[TheIglu]

I'm illustrating how a population can tolerate behaviour by powerful religious figures.

[Degsy]

Originally Posted by Stoneman

Destroying holy sites is nothing new. Hell, they're doing it to their own sites now amongst themselves! The English did it to the colonists, the north & south did it to each other, 'we' did it in Cuba, the Germans did it all across Europe - twice. I think it's a great idea...

Oh yeah, here we go. I was waiting for you to play the "we run the world' card.



Er...hang on, let me re-read your post.


Ahem, er, ok, carry on. As you were.

[Stoneman]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

I'm illustrating how a population can tolerate behaviour by powerful religious figures.

Perhaps until they kill 3000 innocent people?

[Stoneman]

Originally Posted by Degsy

Oh yeah, here we go. I was waiting for you to play the "we run the world' card.



Er...hang on, let me re-read your post.


Ahem, er, ok, carry on. As you were.

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by Stoneman

Perhaps until they kill 3000 innocent people?

logic has no place in this thread

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by Stoneman

Perhaps until they kill 3000 innocent people?

Not until then, but even beyond it. If they think we're not innocent (remember, we're the devil's children), it doesn't phase them.

People like OBL have tons of sway in a population of poor uneducated people who have nothing to look forward to other than the afterlife.

He needs to be taken out. That's just all there is to it. We TOOK OVER another country for less.

Nobody is saying take over Pakistan. Just politely inform them that we are going to go in, do a job, and get out since they obviously can not.

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

Not until then, but even beyond it. If they think we're not innocent (remember, we're the devil's children), it doesn't phase them.

People like OBL have tons of sway in a population of poor uneducated people who have nothing to look forward to other than the afterlife.

He needs to be taken out. That's just all there is to it. We TOOK OVER another country for less.

Nobody is saying take over Pakistan. Just politely inform them that we are going to go in, do a job, and get out since they obviously can not.

**tap tap** is this thing on?

what about the muslims in THIS country hiding terrorists in THIS country?

[bigred875]

then why the is osama bin laden still an upstanding member of their chruch, still recognized as a cleric or whatever he is....why don't they give him up?

why dont the muslims in this country give up the terrorists in THIS country?

I completely understand that the muslims in the 3rd world counties get brainwashed. But what about the other millions in this country....England..

Why aren't they joining together to fix the problem with their religion? You know all the ones that tell us they do not agree with the "radicals".

ps - a moderate muslim only wants all jews dead...true story

[Honclfibr]

Wait, so the argument here is that all muslims in this country have intimate knowledge of terrorism by virtue of being muslim?

Huh, I wonder why I didn't do more to stop Timothy McVeigh. I mean, we're both christians, he *must* have told me about his plans...

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by Honclfibr

Wait, so the argument here is that all muslims in this country have intimate knowledge of terrorism by virtue of being muslim?

Huh, I wonder why I didn't do more to stop Timothy McVeigh. I mean, we're both christians, he *must* have told me about his plans...

no, but some certainly do....they live among them and turn a blind eye...they let them pray in their moques...as i said before Osama Bin Laden is still an upstanding member of their church. How can you not acknowledge my point.

It's pretty basic...the muslims in this country...and the rest of the world...are doing NOTHING to stop the islamic extremeists when the problem is theirs..

The christians clean up their messes...why can't they?

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by bigred875

**tap tap** is this thing on?

what about the muslims in THIS country hiding terrorists in THIS country?

Yeah, what about them? I really don't see what you are trying to say. We're not the only ones that have terrorists in our country. EVERY country has religious wackos that are more concerned with their faith than the good of their own country. If you think the US is free from the side effects of extreme religious beliefs then you may want to take a trip to Utah.

You are proving my point exactly. Religious effects aren't blocked by international borders. Just because he is in Pakistan doesn't mean he isn't able to launch more attacks.


So yeah, lets scoff at Obama for doing what should have been done 6 years ago. HOW COULD HE BE SO BOLD????!!!!

Perhaps he should approach the UN for permission, see that they won't grant it, and then do it on his own with limited international support and condemnation from the rest?

[bigred875]

ok i'll try to break it down Barney style...

most muslims say they do not agree with the radical extremeists they say that the extremists are distorting the Koran and that the radicals are the a small faction of the Islamic community and that Islam is a religion of peace...

are you with me?

ok...there are around 1.2 billion muslims on this planet.

islamic extremeist terrorism is a world wide problem....this is not debateable

Osama Bin Laden is the most wanted terrorist on the planet.

