[l3uddha]

hell, i just bought stocks the other day. economy will bounce back and i'll be ready and waiting. then i'll just pay some poor sap to chop my wood for me.

[Kham]

hey i got an idea. move to mexico where it's warm and let the mexicans move here.

honky only whines about Bush admin. not oil price but i suspect Bush admin has something to do with oil price? hey isn't that the same thing?

yall go chop chop woods now!

[burnham]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

Hell, I'd like to hear some more of my own ideas!

I'll keep you updated. Solar panels will sit atop my addition and it will be a south facing two story room with tons of glass and stone floors to soak up the passive solar.

Yes, exactly the things I'd like to see incorporated into houses. How about radiant heat in that floor? How about a large insulated storage tank for when your boiler is producing excess heat that you don't need? How about a solar collector mounted somewhere on your property that has a loop into the storage tank to bring up the water temperature, even if it just preheats your domestic hot water in the warmer months. Hell, if your storage tank is located higher than your collector, you won't even have to pump the heated water. Or a solar collector that preheats the water for an instant on-demand hot water heater.
Maybe a masonry heater? A large mass of concrete with a heater in it that you burn for short time that gives off heat for days? Some radiant heat loops in the concrete mass?
I agree with Honclfibr, the economy is about to go into a massive shit slide, we are going to have to get used to living a different lifestyle.

[l3uddha]

ugh iglu gonna give it to me now... i'm all for solutions dude. you show me something that works on a large scale and i'll be all for it. i think practicality far outweighs cool ideas.

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by l3uddha

1) pull your head out of your ass.


2) i was referring to tripling from where they are now. and yes, the economy will shit itself.


3) your attemt to come off as better than everyone else for chopping fucking wood is failing. i'm glad you think you can be self sufficient, by all means go ahead and do what you gotta do. that's not how society works however. i suppose you want senior citizens out there splitting logs.

fyi: i and most of the people I know are very financially responsible. we enjoy the pleasures of life when we can, because we fucking can. we do this through hard work, not the government's babysitting. again, i think the constant scent of pine has made you dillusional.


4) dillusional. people have families. they work 2 or 3 jobs to support them. a lot of the people i work with put in 70-80 hours a week and then go home to their wife and kids. i agree that some people should get off their asses, but in your self-proclaimed richeousness you're fucking the hard-working middle class over.

fuck the rest of your post. your whole argument is just not feasible and you obviously live in an entirely different reality out in the middle of nowhere. and fyi, you seem to be complaining more than anyone else...

Better than anyone else for chopping wood? No.

Better off financially? Yes. Isn't that the whole point?

We are all the "hard working middle class". The difference between you and me is I'm going to work smarter, reallocate my time and resources in a way that saves me $$$, time and resources in the end. If that isn't a feasible reality, then I don't know what is. If you want to have pity on the people that do nothing to better themselves and use it as an excuse to create a government full of regulation and "financial equality for all" then you may want to look at the Socialist party.



It's the same thing with the god damn mortgage situation. "HELP! I BOUGHT A HOUSE I COULDN'T AFFORD! NOW I MAY HAVE TO SELL IT! HOW UNFAIR!!!"

Or the classic "OH MY GOD, I DIDN'T READ THE MORTGAGE I SIGNED, NOW I FUCKED MYSELF AND NOBODY IS TO BLAME BUT ME! SOMEONE SAVE ME FROM LOOSING MY 2800 SQUARE FOOT MCMANSION!"

Welcome to WELFARE.

So what exactly is your plan? How will you deal with a recession, increased fuel prices across the board and a job market in the shitter? If you think it's not coming, you are the dillusional one.

Senior citizens? Do you have any idea what senior citizens have done for the past 100 years in our country? They sell their homes and move in with family or get an apartment! Oh wait, that's not fair, right? WHY NOT? The ones that were smart enough saved money and can take care of themselves. The ones that didn't? Well, guess what? You have to take care of yourself or your family foots the bill. All my grandparents had to ditch their houses eventually. It's a reality of life. I'm assuming by your statements that you FEEL that a senior citizen that has no money left is ENTITLED to keep his/her home.

If I had no money, I'd sell my house. Sure beats taking charity.

People have families? Yup, they sure do. They are responsible for them too.

[l3uddha]

oh for the love of God. putting words in my mouth about a completely unrelated topic is no way to prove a point. i'm done with this retarded argument. we're never going to see eye-to-eye, so there's no point. have fun up there and enjoy choppin yer wood. just remember: work smarter, not harder...

[Doc]

Originally Posted by l3uddha

oh for the love of God. putting words in my mouth about a completely unrelated topic is no way to prove a point. i'm done with this retarded argument. we're never going to see eye-to-eye, so there's no point. have fun up there and enjoy choppin yer wood. just remember: work smarter, not harder...

You guys are ARGUING?? I thought this was an intelligent discussion... Like a debate... I love debating!

[TheIglu]

My whole point:

$10 a gallon will happen eventually if we don't do something to fix our consumption issue.

