[TESTINGurTOMATO]

bergs you seem upset .... did you lose someone in the war?

I'm not being a douche, i really haven't been giving the issue much attention. I watched a couple of the debates saw which candidates I will not vote for and .....

Guys, I need a refresher course.

Does the us gov have any way to stop the president from becoming a monarchy?
From the read above the election was fixed????
The war was agreed upon by only the pres?????
mass murder?????
who was murdered??
who gets control of the country after we leave???? (I thought the idea was to allow them to self govern... does the USA or the Bush family get control after soldiers evac?)

If the pres makes a wrong descision doesn't congress have a way to overturn that descision?

If the pres has such little support then why haven't enough of the people spoken up loudly in order to get congress to do something?

Is there was a periodic review process as like any system?
....it's not like the descision to go to war was made and they pronounced the issue "dead" never to be seen, heard, or talked about again.

I must not understand the constitution so well or ....(not that I 100% agree with the current pres) the current congress has not seen any reason for impeachment.

I agree something needs to be done about our presence in the middle east .... there are muslim exteremist that have poked the US in the eye and we responded by going up to thier the door and shaking a stick at thier closed door while they sniped our stick holders from the next house

[bentbryan]

Originally Posted by slapshotman7

Yup, Bush is an ass.

Go watch, "Loose Change".

Have some respect for yourself and take off the shiny, tin-foil cone.

[TheIglu]

I'm gunna vote democrat just because they are democrats. Doesn't matter to me what they represent and how they will lead our country. Gotta offset Doc ya know!

I belong to a shooting club. The overwhelming majority is voting for whoever is best towards 2nd rights.

Something tells me that we need to stop worrying about "VALUES, CONVICTION and RESOLVE" and vote for something we think would be best for our country and personal freedoms. All I see is a huge pool of people that want more laws. Something tells me that conservative should not mean more laws telling you how to live and liberal should not mean cutting the military.

[highsider]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

I'm gunna vote democrat just because they are democrats. Doesn't matter to me what they represent and how they will lead our country. Gotta offset Doc ya know!

I belong to a shooting club. The overwhelming majority is voting for whoever is best towards 2nd rights.

Something tells me that we need to stop worrying about "VALUES, CONVICTION and RESOLVE" and vote for something we think would be best for our country and personal freedoms. All I see is a huge pool of people that want more laws. Something tells me that conservative should not mean more laws telling you how to live and liberal should not mean cutting the military.

Stop trying to confuse Doc.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by bergs

I'd start with the mass murder in Iraq where he's blatently killing our men and women in the name of greed, oil and power....how's that for a start?

Whoah! Whoah! Whoah!

I hate to pull the military card yet again but who the heck are you to come with that kinda bullshit?

Did you serve over there? Lost friends over there?

How about the mass murder Saddam was doing and was Hanged for?

It was not ALL about oil, greed and power.

[highsider]

Originally Posted by Doc

Whoah! Whoah! Whoah!

I hate to pull the military card yet again but who the heck are you to come with that kinda bullshit?

Did you serve over there? Lost friends over there?

How about the mass murder Saddam was doing and was Hanged for?

It was not ALL about oil, greed and power.

Thats the thing, Doc - you "pull the military card" wayyyyy too often, and look like a putz doing so. I dont see Spence on here rambling that same BS, and I think he was over there just as long (if not longer) than you. I also know a few other soldiers over there who dont share your opinion.

You dont speak for the military, you aren't privy to anything other soldiers arent, and so "pulling the military card" doesn't make your words gospel. You are entitled to you opinion in an equal share to anyone else on this site.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by TESTINGurTOMATO

I agree something needs to be done about our presence in the middle east .... there are muslim exteremist that have poked the US in the eye and we responded by going up to thier the door and shaking a stick at thier closed door while they sniped our stick holders from the next house

Good statement there Tomato.

I got one for ya.

Release the hounds!

[Doc]

Originally Posted by highsider

Thats the thing, Doc - you "pull the military card" wayyyyy too often, and look like a putz doing so. I dont see Spence on here rambling that same BS, and I think he was over there just as long (if not longer) than you. I also know a few other soldiers over there who dont share your opinion.

You dont speak for the military, you aren't privy to anything other soldiers arent, and so "pulling the military card" doesn't make your words gospel. You are entitled to you opinion in an equal share to anyone else on this site.

Very true and I agree.

What I try to say in pulling the card is that if you haven't seen what is going on over there with your own eyes you really can't judge.

