[benVFR]

My point was whether lots of people have guns illegally or legally it doesn't seem to matter.

Some of the states with the least gun restriction have the worst violent crime as well.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by joeswamp

You argued that if we say it's the tool and not the person, we should ban everything, including hammers.

If you want to take it to that extreme, then I guess yes. Keep in mind whatever you ban we're just going to find something else to kill ourselves with. Hense the reason we need to fix the problem in the human if that's even possible.

Originally Posted by joeswamp

However if you argue "it's never the tool, it's always the person" you're implying that there's no need to ban anything.

Ok when a child is doing something wrong like throwing a plastic toy at another child you take the toy away from it because it's being misused. If a child is using the toy appropriately, there's no need to take it away.

The child needs to be disciplined, not the toy.

[Billy]

This debate will never end. It's been fun debating this all day but I'm throwing in the towel. All in all, the human race will cease to exist in another 100 years. We're going to kill ourselves off one way or another or we're going to make this planet unable to further support life.

[hessogood]

Originally Posted by joeswamp

Well that's not how I'd market my death ray either, I'd call it the "ultimate personal defense system" or maybe point out that now blind people can go hunting too, something like that.

Also, I'm pretty sure that back in the 50's people were looking at nuclear devices for all kinds of peaceful purposes, like digging mines, stuff like that.

I think the line needs to be drawn at not the ostensible "purpose" of device, but rather its potential for mass killing.

no more knives, chain saws, bow and arrows, cars, lengths of pipe, large sticks, rocks, pencils.....yeah you're being realistic.

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by Adrenalinechic

not true. the teacher that banned him from class referred him to counselling and attempted to council him herself; however, you cannot force a person to seek help. she did what she could within her limitations. if she went to the police and said "this kid has problems, yada yada" they wouldnt be able to do anything b/c no crime had been committed. i had a stalker a few years ago and no lawful action could be taken because he never physically harmed me. all i could do was change my email, block him from all forms of communication, make sure my blinds were closed, and walk with other people. i couldnt even go to class b/c that psycho waited for me IN the classroom.

what they DID fail to do was successfully follow up on the teacher's reports.

hindsight is 20/20

if that was the only indication I would agree but he there is a pattern here...i suspect when his medical records are released there will be more evidence....

imo they patterns where there but ignored as not to offend or discriminate against him....this is a PC world...

I'm not sure what they could have done differnetly even if they did follow up on all of those reports other then kick him off campus...that may have saved the students in this incident but I suspect he would have done this someplace else..

it's pretty scary...there is a lot of gray area...

[benVFR]

Hey BigRed you need to include links to your various pundits.. they probably wouldn't want you doing the cut-and-paste job with their work.

And without a link we can't tell where you're getting this stuff.

[joeswamp]

Originally Posted by hessogood

no more knives, chain saws, bow and arrows, cars, lengths of pipe, large sticks, rocks, pencils.....yeah you're being realistic.

Except that nobody commits mass murder with those items, because it's too difficult. Can you imagine a post office massacre conducted with a bow and arrow?

Let's face it: If you want to go on a mass murder spree today and you don't want to use a gun, you have to be pretty darned creative. Al Qaeda used jetliners and suicide bombers. Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer (who would've thought that would work?). Both of these options are now kinda off the table, because the government has made it much more difficult to get these things.

But guns and ammo are always easy to get and very effective, so that's what most of these crazy guys use.

[Kham]

Originally Posted by hessogood

no more knives, chain saws, bow and arrows, cars, lengths of pipe, large sticks, rocks, pencils.....yeah you're being realistic.

i think he already made the point which is which weapons to ban? these stuff can be home made if there was no one selling which brings a question those bad dudes in middle east can't get a nuke because they can't make them and they can't buy them.

[benVFR]

Yes but guns can be homemade.

[Josephd14]

Originally Posted by Adrenalinechic

i had a stalker a few years ago and no lawful action could be taken because he never physically harmed me.

Yea i'm sorry about that whole thing...

[TheIglu]

There are so many places for help these days it's rediculous. The chances were there, he was on a dead end road that was going to end badly, one way or the other.

There are FUCKED up people. I've known kids like this. We all have (unless you are completely oblivious). When they end up in jail for murder, or diddling some kid or whatever, you think "Yeah, they were fucked in the head. ".

You can't 'fix' everybody. Some people are just not able to live in society. Speculate all you want about the "if's" and "they shoulda" but I'll be comfortable in knowing that in our country of 300 million people, I will NOT be surprised when ONE is fucked up every month or two and does something like this. Nor will I give up any of my personal freedoms for it.

What can I say, we were due.

[Josephd14]

A very Sad, harsh truth...

[Josephd14]

Originally Posted by joeswamp

Except that nobody commits mass murder with those items, because it's too difficult. Can you imagine a post office massacre conducted with a bow and arrow?

Let's face it: If you want to go on a mass murder spree today and you don't want to use a gun, you have to be pretty darned creative. Al Qaeda used jetliners and suicide bombers. Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer (who would've thought that would work?). Both of these options are now kinda off the table, because the government has made it much more difficult to get these things.

But guns and ammo are always easy to get and very effective, so that's what most of these crazy guys use.

