[stoinkythepig]

Originally posted by capt1014

My .02$

Oh and PS, if it illegal to shoot people what if we shoot illegals?
Are they people or illegals?
They could be illegal aliens, in that case they are not of this country or world and are infesting or country and world, so would shootings be in defense of the US or world?

I don't know, shooting seems kinda harsh. What if we just put them in camps, exploit the ones that can work, and then maybe starve the rest to death. If that takes too long, we could just build some gas chambers to speed things up, some ovens to cremate the corpses, and...

C'mon, these are human beings we are talking about here. No need to be so hateful. The majority are here because their own governments have failed them and they are desperate. A lot of our ancestors came to the US for similar reasons back when the US had more open immigration laws. Mine came from Russia (I think), on my dad's side, just two generations ago.

It's amazing to me how many so-called Christians are so eager to build walls and deport these needy people. Do you think Jesus would have done that? Thus far, they seem to be acclimating in a generation or two, why would that suddenly change?

[Rick Lee]

It's one thing for them to acclimate to an environment...It's another thing to expect an established environment to acclimate to them.

[Stoneman]

How many times can Ben say 'conservative' in one post?

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by stoinkythepig
...A lot of our ancestors came to the US for similar reasons back when the US had more open immigration laws.

More open, sure. But mine still came here LEGALLY and learned the language of the time of the land...

[Stoneman]

Originally posted by capt1014
NO THEY DIDN"T, they blasted their ways into the minds and lives of people and if they didn't accept them then they were destroyed.

And this is what we should let happen to us, now?

[benVFR]

Originally posted by Stoneman
How many times can Ben say 'conservative' in one post?

3 is too many?

I'm just waiting for someone to start yelling "Wake up White People!"

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by daviid
look at these photos from the illegal marches






If they want to become a US Citizen so badly, why the FUCK are they holding mexican flags. if your so damn proud of mexico why dont you go back there.

I *heart* irony. I bet none of these people (see below) were ever asked "why the FUCK are they holding Irish / Italian flags". Ah, the privlegde of being white.

[daviid]

Originally posted by chr|s sedition
I *heart* irony. I bet none of these people (see below) were ever asked "why the FUCK are they holding Irish / Italian flags". Ah, the privlegde of being white.

my grandparents came from italy, you will never see me raise an italian flag. nor my parents, and ive never seen any of my grandparents raise an italian flag either.

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by daviid
my grandparents came from italy, you will never see me raise an italian flag. nor my parents, and ive never seen any of my grandparents raise an italian flag either.

The plane may have gone over your head.

The point was not what acts you, or your family, have or have not taken. It was to illuminate the double standard by which many people perseverate over "mexicans" sporting their gang colors, but fail to ever even mention the same issue when the same acts are done by WHITE people.

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by capt1014
Beside aren't the people the government so in the scope of the whole thing the people who want this SPANISH RENDTION of the nation anthem are in fact a legitimate faction of the government so it turn you might be able to make to correlation between people who want this rendition of the anthem and the government being one in the same.

I'm not even going to entertain an argument with logic stretched *that* thin.

Question in rebut, why is the Anthem being converted into Spanish anyway? So people who don't understand English can understand the anthem better, hmmm seems like an accommodation to me, who about you? And who are advocating the change? People in the US? Spanish speaking people? People who are out there communicating their beliefs that it should be easier for people to understand it? This is what is called complaining, bitching whatever you want to call it.

The national anthem has been bastardized in *so many ways* over the years, from Hendrix, to Roaseanne Barr, to countless punk bands. Very few have complained. Yet, when "mexicans" do it, all hell breaks lose. IMHO, the issue is *mostlly* just another smokescreen for people to vent underlying racism.

[OreoGitorio]

First of all, Chris, i'm sure you can find PLENTY of people who would criticize Hendrix, Rosanne and countless punk bands for their renditions of the Nat'l Anthem... I for one would love to punch Rosanne in the ovaries for making my ears bleed... but as American citizens, I believe the National Anthem belongs to us and I believe we can pretty much do with it what we please, within reason... it's like messin up something that belongs to you. Wreck your own bike, oh well, that sucks... wreck your friends bike... uh oh, that spells trouble... So you can fuck w/ your own National Anthem & skrew it up (again, w/in reason) and although you'll get some flack from other people, whatever, as an American Citizen it's your right to free speech... But you can't fuck with other people's property & not expect to get a lot of people, most of whom already dont like you, royally PISSED at you.

You don't see US citizens going over to Europe & adding fuckin raps to the various European national anthems & expecting all Americans to use that while over there, do you? No. You don't. Our National Anthem does not belong to illegal immigrants. It's not their play toy. Feel free to use it, go ahead & translate it to better understand it, but don't FUCK with it.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Race, it has to do with Nationality. I don't see any double standard about that, do you?

[capt1014]

Originally posted by chr|s sedition
I'm not even going to entertain an argument with logic stretched *that* thin.




