[benVFR]

So would that be acceptable? Is that staying the course?

Talking to a conservative tonight us being in Iraq for 50 years was brought forward as a sensible option. Because we are still "In" Japan and Germany.

Is it me or is that fucking insane.

What is a reasonable time table to get out of Iraq? What is success? What metrics point to success?

I see the # of insurgent attacks as a powerful metric. Those do not appear to be trending towards success. I see the # of US casualties as a powerful metric. Those do not appear to be trending the direction I would like to see.

I think the answer is FAR more troops need to be sent to Iraq. Like another 100,000. Whatever the military thinks it needs. We as a country would need to seriously re-examine things. (e.x. I bet the draft would be required.) But I can't see any way the situation is going to improve unless we can totally lock the country down like we did after WW2. Only when that is done can the "metrics" go in the right direction. A number I see as valid is the ratio of occupying soldiers to Iraqi citizens versus past US occuptations. Our technology should allow us to get by with a lower ratio then in the past, but we have pushed that too far.

If we keep trying to "stay the course" while being underprepared no matter when we finally leave it's going to be just like Vietnam IMO.

[Stoneman]

Why is it the word 'Vietnam' keeps creeping into most liberals interpretation of this? It's NOTHING like - nor will it EVER be ANYTHING like - Vietnam...

I say we have a bake sale...

[bentbryan]

Uhhh...we lost more troops in a week during Vietnam than we have in Iraq up to this point. Don't see the comparison.

I too think we need more troops. We also need to reinstate the draft if we're serious about winning.

[richw]

I have the opinion that our military directors are very happy when we can establish forward bases in a region.

I am sure that we would be better off with a standing deployment near the oil fields next to Iran.

That is if the killing would stop.


Well we know that the Iraqi insurgents and Al Qaeda has voted for change in the USA election. Who wants to bet that the violence deceases markedly after November 7. If we were smart we should have hid out and stayed low till after the election.

If the demos get in watch the violence track the house votes

[benVFR]

It's like Vietnam in that it's pointless and there is no end in sight. I see it as Vietnam in that Bush does not have the balls required to win the war, and he's just going to ride it out with further bloodshed until he gets out. And then whoever gets in office next is just going to do the same thing, until finally it's like 95% disapproval. Then we will flee and our last soldiers will run away under enemy fire like Vietnam.

Where is the progress? What is the twisted republican redefinition of "success" that makes this war a success?

That's my favorite Bullshit Republican excuse for why we should be in Iraq. "We still haven't lost as many people as Vietnam or WWIII, that means it's going well!"

[bigred875]

Originally posted by benVFR
It's like Vietnam in that it's pointless and there is no end in sight. I see it as Vietnam in that Bush does not have the balls required to win the war, and he's just going to ride it out with further bloodshed until he gets out. And then whoever gets in office next is just going to do the same thing, until finally it's like 95% disapproval. Then we will flee and our last soldiers will run away under enemy fire like Vietnam.

Where is the progress? What is the twisted republican redefinition of "success" that makes this war a success?

That's my favorite Bullshit Republican excuse for why we should be in Iraq. "We still haven't lost as many people as Vietnam or WWIII, that means it's going well!"

it's been going on almost as long as WWII

[benVFR]

Not the occupation.

That was what I was getting at. "We were in Germany for 50 years, we're still in Japan, we can stay in Iraq for that long too."

Just begs the question when the Iraqis will stop shooting at us so much. If they don't stop there is no way the voting public is going to let the government stay there.

[beet]

we cant win this stupid war the longer we stay the worst it gets. The only thing we are going to get is wooped.
bentbryan smokes the bush pipe.
keep up the good work Chris get um.

Originally posted by highsider
So let me get this straight - you think I should have to go over to fight in a war based on a complete sham (WMDs), that has been poorly led through its entirety, and has no effective goals at the moment other than "staying the course"?

Gee, thanks buddy.

[highsider]

Originally posted by beet
we cant win this stupid war the longer we stay the worst it gets. The only thing we are going to get is wooped.
bentbryan smokes the bush pipe.
keep up the good work Chris get um.