[vfr99999]

Consumption and Bush to blame. Most manufacturing jobs went out of the country way before Bush Mostly to China and Mexico The Clintons were a big help here. China and India and other countries had huge growth = more oil consumption= more demand=high prices for everyone. When you increase the income of millions of people the standard of their living goes up = modern energy consuming life style. Loss of jobs = less money staying in or coming into USA. The people who think burning some wood is hoing to insulate then from the decline of the country due to decades of politics and complaceny are kidding themselves

[richw]

Solid fuel is good exercise

I put a coal stove in my last house. It ran about 40% the cost of oil at the time/ per BTU. You could load it and it ran along for up to 12 hours

Good news there are about 50 new "clean" coal burning electric plants under construction oooppss the carbon tax will kill them but better then burning gas.

MY honest fear is that amateur hour will bring on a more disastrous turn of the economy then another one. Even Hillary would move more cautiously.

If you all fear the future then change brings it on faster.

I still may look into passive solar hot water business.... against electric hot water it saves its current cost.

[Kham]

Originally Posted by vfr99999

Consumption and Bush to blame. Most manufacturing jobs went out of the country way before Bush Mostly to China and Mexico The Clintons were a big help here. China and India and other countries had huge growth = more oil consumption= more demand=high prices for everyone. When you increase the income of millions of people the standard of their living goes up = modern energy consuming life style. Loss of jobs = less money staying in or coming into USA. The people who think burning some wood is hoing to insulate then from the decline of the country due to decades of politics and complaceny are kidding themselves

damn! this makes a lot more sense. are you da man?

[burnham]

Originally Posted by vfr99999

Consumption and Bush to blame. Most manufacturing jobs went out of the country way before Bush Mostly to China and Mexico The Clintons were a big help here. China and India and other countries had huge growth = more oil consumption= more demand=high prices for everyone. When you increase the income of millions of people the standard of their living goes up = modern energy consuming life style. Loss of jobs = less money staying in or coming into USA. The people who think burning some wood is hoing to insulate then from the decline of the country due to decades of politics and complaceny are kidding themselves

I agree with everything you say, I believe this to be the root of most of our problems. There is no fucking way wood is going to bail anybody out of anything. It's free heat for me at this point, the investment has paid for itself. All I have to do is the labor part, which I like. I save $2000 a year at it. As the cost of heat goes up, I save more. It's within my control now. I use some fluorescent bulbs, and do some other stuff, just to lower my monthly bills.
Gas isn't expensive enough yet to make me to find a vehicle that gets better than 14 MPG, yet. I'm saying, I think it will take $10 gas(o.k. maybe $6.50) for any real effort by the American people or our government to to try and conserve and take advantage or invest in what is free, cheap, or clean, or all three. I don't see a lot of it going on from where I sit. I know I'm not doing much.
I don't know what our next fuel source will/should be. I think we'll be burning expensive gasoline for a while because it'll still be cheaper than finding something better. The price will keep going up because demand will most likely do the same. I feel the next president will most likely be dealing with more of the effect part of cause and effect. As a country we got rich over the last fifteen years and pocketed the money rather than putting it toward something sensible.

[Kham]

i think if gas hits $10/gal tomorrow everything would just collaps. the incomes aren't gonna keep up. it has to happen slowly and everything else kept up then it won't be so bad.

fuck i lost interest talking bike already.

[TheIglu]

The economy won't crumble. It didn't when prices quadrupled a few years back.

China is another big reason that no matter what WE do, prices will continue to rise. Even if we tapped the Alaskan reserves, the company doing it will sell to the highest bidder. That will most likely be China in a few years.

[TheIglu]

Wood isn't a feasible heating resource for a lot of people. I agree. I'm in a situation where I can take advantage of relatively free heat and I'm going to do so. Even with prices the way they are, my entire heating bill up to this point since early September has been under $1000 and that includes having a filled tank Monday. I won't be saving money on heating for a few years due to the initial investment of putting in the chimney and wood appliance.

While wood isn't feasible now for a lot of people, just imagine how feasible oil will be once it's $10 a gallon. That's less than three times what it is now. One big hurricane and it is very likely it'll get into the $8/gallon range on it's own.

Be pissed/blind/stubborn all you want. Either do something to take care of yourself or be one of the people crying to the government when the inevitable arrives.

[richw]

$10 is not inevitable unless we do more stupid things.

I have seen gas in real dollars go up and down. If there is a minor recession then prices should back off. It could go down to $2.00 again.

just burning coal in powerplants would go a long way.

I don't think any of our next Presidents have the right stuff to twist the Saudi's arm plus do the drilling etc. we need.

[Kham]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

Better than anyone else for chopping wood? No.

Better off financially? Yes. Isn't that the whole point?

We are all the "hard working middle class". The difference between you and me is I'm going to work smarter, reallocate my time and resources in a way that saves me $$$, time and resources in the end. If that isn't a feasible reality, then I don't know what is. If you want to have pity on the people that do nothing to better themselves and use it as an excuse to create a government full of regulation and "financial equality for all" then you may want to look at the Socialist party.