The national anthem has been bastardized in *so many ways* over the years, from Hendrix, to Roaseanne Barr, to countless punk bands. Very few have complained. Yet, when "mexicans" do it, all hell breaks lose. IMHO, the issue is *mostlly* just another smokescreen for people to vent underlying racism.

Maybe your right about racism maybe your not maybe it is about fustration of people who don't believe the government is doing well.

The Anthem may have been bastardized in many ways, but how many times has it been changed to help people understand it?

[capt1014]

Originally posted by stoinkythepig
I don't know, shooting seems kinda harsh. What if we just put them in camps, exploit the ones that can work, and then maybe starve the rest to death. If that takes too long, we could just build some gas chambers to speed things up, some ovens to cremate the corpses, and...

C'mon, these are human beings we are talking about here. No need to be so hateful. The majority are here because their own governments have failed them and they are desperate. A lot of our ancestors came to the US for similar reasons back when the US had more open immigration laws. Mine came from Russia (I think), on my dad's side, just two generations ago.

It's amazing to me how many so-called Christians are so eager to build walls and deport these needy people. Do you think Jesus would have done that? Thus far, they seem to be acclimating in a generation or two, why would that suddenly change?

Oh great bring Jesus into this.

Yes Jesus and God, would have accepted everyone with open arms there is no doubt it,

but it doesn't mean I have to!

Why did thier governments fail them, because of greedy dictators? Econmonic failure?

Why should the american public take on the responsibility of all of the illegals?

Oh in case you can read between the line.
I don't advocate the shooting anyone, illegal or not.

[zombie]

Originally posted by daviid
my grandparents came from italy, you will never see me raise an italian flag. nor my parents, and ive never seen any of my grandparents raise an italian flag either.

but you were spotted raising an italian sub to your mouth so your busted

[capt1014]

And to the posts about raising or hold flags that are not the American flag, go ahead raise or hold any flag you want, I would raise a Scottish flag, but never will I raise a flag higher than the Stars and Stripes!

[beet]

& its not black white its $.

[capt1014]

Just one more question for anyone who can or wants to answer it,

Why should I have to tolerate changing the National Anthem?

[beet]

Cause it's not the Anthem its the Anthem.
The Anthem,is the fact that we can say as we want.

[stoinkythepig]

Originally posted by capt1014
Just one more question for anyone who can or wants to answer it,

Why should I have to tolerate changing the National Anthem?

Free Speech

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by capt1014
Just one more question for anyone who can or wants to answer it,

Why should I have to tolerate changing the National Anthem?

Simple. Becuase this is not Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea, or Burma. Freedom of speach is essentially what seperates the USA from dictatorships. It is what is essentially American, and a basic tenet of justice and equality. You should tolerate (not to be confused with being 'happy' about something. One 'tolerates' a novicaine shot at the dentist, but it is not something one is 'happy' about) becuase if American citizens (or the government) start limiting freedom of speach, then something *much* more fundamental to American culture and government has been compromised than a spanish version of the national anthem.

[stoinkythepig]

Originally posted by capt1014
Oh great bring Jesus into this.

Yes Jesus and God, would have accepted everyone with open arms there is no doubt it,

but it doesn't mean I have to!

Why did thier governments fail them, because of greedy dictators? Econmonic failure?

Why should the american public take on the responsibility of all of the illegals?

Oh in case you can read between the line.
I don't advocate the shooting anyone, illegal or not.

I have no idea if you consider yourself a Christian or not. My point was not directed at anyone on this forum, since I donlt really know anyone here THAT well.

Mexico and other Latin American countries have failed their people by not "joining" the global economy. Other countries have realized that investors worldwide require open and clear accounting practices, so to speak, and these countries continue to resist that so there is not much investment there. Corruption is a key problem. Two funds I invest in reward Latin American governemnets and companies for playing buy the rules. Their annual reports make for some interesting reading (and they have pretty nice returns too).

We don't need to take responsibility for illegals. The fact is, they seem to take care of themselves, for the most part. Most tend to lie low and go about making some money by quietly doing work many Americans won't do. It's been this way for decades, we just don't see it much up here in New England. This is probably why our own government has done little to stop the immigration. If we continue to do nothing differently, the illegal immigration will continue as it has all along without ever overtly affecting the likes of you and I and we wonlt have to spend billions of dollars trying to stop it. It's only recently become a "problem" because we are told it's a problem, oddly enough by folks that for the most part call themselves Christians. A real Christian would be far more compassionate and push for open immigartion laws regardless of any hardship it may cause them.

My reply to your tongue-in-cheek shooting statement was also tongue -in-cheek. I don't really advocate gas chambers either.

[richw]

I am a Euro-American the only sub group that the PC crowd can run down.

You should fear a dilution of the USA society. When it was difficult to come here there was a form of natural selection. Mostly aggressive and capable people got up and made the journey... regardless of the point of origin.

Many other countries including Mexico have had more time to create wealth and a great society (johnson s*cks) . Something is wrong in all those places and they are bringing it here for your children to deal with.

So PLEASE rail and rant on anything that will alter the American Character.