Osama Bin Laden is still an upstanding member of the Islamic church.



still with me? great.... why is it that whenever you hear from a supposed moderate or peaceful muslim it is typically to complain about discriminations or "atrocities" done against peopel of their faith. Why won't they mobilize their people and call the so-called radicals out and turn some of them in?

CAIR has known terrorists on the payroll and are trying to destroy our constitution.

CAIR statements on the events of September 11

read the bullshit "condemnations"...they find a handful of letters condemming the viloence but asking us not to jump to conclusions. Then when they find out that the terrorist are muslims you don't hear from them other then them saying...we condone that...they are not muslims...no cooperation...no help...nothing...thats BULLSHIT!

enough already...and enough comparing them to any other religious wacko in the world...no body else is killing people like the islamic extremeists are...certain not anyone from this country nor it's governemt

...and if you think obama is going to do anything you are sorely mistaken...seems he has a case of lie-a-betes just like the reast of them.... he plays to the crowd he is in front of. Why should we have to go get them...if "they" feels so bad about everything then why don't they give him to us? or hell....i'd settle for kicking him out of the church?

[TheIglu]

Because they CAN'T give them to us. They have no power over their people as is 100% apparent by the declaration of state of emergency earlier this week.

There is far more room for interpretation in their religion than Christianity (and that's saying a lot). Some see it as an "us vs. them" and start a religious war. Others don't see it quite that way but also think that their religion is the right one and it should take over the world. Ya know, like Christianity did in the first through fifth crusades. People put into power committing atrocities under a blanket of religious righteousness.

Btw, Muslims and Christians have been in a war pretty much forever over the holy land and it will never end until one is eradicated. I'm willing to bet it's pretty hard to live as a Muslim and support Christian benefiting world transitions. Kinda like the "Don't Snitch" scene going on in inner cities. People would rather deal with the shit and feel empowered to do something than have everything go on as usual.

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by bigred875

...and if you think BUSH is going to do anything you are sorely mistaken.

Yeah, you are god damn right. He hasn't done anything to improve the situation with any of our Muslim neighbors and has put us in a pickle of a military debacle.

I'd be happy as a pig in shit with our next president if they didn't do a god damn thing. Cause it's better than this.

[TheIglu]

So let me ask this, what do you think we should do?

Lot of debate on how things were handled, a lot of speculation on what we think people will do in the future, but we haven't come up with a solution. I think OBL is still #1 priority, then distancing ourselves from the Muslim international community which includes financial and natural resources.

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

Because they CAN'T give them to us. They have no power over their people as is 100% apparent by the declaration of state of emergency earlier this week.

state of emergency? no idea what you are talking about link?

Ya know, like Christianity did in the first through fifth crusades. People put into power committing atrocities under a blanket of religious righteousness.

and the christians fixed the problem....the muslims are not...my head is starting to hurt lol

Btw, Muslims and Christians have been in a war pretty much forever over the holy land and it will never end until one is eradicated.

thats bullshit, the christians have not been at war with anyone for a very long time.

I'm willing to bet it's pretty hard to live as a Muslim and support Christian benefiting world transitions.

thats crap too... the world is getting smaller and everyone needs to play nice..including the muslims..they are the ones killing people in the name of allah...nobody else.... i cant beleive you are defending this...

Kinda like the "Don't Snitch" scene going on in inner cities.

thats a bullshit excuse too...you are on a roll.. in a small urban neighboorhood this reason holds water...but not when it comes to the entire muslim population of the planet...the radicals are supposed to be a small faction.....remember?

People would rather deal with the shit and feel empowered to do something than have everything go on as usual.

contradictory statement?

He hasn't done anything to improve the situation with any of our Muslim neighbors and has put us in a pickle of a military debacle.

more bullshit...he's done a lot...take your iraq blinders off and you'll see. W's made a lot of mistakes....but not everytime

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

So let me ask this, what do you think we should do?

Lot of debate on how things were handled, a lot of speculation on what we think people will do in the future, but we haven't come up with a solution. I think OBL is still #1 priority, then distancing ourselves from the Muslim international community which includes financial and natural resources.

first and foremost i would like to see the Muslims of the world unit and legitimately help with get their wackos undercontrol..

if you are talking about Iraq thats a tough one...to simplify

1. we had proof of wmds
2. we attacked
3. we didnt find any
4. we stayed to clean up and spread democracy...
5. but we made our soldiers fight with one hand tied behind their backs
6. things got better
7. things got worse
8. thigns got worserer
9. dems go crazy demand withdrawl
10. W surgers in more troops
11. dems pissed
12. dems further pissed cause surge seems to be helping

so thats where we are now...i would like the next president to tell teh generals to knock off the political correctness campaign they are trying to run and do what ever it is that is necessary to clean up that area regardless of collateral damage......or.......gaurd the boarders and les them fight it out....or....cut and run and deal with the situation once it flares up again...this time with nukes.....