I for one (and I will only speak for myself) have seen the good we have done. I may look at things with a different perspective because I have.

Our soldiers are not being slaughtered, they have weapons, they defend themselves. (Contrary to Saddams people) The biggest thing the military wants is the proper equipment and hands off attitude to do the job.

I speak up because that is who I am. Spence may not be that kind of person. I DO not speak for every military person (I actually work with a VERY liberal SFC who can quote the Constitution) I am really sorry it has come out that way.

I just get really sick of all the bleeding hearts who only get their knowledge from CNN and jump on the "Bush is and idiot" bandwagon. This man was elected by the Majority of the country TWICE. He is a figure head who is surrounded by advisors. We may have been duped into the reason why we went in to Iraq but for the good of the world I sincerly believe it is a good thing that we went in.


On another note.
Before 9/11 who actually knew the name Osama Bin Laden? I did. I bet many military folks did too.

I'll tell him you guys said hey. As of right now I will be in Afganistan in 2010.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

I'm gunna vote democrat just because they are democrats. Doesn't matter to me what they represent and how they will lead our country. Gotta offset Doc ya know!

Ok, Ok that came out wrong too.

I am gonna vote Republican because I see no Democrat worth voting for.

[bigred875]

clearly a reputable source with out an agenda

if the dems cant get into the white house with all the bush haters out there they deserve it....

ps - clinton was the only president impeached..EVER for purgery,

[g®eg]

> > Top political slogans of 2007:
> >
> > 1) (On an infant's shirt): Already smarter than Bush
> >
> > 2) 1/20/09: End of an Error
> >
> > 3) That's OK, I Wasn't Using My Civil Liberties Anyway
> >
> > 4) Let's Fix Democracy in THIS Country First
> >
> > 5) If You Want a Nation Ruled By Religion, Move to Iran
> >
> > 6) Bush. Like a Rock. Only Dumber.
> >
> > 7) You Can't Be Pro-War And Pro-Life At The Same Time
> >
> > 8) If You Can Read This, You're Not Our President
> >
> > 9) Of Course It Hurts: You're Getting Screwed by an Elephant
> >
> > 10) Hey, Bush Supporters: Embarrassed Yet?
> >
> > 11) George Bush: Creating the Terrorists Our Kids Will Have to Fight
> >
> > 12) America : One Nation, Under Surveillance
> >
> > 13) They Call Him "W" So He Can Spell It
> >
> > 14) Which God Do You Kill For?
> >
> > 15) Cheney/Satan '08
> >
> > 16) Jail to the Chief
> >
> > 17) Who Would Jesus Torture?
> >
> > 18) No, Seriously, Why Did We Invade?
> >
> > 19) Bush: God's Way of Proving Intelligent Design is Full Of Crap
> >
> > 20) Bad president! No Banana.
> >
> > 21) We Need a President Who's Fluent In At Least One Language
> >
> > 22) We're Making Enemies Faster Than We Can Kill Them
> >
> > 23) Rich Man's War, Poor Man's Blood
> >
> > 24) Is It Vietnam Yet?
> >
> > 25) Bush Doesn't Care About White People, Either
> >
> > 26) Where Are We Going? And Why Are We In This Hand Basket?
> >
> > 27) You Elected Him. You Deserve Him.
> >
> > 28) Frodo Failed. Bush Has the Ring.
> >
> > 29) Impeach Cheney First
> >
> > 30) When Bush Took Office, Gas Was $1.46
> >
> > 31) The Republican Party: Our Bridge to the 11th Century

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by Doc

I just get really sick of all the bleeding hearts who only get their knowledge from CNN and jump on the "Bush is and idiot" bandwagon. This man was elected by the Majority of the country TWICE. He is a figure head who is surrounded by advisors. We may have been duped into the reason why we went in to Iraq but for the good of the world I sincerly believe it is a good thing that we went in.

Seems to me that if a liberal is voted into office, the majority is labeled as dumb and "the masses are asses", etc.

Can't have it both ways.

[highsider]

Bush was only elected by the majority once.

Also Clinton wasn't the only president to ever be impeached, Andrew Johnson would be very upset to not be included in his place in history.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by Doc

Whoah! Whoah! Whoah!

I hate to pull the military card yet again but who the heck are you to come with that kinda bullshit?

Did you serve over there? Lost friends over there?

How about the mass murder Saddam was doing and was Hanged for?

It was not ALL about oil, greed and power.

Bullshit? How do you figure? We are losing people daily over greed....how is that not, in essence, murder?

