[Doc]

Eye of the Beholder
by Victor Davis Hanson
The American Enterprise Online

War-torn Iraq has about 26 million residents, a peaceful California

perhaps now 35 million. The former is a violent and impoverished
landscape, the latter said to be paradise on Earth. But how you
envision either place to some degree depends on the eye of the beholder
and is predicated on what the daily media appear to make of each.

As a fifth-generation Californian, I deeply love this state, but still
imagine what the reaction would be if the world awoke each morning to be
told that once again there were six more murders, 27 rapes, 38 arsons, 180
robberies, and 360 instances of assault in California - yesterday, today,
tomorrow, and every day. I wonder if the headlines would scream about
"Nearly 200 poor Californians butchered again this month!"

How about a monthly media dose of "600 women raped in February alone!"
Or try, "Over 600 violent robberies and assaults in March, with no end in
sight!" Those do not even make up all of the state's yearly 200,000
violent acts that law enforcement knows about.

Iraq's judicial system seems a mess. On the eve of the war, Saddam let out
100,000 inmates from his vast prison archipelago. He himself still sits in
the dock months after his trial began. But imagine an Iraq with a penal
system like California's with 170,000 criminals - an inmate population
larger than those of Germany, France, the Netherlands, and Singapore
combined.

Just to house such a shadow population costs our state nearly $7
billion a year - or about the same price of keeping 40,000 Army personnel
per year in Iraq. What would be the image of our Golden State if we were
reminded each morning, "Another $20 million spent today on housing our
criminals"?

Some of California's most recent prison scandals would be easy to
sensationalize: "Guards watch as inmates are raped!" Or "Correction
officer accused of having sex with under-aged detainee!" And apropos of
Saddam's sluggish trial, remember that our home state multiple
murderer, Tookie Williams, was finally executed in December 2005 - 26
years after he was originally sentenced.

Much is made of the inability to patrol Iraq's borders with Iran,
Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Turkey. But California has only
a single border with a foreign nation, not six. Yet over 3 million
foreigners who sneaked in illegally now live in our state. Worse, there
are about 15,000 convicted alien felons incarcerated in our penal system,
costing about $500 million a year. Imagine the potential tabloid
headlines: "Illegal aliens in state comprise population larger than San
Francisco!" or "Drugs, criminals, and smugglers given free pass into
California!"

Every year, over 4,000 Californians die in car crashes - nearly twice
the number of Americans lost so far in three years of combat operations
in Iraq. In some sense, then, our badly maintained roads, and often poorly
trained and sometimes intoxicated drivers, are even more lethal than
Improvised Explosive Devices. Perhaps tomorrow's headline might scream
out at us: "300 Californians to perish this month on state highways!
Hundreds more will be maimed and crippled!"

In 2001, California had 32 days of power outages, despite paying nearly
the highest rates for electricity in the United States. Before
complaining about the smoke in Baghdad rising from private generators,
think back to the run on generators in California when they were
contemplated as future part of every household's line of defense.

We're told that Iraq's finances are a mess. Yet until recently, so were
California's. Two years ago, Governor Schwarzenegger inherited a $38
billion annual budget shortfall. That could have made for strong
morning newscast teasers: "Another $100 million borrowed today - $3
billion more in red ink to pile up by month's end!"

So is California comparable to Iraq? Hardly. Yet it could easily be
sketched by a reporter intent on doing so as a bankrupt, crime-ridden
den with murderous highways, tens of thousands of inmates, with wide-open
borders.

I myself recently returned home to California, without incident, from a
visit to Iraq's notorious Sunni Triangle. While I was gone, a
drug-addicted criminal with a long list of convictions broke into our
kitchen at 4 a.m., was surprised by my wife and daughter, and fled with
our credit cards, cash, keys, and cell phones.

Sometimes I wonder who really was safer that week.

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by Doc
[b]Eye of the Beholder
by Victor Davis Hanson
The American Enterprise Online

War-torn Iraq has about 26 million residents, a peaceful California perhaps now 35 million. The former is a violent and impoverished
landscape, the latter said to be paradise on Earth. But how you
envision either place to some degree depends on the eye of the beholder
and is predicated on what the daily media appear to make of each.