Don't listen to the fringe Aholes and their anecdotal exceptions that sound convincing. We are the best. I will hold up our Christian backed democratic republic as the pinnacle of the human condition to date.

There are many people better then me and I applaud them. Only a pissant wants to change the rules so they look better

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by OreoGitorio
i'm sure you can find PLENTY of people who would criticize Hendrix, Rosanne and countless punk bands for their renditions of the Nat'l Anthem...but as American citizens, I believe the National Anthem belongs to us and I believe we can pretty much do with it what we please, within reason... it's like messin up something that belongs to you. Wreck your own bike, oh well, that sucks... wreck your friends bike... uh oh, that spells trouble... So you can fuck w/ your own National Anthem & skrew it up (again, w/in reason) and although you'll get some flack from other people, whatever, as an American Citizen it's your right to free speech... But you can't fuck with other people's property & not expect to get a lot of people, most of whom already dont like you, royally PISSED at you.

(1) This is the best argument for your "side " I have seen in this thread. I do not disagree with anything you said above, but I do think the public reaction to this event is totally short sighted [seem (2) below]. I am well aware that, in essence, a number of other people have made this argument already. However, your's has one distinguishing characteristic; it has been parsed of racist bullshit lie "lazy mexicans", etc. As I stated elsewhere, this entire backlash is often nothing more than another reason to allow some people's racism and xenophobia to bubble over. It is also fraught with a double standard, as a far smaller group of people flip out when white people do the same things that these "mexicans" are doing.

(2) Reactionary social protest to sound-bite images of "compromised" nationalism fails to grasp much larger, and much more nefarious, imjustices to our country. By this, I mean everytime somone burns a flag, speaks Spanish in a public place, wants 'under God' removed from the Pledge of Alligence, etc, people flip out. I'm sorry, but *allowing* someone to burn a flag is what makes this America, and not North Korea. Moreover, the actual *act* of burning a flag or spinging the national anthem in Spanish is not, nor will it ever, compromise the basic elements of American freedom, cultre, and government (one could argue that such acts actully *support* institutions of free speach and the such). The problem is that these same people who flip out when they see a flag burning, hear Spanish, etc totally fail to be even remotlly outraged when substantive things happen which do *real* injustice to the foundations of freedom, the Constituion, and America as we know it. Oddly enough, the source of these "real" problems is often Congress and our elected officals.

You don't see US citizens going over to Europe & adding fuckin raps to the various European national anthems & expecting all Americans to use that while over there, do you? [/b]

(1) The inference from this statements is that non-US citizens who are currentlly in the US are "expecting" all other non-citizens "to use" this new spanish anthem "while they are over here". If this is the infernce you were trying to make, please cite to where anyone has actually advanced such a position. Otherwise, setting up your own straw-man to knock down is not going to get you very far in the debate club. As for US citizen's going over to Europe...I do not follow European news enough to know if such acts have or have not been done. Thus, I am without knowledge to be able to comment on it. However, I have traveled through Europe enough to know that even if such acts *did happen*, European culture would probablly brush it off and focus issues which are really effecting their ability to govern.
[/b][/quote]

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Race, it has to do with Nationality. I don't see any double standard about that, do you? [/b]

Independent of comments like "lazy mexicans", there is no double standard and it *is* about Nationality. However, it seems as if many people have trouble seperating the two.

[chr|s sedition]

Originally posted by stoinkythepig
I have no idea if you consider yourself a Christian or not. My point was not directed at anyone on this forum, since I donlt really know anyone here THAT well.

Mexico and other Latin American countries have failed their people by not "joining" the global economy. Other countries have realized that investors worldwide require open and clear accounting practices, so to speak, and these countries continue to resist that so there is not much investment there. Corruption is a key problem. Two funds I invest in reward Latin American governemnets and companies for playing buy the rules. Their annual reports make for some interesting reading (and they have pretty nice returns too).

We don't need to take responsibility for illegals. The fact is, they seem to take care of themselves, for the most part. Most tend to lie low and go about making some money by quietly doing work many Americans won't do. It's been this way for decades, we just don't see it much up here in New England. This is probably why our own government has done little to stop the immigration. If we continue to do nothing differently, the illegal immigration will continue as it has all along without ever overtly affecting the likes of you and I and we wonlt have to spend billions of dollars trying to stop it. It's only recently become a "problem" because we are told it's a problem, oddly enough by folks that for the most part call themselves Christians. A real Christian would be far more compassionate and push for open immigartion laws regardless of any hardship it may cause them.

My reply to your tongue-in-cheek shooting statement was also tongue -in-cheek. I don't really advocate gas chambers either.

I am an atheist, however, I am *totally*

[capt1014]

Originally posted by stoinkythepig
Mexico and other Latin American countries have failed their people by not "joining" the global economy.


My reply to your tongue-in-cheek shooting statement was also tongue -in-cheek. I don't really advocate gas chambers either.

Cool on the tongue and cheek thing.

As you say that Mexico and other Latin American countries have not joined the global economy, then why do American based companies more some of there resources to Mexicoand other Latin American countries, it is not just the cut in labor costs.