If a leader from another country wants to kill all his/ her people, who are we, the United States, to go over there and play LEO?

Well it just so happens the countries we are currently occupying have oil.....hmmmm....I think I'm starting to see a correalation here.

It's none of our business who kills whom outside of our borders....just like it's none of our business to be in Israel trying to unite two groups of people that have been fighting for longer than the US has even existed. Those people have been fighting for THOUSANDS of years and some how we figure it's up to the US to make it all pretty and happy? No fuckin' way. It's just not gonna happen in this lifetime.

Doc, I have a newsflash for you...Junior's over in Iraq trying to finish what his daddy couldn't do in the mid-90's, that being implementing democracy in a place that has something of value to us....OIL.

Look at the facts:

Over the years, how many different reasons was the public given for our purpose to occupy Iraq? First it was the search for bin Laden, then it was the search for WMD's, then it was the search for al Qaeda, then it was the search for Hussein....the list keeps going.

Do you not see any of this?

And yes, there are a few people that I know who went over and didn't come back in one piece. How is that significant to you anyway?

[TESTINGurTOMATO]

Bergs you seem upset ....panties in a bunch?

can you answer these questions?


Does the us gov have any way to stop the president from becoming a monarchy?

How was the election fixed????

The war was agreed upon by only the pres?????

Where was there mass murder?????

Who was murdered??

Who gets control of the country after we leave???? (I thought the idea was to allow them to self govern... does the USA or the Bush family get control after soldiers evac?)

If the pres makes a wrong descision doesn't congress have a way to overturn that descision?

If the pres has such little support then why haven't enough of the people spoken up loudly in order to get congress to do something?

Is there was a periodic review process as like any system?
....it's not like the descision to go to war was made and they pronounced the issue "dead" never to be seen, heard, or talked about again.

I must not understand the constitution so well or ....(not that I 100% agree with the current pres) the current congress has not seen any reason for impeachment.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by TESTINGurTOMATO

Bergs you seem upset ....panties in a bunch?

I'm not upset. I just posted an article that I found very amusing.

Not sure how I'm coming across as upset??

can you answer these questions?
Yes


Does the us gov have any way to stop the president from becoming a monarchy?
Yes

How was the election fixed????
Florida (where GW has family in office there) fucked up on the counts...not once but twice!

The war was agreed upon by only the pres?????
No

Where was there mass murder?????
The thousands of troops being sent over to fight in the name of greed...err democracy.
Who was murdered??
I don't have a list of names

Who gets control of the country after we leave???? (I thought the idea was to allow them to self govern... does the USA or the Bush family get control after soldiers evac?)
A loaded question. In the end, we will occupy Iraq for many years to come. There won't be an evac.
Our government is faith-based and GW expects all the Iraqi people to simply adopt our democracy and the beliefs that go with it. It's not going to happen.

If the pres makes a wrong descision doesn't congress have a way to overturn that descision?
Yes. If your boss ran a country would you stand up to him and tell him he's wrong?
If the pres has such little support then why haven't enough of the people spoken up loudly in order to get congress to do something?
A sign of the times I suppose. Problem is people have spoken and it falls on deaf ears. GW has his mind set and that's that.
Is there was a periodic review process as like any system?
....it's not like the descision to go to war was made and they pronounced the issue "dead" never to be seen, heard, or talked about again.
I'm not sure exactly what the question is. There's a periodic review every 4 years if that's what you mean...

I must not understand the constitution so well or ....(not that I 100% agree with the current pres) the current congress has not seen any reason for impeachment.
IMO, the public should be pushing for something like this.....not that it would do anything seeing how impeachment is just a slap on the wrist.

[RandyO]

I heard a forcast of 8 more years of Clinton followed by 8 more years of Bush,

[DucDave]

ver the years, how many different reasons was the public given for our purpose to occupy Iraq? First it was the search for bin Laden, then it was the search for WMD's, then it was the search for al Qaeda, then it was the search for Hussein....the list keeps going.

Don't forget oil, protecting Israel, stability in the Middleast, regime change, promoting democracy, fighting extremist Muslim Fundamentalists, taking the war to terrorists there rather than waiting for it to come here.

And I'm sure lots of other reasons were given too....

Added to your original reasons given....


Oh...and I guess each and everyone one was a bad reason....and when you add them all together....well....

I have no opinion...

[Doc]

Originally Posted by bergs

Bullshit? How do you figure? We are losing people daily over greed....how is that not, in essence, murder?

If a leader from another country wants to kill all his/ her people, who are we, the United States, to go over there and play LEO?