Every year, over 4,000 Californians die in car crashes - nearly twice the number of Americans lost so far in three years of combat operations in Iraq. In some sense, then, our badly maintained roads, and often poorly trained and sometimes intoxicated drivers, are even more lethal than Improvised Explosive Devices. Perhaps tomorrow's headline might scream
out at us: "300 Californians to perish this month on state highways![b]

Wow, if California has the same number of residents as Iraq, and more californians die each year in car crashes than Americans are killed in Iraq, this must mean that driving a car is more dangerous than being a soldier!

Oh, wait. Except, of those 26 Million Iraqi residents, only 170k are US soldiers. So It's 4000 car crashes out of 35 million for California, 2000 soldier deaths out of 170k for Iraq. Makes you wonder why they never mentioned the number of soldies deployed to Iraq in the article, but instead mentioned the total popluation of Iraq, an irrelevant number when talking about the number of American soldiers lost.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[highsider]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
Wow, if California has the same number of residents as Iraq, and more californians die each year in car crashes than Americans are killed in Iraq, this must mean that driving a car is more dangerous than being a soldier!

Oh, wait. Except, of those 26 Million Iraqi residents, only 170k are US soldiers. So It's 4000 car crashes out of 35 million for California, 2000 soldier deaths out of 170k for Iraq. Makes you wonder why they never mentioned the number of soldies deployed to Iraq in the article, but instead mentioned the total popluation of Iraq, an irrelevant number when talking about the number of American soldiers lost.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Additionally, I pay federal taxes, so I care what happens to the citizens of California. I do not like having my tax dollars spent (or the lives of soldiers who are paid to protect me) on trying to create a democracy in a nation of religious zealots who all want to kill each other no matter what we do, so this is kind of a crappy comparison.

[Honclfibr]

You kind of have to admire the pundits here, they're actually trying to convince us that they can show "scientologically" that war is neither dangerous, nor expensive.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
Wow, if California has the same number of residents as Iraq, and more californians die each year in car crashes than Americans are killed in Iraq, this must mean that driving a car is more dangerous than being a soldier!

Oh, wait. Except, of those 26 Million Iraqi residents, only 170k are US soldiers. So It's 4000 car crashes out of 35 million for California, 2000 soldier deaths out of 170k for Iraq. Makes you wonder why they never mentioned the number of soldies deployed to Iraq in the article, but instead mentioned the total popluation of Iraq, an irrelevant number when talking about the number of American soldiers lost.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Ok the first quote speaks about the Iraqis under Saddam (Hang fucker) not about when American Soldiers were there.

The second quote compares American deaths in California (ie MVC) to American deaths in Iraq (via "WAR")

Hope that clears it up.

My whole point is that taken in perspective and if reported correctly the war is not going as bad as the media makes it out.

Hell we lost more Americans to ONE DAY of terrorism than in the WHOLE war!

With all due respect and honor to those who have perished.

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by Doc
The second quote compares American deaths in California (ie MVC) to American deaths in Iraq (via "WAR")

Which is completely meaningless without the additional context of "how many american soldiers are in Iraq".

I can go find out how many people die in china every day, and it will be a huge number compared to the number of american soldiers who die in Iraq, but that doesn't mean that China is more dangerous than Iraq, it means that China is a huge fucking country with lots of people.

Similarly, the number of people who die in automobile accidents in california each year has nothing to do with the number of soldiers who die in Iraq each year because the number of Californians is huge compared to the number of soldiers currently deployed in Iraq.

The article is deliberately taking statistics out of context in order to pretend that it's proving a point which is in fact false. Iraq is not safer than california, driving is not more dangerous than being a soldier.

[Doc]

Well put.

Point taken.

More people in California than Soldiers in Iraq = poor comparison.

We don't give a shit about the Iraqi's dying.

[richw]

We have been in Iraq 3 1/2 years

So Cali highways have killed 14000 Americans... Well its California so say 12000 Americans and 2000 Mexicans.

War Sucks

Iraq War Sucks

But supposedly we have lost near 3000 there, there are estimated by the libs 650000 dead Iraqis.

Pull back guard the boarder with Syria and Iran and mostly guard their oil infrastructure.

