occupying foreign army, militant insurgency, bombings every day, infrastructure trashed, thousands and thousands of dead civilians, etc..

Sounds like chaos and instability. If we leave we replace chaos + instability + occupying "infidel" army with chaos + instability. When the average citizen now views us as a part of the problem if we remove one of the 3 problems they will probably think it's better.

Escalating violence, civil war, more militants to worry about because now "the Americans left us". We can't just pull out like Vietnam because things are not going well, ask the Vets. Is it because they are brainwashed that they want to "finish the job" or is it because they see progress?

We have escalating violence right now. Whether or not it already qualifies as a civil war is debatable. Obviously the insurgents don't like the government we put in place. That could be called a civil war IMO. Obviously Bush and the administration have been working overtime to keep us all from calling it a civil war, that's the only reason we're not all calling it civil war.

I don't know if you are specifically referring to the views of enlisted men in Iraq or officers, or the military as a whole. I get the distinct impression the enlisted men and officers have differing opinions about how things are going in Iraq. But everything we get here is Propaganda, whether it's military propaganda to keep enlisted moral up or media propaganda. We get occasional input from people like yourself who have been to Iraq but we never hear what their rank was. Personally the people that I have known well who have been to Iraq are 1 enlisted person (relative) and 2 officers (friends). The enlisted guy doesn't really know what to say about the whole thing, the guys who are officers both think the situation is a mess and not going well. None of them really want to talk about it.. they just want to move on. Same thing when I see things in the press. Upper level officers are way more likely to be criticizing the war effort.

Look what the area spawned when we weren't there before.

Arguably we have hurt the situation on the street for the average Iraqi, why do you think they're so unhappy? People need to keep in mind democracy vs. dictator vs. communism is all moot when there is no food on the table. No one cares about representative government until they are well fed, safe, and are worried about their place in the world. If they think they're going to be less likely to die under a new dictator they're going to want that. They won't be ready for democracy until they have time to worry about it.

Look what is happening in Korea. The next "hotbed".

Not sure how we can really predict anything about Korea from Iraq. Too different situations. We should have focused on Korea and ignored Iraq.

Do you recall what happened on 9/11/01? Or Even the first Trade center attacks? Has anything like that happened on our shores since? Do you think it is because we stayed home?

No I don't think Iraq has made us any safer or prevented another 9/11 level attack. The majority of Americans feel this way now. The scare tactics aren't working anymore.

I won't even get into the whole "oil" argument but Prices would go up. (we need to be less dependent here)

I doubt anyone would disagree with this but more wars in the middle east will not be an energy solution. That oil isn't going to last anyway and even if we have stability we are going to have to compete with the Chinese and Indians, oil prices are going to go up no matter what until we get a real strategy to get off oil. Obviously something that's not going to happen as long as big oil controls washington.

If we just pull out I predict a massive outcry from Iraq and the area. I predict MORE hatred will be born and we will see MORE acts of violence around the world.

You're free to predict that, I will predict the opposite at least outside of Iraq. If Bush pulls out we will save a lot of face, many of our allies may view us more highly again. I think if Bush continues to flail around without direction until he leaves office we will have squandered that though. Say a Democrat wins in 2008 and pulls out in 2009 or 2010 our allies will still view us badly. Bush needs to be the one to get this solved in order for us really to save face.

[Doc]

I agree with RichW on the point of build bases watch and adjust. Isn't that what we are doing?


Bigred... Again you bring up valid points and I find it difficult to explain using this medium.

You and I agree on alot of things, there are just a few differing points.

Kinda like the Iraqi's.

We need to change what we are doing because politicians and money hungry defense cotractors and Oil conglomerates are not listening to the Generals on the ground. (Those decisions are in their pay grade).

What is being said by the Generals is "Stay the course, give me what I need and we will have stability" (notice I did not say VICTORY because I do not believe it is about that).

Is this because they are war mongers and baby killers? Is it because they want job security? Are they just stubborn? Maybe. Or is it because they believe they can make a difference.

100 soldiers a month may die but there are alot more insurgents dying. Is that a good thing? Well it depends on your perspective I guess.