Really.... I drive around with 11,000 gallons of petro at a time every day with a truck that wieghs over 100,000 Lbs , If i was a "Nut" how many people do you think I could take out with that much fuel.. And they just started doing back ground checks in the last year for Hazmat Endorsment.. even then that would not have stopped someone with a clean police record, that just looses his mind.. bet 10,000 gallons of Gas could take out alot more then 30+ people.. And gasoline is not even part of your Constitutional Rights..

[neuthunder]

not to be a dick but...... from the NBC article posted in the other VA thread...
Some of the pictures show him smiling. Some depict him brandishing two weapons at a time, one in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves, a black T-shirt, a backpack and a backwards, black baseball cap. Another photo shows him swinging a hammer two-fisted

[MissTwisties]

Originally Posted by hessogood

Of course all the signs were there now that we're using hindsight. The event was not preventable. Look around you, anyone you see could stand up at any second and start firing. Any of the thousands and thousands of people you drive or walk by everyday could start shooting at anytime. And then after the fact we'll hear everyone say, 'the signs were all there'.

Couldn't agree more with that statement.

[MissTwisties]

Originally Posted by neuthunder

not to be a dick but...... from the NBC article posted in the other VA thread...
Some of the pictures show him smiling. Some depict him brandishing two weapons at a time, one in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves, a black T-shirt, a backpack and a backwards, black baseball cap. Another photo shows him swinging a hammer two-fisted

link?

There is so much gray area with this subject...I do agree that guns don't pull the trigger by themselves. And it's true you can't "fix" every fucked up human. Even a person who act normal on most daily basis could hide very disturbing things deep inside, and lash out without a warning. Take for exemple a father, who is successful in life, have a loving wife, beautiful kids, etc. and then boom, someday he commits an awful crime and go shoot his own family. What will neighbros say? "OMG, he was such a gentleman, they always looked so happy, yada yada yada"....the truth is....you never know who will be the next psycho, when it will happen, and you cannot stereotype.

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by benVFR

Hey BigRed you need to include links to your various pundits.. they probably wouldn't want you doing the cut-and-paste job with their work.

And without a link we can't tell where you're getting this stuff.

for this article or was that an attempt at humor? Michael Graham's Blog

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

There are so many places for help these days it's rediculous. The chances were there, he was on a dead end road that was going to end badly, one way or the other.

There are FUCKED up people. I've known kids like this. We all have (unless you are completely oblivious). When they end up in jail for murder, or diddling some kid or whatever, you think "Yeah, they were fucked in the head. ".

You can't 'fix' everybody. Some people are just not able to live in society. Speculate all you want about the "if's" and "they shoulda" but I'll be comfortable in knowing that in our country of 300 million people, I will NOT be surprised when ONE is fucked up every month or two and does something like this. Nor will I give up any of my personal freedoms for it.

What can I say, we were due.

best post in this thread

[l3uddha]

Originally Posted by MissTwisties

link?

Gunman in massacre contacted NBC News - Massacre at Virginia Tech - MSNBC.com

watch the video too. it's a hoot....

[MissTwisties]

Originally Posted by l3uddha

Gunman in massacre contacted NBC News - Massacre at Virginia Tech - MSNBC.com

watch the video too. it's a hoot....

Yeah I just saw it in the other thread...what a fucknut he was eh? Jesus Christ...well we'll see if you'll be sitting next to him in heaven you sick fuck.

[Doc]

frickin sicko....

[joeswamp]

Originally Posted by neuthunder

not to be a dick but...... from the NBC article posted in the other VA thread...
Some of the pictures show him smiling. Some depict him brandishing two weapons at a time, one in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves, a black T-shirt, a backpack and a backwards, black baseball cap. Another photo shows him swinging a hammer two-fisted

I saw that as well. Maybe that was his backup in case he ran out of ammo? I saw part of that video, gotta say I've never seen anyone who was so clearly insane.

[joeswamp]

Originally Posted by josephd14

Really.... I drive around with 11,000 gallons of petro at a time every day with a truck that wieghs over 100,000 Lbs , If i was a "Nut" how many people do you think I could take out with that much fuel.. And they just started doing back ground checks in the last year for Hazmat Endorsment.. even then that would not have stopped someone with a clean police record, that just looses his mind.. bet 10,000 gallons of Gas could take out alot more then 30+ people.. And gasoline is not even part of your Constitutional Rights..

Yep, and if/when somebody commits a massacre with a truck like yours you can bet that it will be a lot harder to get your job. But again... it's much, much easier to get a semiautomatic weapon in this country than it is to get a 100000 lb truck filled with gasoline. (A lot cheaper too).

[Stoneman]

Originally Posted by benVFR

Some of the states with the least gun restriction have the worst violent crime as well.

And where's YOUR citing, Ben? For every link you find stating this, I can find one saying just the opposite. One case in point comes to mind right quick...New Hampshire. Our violent crime rate ain't exactly skyrocketting...

Here's a link that briefly explains why more people carrying guns could interupt what could otherwise be a disaster on an unknown scale. And wouldn't ya know it, in New Hampshire...

The only one injured? The shooter...

[Stoneman]

Yip, sure do! VA Tech doesn't allow 'em on campus...

I was waiting for the control knobs to jump on this shit. Most anyone that's blaming this terrible tragedy on (lack of) gun control (banning) knows very little about guns I'd bet...

Shame we gotta hinder the true tragedy here...