I hate to tell you this there are situations that do not have a happy ending. You have the Hobson's choice of the lesser of 2 evils. USA soldiers in a permanent occupation or Oil resources in the hands of the Iranians and terrorists on a rampage.

Yes in hindsight we should have reconnoitered in force from Afghanistan into Iran.

I hope we are still smart enough to have an active destabilization program in Iran.... Thank You Jimmy Carter for giving us modern Iran.

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by richw
We have been in Iraq 3 1/2 years

So Cali highways have killed 14000 Americans... Well its California so say 12000 Americans and 2000 Mexicans.

War Sucks

Iraq War Sucks

But supposedly we have lost near 3000 there, there are estimated by the libs 650000 dead Iraqis.

Pull back guard the boarder with Syria and Iran and mostly guard their oil infrastructure.

I hate to tell you this there are situations that do not have a happy ending. You have the Hobson's choice of the lesser of 2 evils. USA soldiers in a permanent occupation or Oil resources in the hands of the Iranians and terrorists on a rampage.

Yes in hindsight we should have reconnoitered in force from Afghanistan into Iran.

I hope we are still smart enough to have an active destabilization program in Iran.... Thank You Jimmy Carter for giving us modern Iran.

See how it's supposed to be done, conservative article-writers? The problem with the first article was that it contained too many "facts". Facts are bad, they can be used against you by evil liberal scientists. Avoid facts in your argument. In fact, avoid complete sentences alltogether. This makes it hard for anyone to understand what the hell you're saying, and if they can't understand you they can't prove you wrong.

[odduc]

We don't give a shit about the Iraqi's dying.

Nope, not a bit. I do, however, care about our soldiers dying in a foreign country while protecting foreign interests.

[richw]

I choose to write in dialog format rather then prose. I have imagined that these talking points and sound bites are more effective communicators then rambling paragraphs.

I understand that educated fools often hide poor conceptualization behind rhetoric in a well constructed paragraph. I think this was caused by English Lit professors telling you to write four pages on a topic they or their students neither understood or cared about.

I suggest that we send each other missives by courier where our ideas could also be judged by the quality of our hand writing.

I feel honored that you decided to take out the liberals greatest weapon and attack the author and his communicating style rather then provide repartee

adieu

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by richw
I choose to write in dialog format rather then prose. I have imagined that these talking points and sound bites are more effective communicators then rambling paragraphs.

I understand that educated fools often hide poor conceptualization behind rhetoric in a well constructed paragraph. I think this was caused by English Lit professors telling you to write four pages on a topic they or their students neither understood or cared about.

Bullshit. It's nothing to do with education. People who argue well write in paragraphs with argument setup and context because if you don't, nobody understands a goddamn thing you're saying.

HONCLFIBR: The article's premise is wrong. Here is why (states facts).

RICHW: Bippidy Boppidy Boo. IRAQ. WAR. Liiibeerrallls!

HONCLFIBR: You make no sense.

RICHW: Typical liberal, bash the messenger instead of the message!

[Doc]

"




Can't we all just get along?

I Love you guys!!

[TheIglu]

I declare Big D the winner of that rumble in the i-jungle!

[OreoGitorio]

Originally posted by TheIglu
I declare Big D the winner of that rumble in the i-jungle!

I LOVE LAMP!

[richw]

We have been in Iraq 3 1/2 years

So Cali highways have killed 14000 Americans... Well its California so say 12000 Americans and 2000 Mexicans.

The above statement is simply to clarify the calculations comparing USA troop deaths with California highway deaths. That during the same period approximately 4.6 times as many Americans died on the highways of California as our troops died in Iraq.

The next comment was intended to be a humorous remark about the state of failed immigration policy.

I do not have an opinion on the relevance just clarifying the mathematical relationship.

War Sucks

Iraq War Sucks

These to remarks are intended to point out that there are no good wars. That it will never be fun and it will always be painful and costly in blood and treasure. I will interject that this does not mean that they should be avoided only entered into with the expectation of that loss.

But supposedly we have lost near 3000 there, there are estimated by the libs 650000 dead Iraqis.

This ratio is about 200 to one.