LOL....I deleted the post because I didn't want to get into the argument with Bryan (or anyone else).

Sometimes arguing politics with some people on here is like trying to teach a pig to sing - it gets you nowhere and irritates the pig.

[beet]

Just that Bryan pisses me off, about bush does no wrong shit.
It's hard to make the blind see, when he won't look!
Bryan & I have history of this.

Originally posted by highsider
LOL....I deleted the post because I didn't want to get into the argument with Bryan (or anyone else).

Sometimes arguing politics with some people on here is like trying to teach a pig to sing - it gets you nowhere and irritates the pig.

PS delited
He hates you to.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by beet
we cant win this stupid war the longer we stay the worst it gets. The only thing we are going to get is wooped.
bentbryan smokes the bush pipe.
keep up the good work Chris get um.

i disagree..i think the draft is exactly what we need....people will really start paying attention then...esp the congress if they had their sons and daughters getting drafted..

[bigred875]

Originally posted by highsider
Sometimes arguing politics with some people on here is like trying to teach a pig to sing - it gets you nowhere and irritates the pig.

you can say that again!

[highsider]

Originally posted by beet
Just that Bryan pisses me off, about bush does no wrong shit.
It's hard to make the blind see, when he won't look!
Bryan & I have history of this.


PS delited
He hates you to.

I dont hate Bryan, I just dont want to argue politics with him. He and I will never agree on that subject, so I dont see the point in arguing with him.

I always enjoyed BSing politics with bigred, as he makes some valid, fact-based points. We rarely agree, but he doesn't give the knee-jerk "Democrats hate this country" answer to everything. Truthfully, my outlook on some things has changed after talking with him on here.

[odduc]

Move out all the troops. Bomb the piss out of the mosques the insurgents are hiding in and call it a day. Civilian casualties are OK as they all hate us regardless of how nice we try to play. No more MR. Niceguy, time for MR. MOAB !

Our troops would be better off defending our own borders and we would all truly appreciate it. Iraq, unfortunately, will never be a democracy.

[tonyd]

Originally posted by bentbryan

I too think we need more troops. We also need to reinstate the draft if we're serious about winning.

I agree the Quickest way to end the war is to reinstate the draft, but the end won't be the result of more troops. It will be the overwhelming outcry from the middle and upper income families when they see their child headed off the fight. So far it's been someone elses kid. A draft would send every high school and college campus into instant and continued anti war protest, something that has been missing as the war is being waged on the backs of lower and working class families of the "Volunteer" military and military reserve.

[Joe_ZX7R]

Originally posted by bigred875
...esp the congress if they had their sons and daughters getting drafted..

How very michael moore-ish...

hey, name one person out there who didn't understand what the word "military" means, and is out there against their will.

[bentbryan]

Originally posted by beet
Just that Bryan pisses me off, about bush does no wrong shit.
It's hard to make the blind see, when he won't look!
Bryan & I have history of this.


PS delited
He hates you to.

Bush does no wrong? LOL. Yeah right. I just think Bush-bashers are moon-bats!

[bentbryan]

In the history of the world, no war that has ever been fought on foreign soil has been won with a volunteer army.

[beet]

Is foolish we started a war we can't win. So lets throw more $ & men @ it. Now thats smart.

[TheIglu]

Originally posted by beet
Is foolish we started a war we can't win. So lets throw more $ & men @ it. Now thats smart.

C'mon beet, they are "Testing our resolve" and shit! If you don't "stay the course" then they will win the imaginary war of pride, not the reality that is a war of lives!

Vote republican for more years of unmeasured success!

[Doc]

Ok all you who are currently in the military raise your hand.

The rest of you shut the fuck up about "the troops".

Maybe this is the Guiness talking and maybe I am about to lose some friends but...

I have friends that are there, I have friends that have died there, Hell I was over there for a year (although not in any "action").

I have the following points, please bear with me.

I can honestly say that the overwhelming majority of servicemembers believe in what is going on over there and support it. Be that one more year or 50. If you haven't been there and seen it first hand you have no basis to discuss what is best for the people of Iraq.