Yes the insurgents are coming in from all over but we are handing them their asses. Yes they have seen and fought centuries of wars (the Soviets most recently) but I think we are doing a better job than they were (the Soviets).

Ahh typing.. I am getting a backache and a wristache.

Are you guys gonna be at the drunkathon? I'll buy you a beer. You too Rich. (And I can't forget Beet)

[bigred875]

get the distinct impression the enlisted men and officers have differing opinions about how things are going in Iraq. But everything we get here is Propaganda, whether it's military propaganda to keep enlisted moral up or media propaganda.

every inlisted person i have talked agree with the cause and disagree with the way it is being done...

i maybe at said drunkathon

[odduc]

Again, I say we bomb the shit out of the insugent strongholds.
Step back and ask if they're ready to talk. If not, repeat bombing.
Yes, beat the savages into submission. But do so at a safe distance and with minimal soldiers on the ground. Our soldiers are needed, here on our soil, doing their Constitutional duty. We have incredible technological resources and incredible firepower. WHY are we afraid to use it in order to keep our soldiers safe ?

[tonyd]

Originally posted by Doc
For your information it is VERY easy to make WMD with household chemicals.

Just because nothing was found does not mean Saddam did not have the Means, intent and/ or ability.

I miss the good old days when we only went to war when someone had nerve enough to blow our entire Pacific Fleet out of the water. Now we feel the need to invade every country that looks at us cross eyed.

The arguement that no one has presented a plan to pull out is bogus, you have to admit the need to get out (at least to your self) before you can effectively plan how to do it, the admin is unable to change it's course of action on any issue. I have not hear of an effective plan thats been presented to stay and win either.

When generals start talking about fighting another 5 years... its not going well.

While we are "fixing" Irag, have any of you been keeping track of whats going on in Russia? Maybe you should, all is not well.

I have a friend due back from Iraq in November. He's spent the last 1.5 years on a Medical Chopper flying wounded and dead out of "hot spots" and watching his 2 kids grow up via email. I'll "pipe down" as bigRed requested until I have a chance to see what he has to say about things.

[Rick Lee]

Guys i really have to appluade all of you. That was one of the most grown up forum discussions i have ever followed. Everyone raise great points and i look forward to hangin out with you at the drunkathon

[Doc]

I too am liking this forum. Very Mature.

That is why I keep posting, even though it is giving me a headache.

It is frustrating that I can't get my points across adaquately.

There are MANY things I agree on that have been said by others but then some lil thing will throw it off for me.

And for the record. I am enlisted, a Staff Sergeant/E-6. I was going to OCS but stopped because officers don't "work".

I am a Medic on top of that. Hence the name "Doc". (Although I am an old infantry soldier with 16 years in 6 of them on active duty).

[bigred875]

Originally posted by odduc
Again, I say we bomb the shit out of the insugent strongholds.
Step back and ask if they're ready to talk. If not, repeat bombing.
Yes, beat the savages into submission. But do so at a safe distance and with minimal soldiers on the ground. Our soldiers are needed, here on our soil, doing their Constitutional duty. We have incredible technological resources and incredible firepower. WHY are we afraid to use it in order to keep our soldiers safe ?

fine by me

[Doc]

We DO use the technology!

Carpet bombing...? Wouldn't that kill innocents by our hand?

Might as well nuke em till they glow and bomb the bright spots.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by tonyd
I miss the good old days when we only went to war when someone had nerve enough to blow our entire Pacific Fleet out of the water. Now we feel the need to invade every country that looks at us cross eyed.

The arguement that no one has presented a plan to pull out is bogus, you have to admit the need to get out (at least to your self) before you can effectively plan how to do it, the admin is unable to change it's course of action on any issue. I have not hear of an effective plan thats been presented to stay and win either.

When generals start talking about fighting another 5 years... its not going well.

While we are "fixing" Irag, have any of you been keeping track of whats going on in Russia? Maybe you should, all is not well.

I have a friend due back from Iraq in November. He's spent the last 1.5 years on a Medical Chopper flying wounded and dead out of "hot spots" and watching his 2 kids grow up via email. I'll "pipe down" as bigRed requested until I have a chance to see what he has to say about things.

i agree with everything you just said....thatnks for leaving out the rhetoric