[TheIglu]

Christians not being at war now, yes. But then again, it did take nearly 1100 years. I guess we can expect the same from them?

[bigred875]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

Christians not being at war now, yes. But then again, it did take nearly 1100 years. I guess we can expect the same from them?

not when innocent people contiue to get killed....we must stop them

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by bigred875

first and foremost i would like to see the Muslims of the world unit and legitimately help with get their wackos undercontrol..

if you are talking about Iraq thats a tough one...to simplify

1. we had proof of wmds
2. we attacked
3. we didnt find any
4. we stayed to clean up and spread democracy...
5. but we made our soldiers fight with one hand tied behind their backs
6. things got better
7. things got worse
8. thigns got worserer
9. dems go crazy demand withdrawl
10. W surgers in more troops
11. dems pissed
12. dems further pissed cause surge seems to be helping

so thats where we are now...i would like the next president to tell teh generals to knock off the political correctness campaign they are trying to run and do what ever it is that is necessary to clean up that area regardless of collateral damage......or.......gaurd the boarders and les them fight it out....or....cut and run and deal with the situation once it flares up again...this time with nukes.....

Good call, nukes are the answer. Since after all, we are trying to protect the innocent people in this situation.

And how exactly are the hands being tied? I hear this term a lot, understand there are rules to war that any country that is trying to be respected as an international force needs to follow but don't know specifically what these things are.

At this point it's factional fighting. When people care more about being the big religious denomination on the block is when they care a lot less about the terrorists in the neighborhood.

The way I see it:

Let Israel fight their own wars

Don't get involved in sectarian violence, there is no way to win when it is a Muslim conflict

Once people in Iraq want to end the violence, they will end it. Until then, fuck them.

An ally does not harbor, intentionally or not, our #1 enemy and reason for invading two countries. (if 9/11 hadn't happened, we wouldn't of gone into Iraq, plain and simple) Pakistan is not an ally. We owe them nothing other than care to prevent civilian loss during our operations there.

BTW, in your list, you forgot to mention the steps about what the American public as a whole wants.

I'd like to see the Muslims unite too, but we can expect to see that the day after the people of Israel and Palestine get along happily, aka, never. A religious organization that large can not sustain itself as one entity, sects are bound to have conflict. As the Muslim religion grows, more and more people will have different takes on how the ideals and fundamentals are portrayed in real life and create different beliefs accordingly.

Oh, and add a lot of "that's bullshit" and "crap" and "excuse" and "open your eyes" statements to my post above randomly. I don't include them but figured since you were, I may as well.

Who said anything about defending Muslims? Rationalizing and explaining potential causes is not a form of defense. It is a form of understanding. Only when we can understand WHY they do what they do will we be able to start towards a solution.

Don't Snitch: Bullshit excuse? So then what exactly is happening? ARE they uniting against terrorists or is it that "muslims in THIS country hiding terrorists in THIS country?" Just wondering. Someone said that once and I'm trying to figure out WHY they are doing exactly that. If you can't pull relations between how small populations mirror larger populations then perhaps I'll pull more of your crap/bullshit/etc words out.

Lets look at sports. Countries come together who are normally enemies to unite against a greater enemy of both. Shall I spell this out for you? US = greater enemy?

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

Pakistan may declare state of emergency - Yahoo! News

Seems like they can't get shit done on their own.

BTW, here is the link. It was in this thread.

[ScottyGixxer]

Originally Posted by bigred875

I do not know if he is in pakistan, but i do know that the pakistani gov't is our ally and working with us...

Riiiiiiight...

There's only one reason Mushareff held up his hand like Arnold Horshack on Welcome Back Kotter when he got the chance:

To ally with the US provides a HUGE deterrent against the Indians. I think he's playing both sides of the fence, for if here WERE to take down UBL, he would get his ass overthrown/assasinated within hours. Heck, it's going in that direction anyway.

Then, of course, there are ass-clowns like Barack Obama who think they can stroll in, and Mushareff will do nothing but twiddle his thumbs or watch it on CNN... Yeah, ok, nevermind they have nukes right?