Well it just so happens the countries we are currently occupying have oil.....hmmmm....I think I'm starting to see a correalation here.

It's none of our business who kills whom outside of our borders....just like it's none of our business to be in Israel trying to unite two groups of people that have been fighting for longer than the US has even existed. Those people have been fighting for THOUSANDS of years and some how we figure it's up to the US to make it all pretty and happy? No fuckin' way. It's just not gonna happen in this lifetime.

Doc, I have a newsflash for you...Junior's over in Iraq trying to finish what his daddy couldn't do in the mid-90's, that being implementing democracy in a place that has something of value to us....OIL.

Look at the facts:

Over the years, how many different reasons was the public given for our purpose to occupy Iraq? First it was the search for bin Laden, then it was the search for WMD's, then it was the search for al Qaeda, then it was the search for Hussein....the list keeps going.

Do you not see any of this?

And yes, there are a few people that I know who went over and didn't come back in one piece. How is that significant to you anyway?

Bullshit is that I don't agree that GI's are being murdered.

I also don't agree that "WE" were fed bullshit about Iraq. You have no facts.

Bergs I have a news flash for you, Senior didn't finish what he SHOULD have because of the bleeding hearts here and the civil unrest it would have caused there. Junior is finishing what his old man should have done.

I also don't agree that we do not have a moral obligation to help where we can.

AND I don't agree that it is ALL about oil so stop pulling that card.

Lets just agree to disagree because I honestly don't want to go around and around on this AGAIN.

[highsider]

Originally Posted by Doc

Bullshit is that I don't agree that GI's are being murdered.

They're dying under false pretenses - they were sent to look for Weapons that weren't there, with the approval of Congress based on manipulated information (as the report that started this thread, which I dont think you read, states.)

I also don't agree that "WE" were fed bullshit about Iraq. You have no facts.

I guess that makes "US" a little like the Bush administration. Seriously, did you read the report? Or are you still wearing your heart shaped Bush love glasses?

Bergs I have a news flash for you, Senior didn't finish what he SHOULD have because of the bleeding hearts here and the civil unrest it would have caused there. Junior is finishing what his old man should have done.

I am so glad you said that. I dont even need to respond; it exposes a blatant fact that has been apparent to me since October of 2003.

I also don't agree that we do not have a moral obligation to help where we can.

Okay, so when do we leave for any of the other nations with the exact same problems (yet are lacking a leader who threatened someone's "daddy")?

AND I don't agree that it is ALL about oil so stop pulling that card.

Amen to that...look at the price of oil for fuck's sake.

Lets just agree to disagree because I honestly don't want to go around and around on this AGAIN.

Thats probably not a bad idea, because without the assistance of your silent majority and ignoring certain blatant realities (like the report that incited this thread), you dont really have much to say other than you love Bush and he does no wrong and you're in the military so your opinion is so much more important than anyone else's.

[Doc]

I don't love Bush. I don't hate him either. He has shown he can be a poor public speaker and he doesn't always know his part.

Do you not agree that he is advised on what to do and say and act? Why blame only Bush? You can lay blame all you want but instead of generalizations why don't people try to dig a little deeper. Get to the root cause.

I am in the military yes. I think that because I am in this culture i see thing differently. (not always for the better) but I do think that I see things that other Americans do not. My opinion is no more important or right than anyone elses. It is just different.

False Pretenses? The ONLY reason we went into Iraq was because we thought Saddam had WMD's? I firmly believe we went in to Iraq to topple a dictator. Maybe if they just would have told us all that to begin with... oh but wait, the pansie asses wouldn't have went for it. "continue the sanctions" "let the UN handle it" Blah, blah, blah. I think if you look at the facts at that time you will see we had more than that one reason to go into Iraq.

Report? What report? Oh you mean the news article?

"Named in the study along with Bush were top officials of the administration during the period studied: Vice President Dick Cheney, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan."

Were they all backing u the liar or were they feeding him the intel they were getting?

Is it false if you believe it?

[bergs]

Originally Posted by Doc

Bullshit is that I don't agree that GI's are being murdered.

Tell me exactly how they are not. They certainly aren't there to fight for our freedom....so what exactly are they over there for?

I also don't agree that "WE" were fed bullshit about Iraq. You have no facts.

How is it not bullshit? Over the years the American public has been given numerous different reasons why we are there. Is it all of them? Some of them?
935 lies is all I have to say. I can't wait to read them all.