If you are in the military and joined "for the college money" you are a damn fool and don't belong in college.

the Soldier does not concern themself with all the sob's hanging out in coffee shops, speaking on the news, talking and critisizing, they are full of it!
Anyone can talk about what should be done but most won't do anything about it. They lack the intestinal fortitude to commit to anything that requires risk! I am talking about the snide arrogant sort who spend their day blaming America for every wrong in the world before going home to sleep at night under that blanket of freedom provided for them.

These so called experts are ready to give advice but are never ready to ruck up and close with the enemy. These pessimistic talking heads, the high brow newspaper writers, the Hollywood idiots or any other faction of the blame America first crowd are simple background chatter. They are not worthy of a soldiers concern. When policy makers have finished talking. When debate has ceased. When negotiations have failed and orders are given It becomes the soldiers mission to execute national policy.

A soldiers moral clarity won't let them allow themselves to sit back and let someone else provide the blanket of freedom that we cherish and so many others take for granted.

They should not ever think that the protestors, the kids running around on college campuses, breaking things, and whining about this and that have anything on them, the soldier knows and has the facts about war for he has seen it first hand.

This is the life the soldier CHOOSES. There is NO more noble profession.

I may sound full of it to some but I will not apologize for being a soldier, nor a patriot. The people who give the orders are placed there by the voters.
If you want to change it. VOTE!


I now return you to your regular sober programming.

[Doc]

Wow! Did I write that?

Sorry fellas I was in a drunken rant I suppose. I mean I belive in everything I said but jeesh.....

I guess I just get tired of... stuff.

The way I feel is that our being in Iraq sucks, that Americans dying over there sucks and that we will be there for a LONG time sucks too.

But isn't it worth it IF it brings stability to that area of the world?

What happens if we leave? What happens if we don't do anything about Korea or Somalia or ...

Wouldn't you rather we fight them there then here?

Do you honestly think we can just pull out and leave them to thier own devices and see no consequences?

An all volunteer military is the only way to go. I believe that EVERYONE should serve. I think that right outta High school you should have to do some form of services for a year or two before college. That won't happen in my lifetime.

You know what you would get in a draft? All the High brow whiners that don't want to be there. Don't you think that would decrease combat effectiveness?

I will stop now before I start ranting again.

Peace.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by highsider


I dont hate Bryan, I just dont want to argue politics with him. He and I will never agree on that subject, so I dont see the point in arguing with him.

I always enjoyed BSing politics with bigred, as he makes some valid, fact-based points. We rarely agree, but he doesn't give the knee-jerk "Democrats hate this country" answer to everything. Truthfully, my outlook on some things has changed after talking with him on here.

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Joe_ZX7R
How very michael moore-ish...

hey, name one person out there who didn't understand what the word "military" means, and is out there against their will.

you missed the point..once again..i guess somethings dont change

It will be the overwhelming outcry from the middle and upper income families when they see their child headed off the fight. So far it's been someone elses kid.

at this point it is shit or get off the pot...

[bigred875]

Originally posted by Doc
Wow! Did I write that?

Sorry fellas I was in a drunken rant I suppose. I mean I belive in everything I said but jeesh.....

I guess I just get tired of... stuff.

The way I feel is that our being in Iraq sucks, that Americans dying over there sucks and that we will be there for a LONG time sucks too.

But isn't it worth it IF it brings stability to that area of the world?

What happens if we leave? What happens if we don't do anything about Korea or Somalia or ...

Wouldn't you rather we fight them there then here?

Do you honestly think we can just pull out and leave them to thier own devices and see no consequences?

An all volunteer military is the only way to go. I believe that EVERYONE should serve. I think that right outta High school you should have to do some form of services for a year or two before college. That won't happen in my lifetime.

You know what you would get in a draft? All the High brow whiners that don't want to be there. Don't you think that would decrease combat effectiveness?

I will stop now before I start ranting again.

Peace.

I agree with everything you said

however

what is best for the people of Iraq.

it is blantantly obvious the Iraq's don't know..and do not care what is good for them...they have dis banned teh army and the cops are walking around like the mob... imo i could really care less about what is best for the iraqi people..... the guys running the show need to stop playing politics and do the right thing...whatever that is... what is happening not is not working out