This is a relevant fact I heard on the news last week on somewhat of an FYI basis. I do not know if this estimate is at all accurate but you would think that the Iraqis themselves would start to believe that what they are currently doing must stop soon.


Pull back guard the boarder with Syria and Iran and mostly guard their oil infrastructure.

I do not believe that it is important for USA interest to attempt to secure neighborhoods any longer. We have an interest in Iraqi oil. We also have a great interest in containing terrorism and an ambitious Iran. I think both of these would be best served by establishing bases near the oil fields and facilities that also conveniently are near the Iranian border. The Syrian border must also be controlled because the Iranians and Syrians themselves can also cross there.



I hate to tell you this there are situations that do not have a happy ending. You have the Hobson's choice of the lesser of 2 evils. USA soldiers in a permanent occupation or Oil resources in the hands of the Iranians and terrorists on a rampage.

The Hobson's choice here is a result that we have removed the Iraqi government. If we leave now the Iranians or Shiite factions will take over and we will have more radical Muslim Terrorists. The Jihad will proclaim their victory and be spurred on to greater attacks through out the world including the USA.

Yes in hindsight we should have reconnoitered in force from Afghanistan into Iran.

It is my opinion that Iran is looming as a bigger threat to world peace and the USA then Saddam ever was. We could have brought a very large force into Afghanistan to help rid the Taliban and then could have struck across into Iran. I allude to what I believe was a quote from Patton in Sicily when they asked what he was doing and he said he was
"reconnoitering in force" when in reality his entire army had pushed through.


I hope we are still smart enough to have an active destabilization program in Iran.... Thank You Jimmy Carter for giving us modern Iran.

I am a little hazy but I do believe that 1st Ford then definitely Carter stopped our CIA from meddling in the internal politics of small countries. The when the Shah of Iran would have needed propping up with our troops Jimmy Carter let him fall and the Ayatollah take over. This created fundamentalist Islam in Iran we are force to deal with today. Frankly I fear this is the path that a democratic controlled government will take. It will lay the foundations for a world wide Jihad where millions will die on both sides.

[Honclfibr]

See, now I understand what you're saying. The next step is to argue one point at a time, preferrably something that has to do with the original thread (in this case: Is the Iraq war costly in terms of American lives and money?)

[highsider]

Originally posted by Honclfibr
See, now I understand what you're saying. The next step is to argue one point at a time, preferrably something that has to do with the original thread (in this case: Is the Iraq war costly in terms of American lives and money?)

Darrell, stop making sense. Stupid fucking liberal.

[Aaron]

Pull out of California.

[zombie]

Originally posted by richw


But supposedly we have lost near 3000 there, there are estimated by the libs 650000 dead Iraqis.

.

Wrong the study by John hopkins university was done by a former state department employee and all his previous studies have been used by this adminstration to bolster their various arguments.
But once you disagree with them they immediately try and discredit the author by branding him an enemy of the american people, by the way the studies author was a registered republican.
So according to RichW if you are not a republican therefore you must hate america and hate the troops and it's all hate hate hate.

So now I head to the polling booth and I'm voting aaron molloy for state senator (R) because his opponent will do anything to grab a senate seat and ran a very miserable campaign of personal attacks.
Beech (R) for Senate as ted has been in office to long.
Delahunt(D) for congress as I want to see this adminstration held accountable for some of it's actions
Mihos(I) for governor for as much as a crazy man as he is the other two would collectively give an aspirin a headache.
And I'm voting no on 1 as my friend asked me too and he owns a liquor store (easily influenced there)
have a great day everone and go out and vote as it's our most important civic duty that we can perform as citizens of this great country

[richw]

One week of every year is designated National Brotherhood Week. This is just one of many such weeks honoring various worthy causes. One of my favorites is National Make-fun-of-the-handicapped Week which Frank Fontaine and Jerry Lewis are in charge of as you know. During National Brotherhood Week various special events are arranged to drive home the message of brotherhood. This year, for example, on the first day of the week Malcolm X was killed which gives you an idea of how effective the whole thing is. I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that. Here's a song about National Brotherhood Week.

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!



I am much to tired to hate but I do think that terrorists should strive for their ultimate achievement as fertilizer