Bergs I have a news flash for you, Senior didn't finish what he SHOULD have because of the bleeding hearts here and the civil unrest it would have caused there.

How do you figure? We were already commited when daddy went over there because it was apparently our business to do so when Iraq invaded Kuwait....that obviously involves us right? Oil was and is our motivator.
Yes, we had an alliance with Kuwait but was it really our business to jump into someone else's fight? Nope.

Same thing with Israel. We are getting in the middle of two groups that have been at war for many thousands of years. "Oh but we're 'Mericans God-dammit and we're gonna fix it all!"

Junior is finishing what his old man should have done.

Sonny-boy ain't finishing shit. All he's done is play pinata with a bee's nest and we, the American public, are going to pay the price in the long term if we haven't already.

I also don't agree that we do not have a moral obligation to help where we can.

Help is one thing, doing someone else's job because of alterior motives is another.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by Doc

He has shown he can be a poor public speaker and he doesn't always know his part.

He doesn't know his part? WTF?? He's the motherfucking president of the USA and he doesn't know his part??? Holy fucking shit dude!!

Did you see "Farenheit 911"? There's one clip in the begining that shows GW's reaction once he caught wind of the WTC incident. I highly suggest you watch it, if not for that one clip.

Proof right there that he requires someone to tell him what to do or he cannot function....okay, so I agree with you, he doesn't always know his part.

[highsider]

Originally Posted by Doc

I don't love Bush. I don't hate him either. He has shown he can be a poor public speaker and he doesn't always know his part.

Thats all you can find fault in? His public speaking abilities? If that were his biggest problem, I'd be a bigger fan of his than you are.

Do you not agree that he is advised on what to do and say and act? Why blame only Bush? You can lay blame all you want but instead of generalizations why don't people try to dig a little deeper. Get to the root cause.

I agree 100%, which is why I hold him responsible. He's the president, the boss of all of those people. Its his ship to run into the ground, which he has done nicely. The root cause is - ta da - he's a fuckwit who does a shit job of being president.

I am in the military yes. I think that because I am in this culture i see thing differently. (not always for the better) but I do think that I see things that other Americans do not. My opinion is no more important or right than anyone elses. It is just different.

Attaboy, now you're getting it. Thats a big departure from some things you have said on this site before.

False Pretenses? The ONLY reason we went into Iraq was because we thought Saddam had WMD's? I firmly believe we went in to Iraq to topple a dictator.

You can firmly believe whatever you want, that just isn't true. Take a walk through the archives of any news source you like, the Bush administration didn't start crowing about what a bad guy Saddam was until it was apparent they weren't finding weapons. **Like it or dont, the American public and Congress were led to war on the pretenses that Saddam had weapons he would give to terrorists and cause another 9/11.** Everything else was excuses after the fact, a Bush Administration trademark.

Maybe if they just would have told us all that to begin with... oh but wait, the pansie asses wouldn't have went for it. "continue the sanctions" "let the UN handle it" Blah, blah, blah.

Pansies maybe, but I'd argue that it is possible and in fact likely that less people would have been killed, there would have been less cost to the American public, and considerably less credibility lost in the world.

Again - no one has ever argued that Saddam was a good guy. But he was not unlike several and many other leaders of countries in the world. It is apparent that he was singled out for a reason.

Report? What report? Oh you mean the news article?

The news article was describing a report, smartass.

"Named in the study along with Bush were top officials of the administration during the period studied: Vice President Dick Cheney, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan."

Were they all backing u the liar or were they feeding him the intel they were getting?

Is it false if you believe it?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but if its that they all share the blame, then I'm with you 100%. But as I said above, they all worked under Bush, and manipulated facts to say what they wanted so they could achieve a goal - invading Iraq. Thats just plain crooked, and I personally would vote for an impeachment hearing at the very least.

One thing I've never understood about you Doc - its guys like you that I worried about getting killed over there. Call me a pansy, but I dont like people dying. I just dont think we ever had a good reason to bust into Iraq, all by ourselves, and lose our soldiers for that crappy country and its shithead leader. I think the Iraqis will greatly benefit from our actions, but that goal could have been achieved with a lot less blood if our leaders had acted differently. I know you're in the military, and ready to do whatever is necessary, but I hate hearing about guys getting whacked by fuckhead insurgents in a war that was started on such shaky, and clearly erroenous, evidence. And I'd like to see our Commander in Chief finally brought to task for that error in judgment.

[highsider]

For whatever its worth, I thought Fahrenheit 911 sucked ass and was a waste of film. Though Bush's reaction was very, very peculiar.