It's the same thing with the god damn mortgage situation. "HELP! I BOUGHT A HOUSE I COULDN'T AFFORD! NOW I MAY HAVE TO SELL IT! HOW UNFAIR!!!"

Or the classic "OH MY GOD, I DIDN'T READ THE MORTGAGE I SIGNED, NOW I FUCKED MYSELF AND NOBODY IS TO BLAME BUT ME! SOMEONE SAVE ME FROM LOOSING MY 2800 SQUARE FOOT MCMANSION!"

Welcome to WELFARE.

So what exactly is your plan? How will you deal with a recession, increased fuel prices across the board and a job market in the shitter? If you think it's not coming, you are the dillusional one.

Senior citizens? Do you have any idea what senior citizens have done for the past 100 years in our country? They sell their homes and move in with family or get an apartment! Oh wait, that's not fair, right? WHY NOT? The ones that were smart enough saved money and can take care of themselves. The ones that didn't? Well, guess what? You have to take care of yourself or your family foots the bill. All my grandparents had to ditch their houses eventually. It's a reality of life. I'm assuming by your statements that you FEEL that a senior citizen that has no money left is ENTITLED to keep his/her home.

If I had no money, I'd sell my house. Sure beats taking charity.

People have families? Yup, they sure do. They are responsible for them too.

waitaminute mr. worksmarty. what would you call those lendingscammers? the working smart type? a lot of people are trusting?(what's the word for that?). if you dont lend them money in the first place, what the hell can they do? shoot somebody? they're not reckless like drunk driving. there should be law for reckless anything.

some people ask when they don't have but guess what nobody's putting pistol to your head if you don't reach out. they will go somewhere else. Mexico maybe. if you were to run for president what would you say to those non-working smart people? tell them to work smart? but how? i guess living the american dream isn't about just working hard.

for senior citizens "...that were smart enough saved money and can take care of themselves." it doesn't matter. soon they're not gonna be able to wipe themselves and after that last breath.

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by Kham

waitaminute mr. worksmarty. what would you call those lendingscammers? the working smart type? a lot of people are trusting?(what's the word for that?). if you dont lend them money in the first place, what the hell can they do? shoot somebody? they're not reckless like drunk driving. there should be law for reckless anything.

some people ask when they don't have but guess what nobody's putting pistol to your head if you don't reach out. they will go somewhere else. Mexico maybe. if you were to run for president what would you say to those non-working smart people? tell them to work smart? but how? i guess living the american dream isn't about just working hard.

for senior citizens "...that were smart enough saved money and can take care of themselves." it doesn't matter. soon they're not gonna be able to wipe themselves and after that last breath.

Is it a law that everyone owns a house? If someone can't afford a house or can't get a loan for one since they can't really afford it, why should they get a loan or a house?

People need to look out for themselves. BUYER BEWARE. Some people get fucked when they shouldn't of. Is that the rest of the populations responsibility? No, it's the person doing the fucking. You have to watch out for #1. Get educated about what you are doing and take precautions. While it's still not 100%, it's a lot better than most people do.


People that don't work? You are right, I don't give to people I feel are undeserving. I help out my friends whenever I can and help stangers plenty. Do I want my tax dollars going to some lady in Dorchester who paid $480k for a house as a single parent and then refuses to get evicted when her variable rate mortgage payment goes up? NO.

YES, people have gotten fucked by predatory lending. Yes, there are bad lenders out there. YES, there are TONS of resources and government programs to help lower income people become homeowners. But those aren't the easy way out, they aren't the low low low monthly payment for the first two years to make people have a dillusion that they can really afford a $300k house on $75k a year. Same thing with credit cards. You know what your rate is? Probably about 19%. Do people still max their credit cards out? Sure do. Is that the credit card companies fault? Nope, seems like it's the person doing the spending.


God damnit. Everyone bitches about how personal responsibility is in the shitter in this country but wants Papa Government to be responsible for anything remotely unpleasant in their lives.

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by richw

$10 is not inevitable unless we do more stupid things.

I have seen gas in real dollars go up and down. If there is a minor recession then prices should back off. It could go down to $2.00 again.

just burning coal in powerplants would go a long way.

I don't think any of our next Presidents have the right stuff to twist the Saudi's arm plus do the drilling etc. we need.

Stupid things?

Like continue on the path we are taking?

Oil is not a fight we're going to win, nor is it worth fighting.

[Kham]

all i know is that BUYER BEWARE means beware the house dont go to shit after you buy it.

now all i know is whatever the fuck bank tells me how much i can afford after giving them all the info. they're expert and suppose to help you. right i know business is in only for money. i suppose it's not their fault for not giving you the rate prediction in 5 yrs but hands you that 5yr adjustable anyway. the fuckin loan officer makes his cuts and he moves on. what did he care about future economy. dont they know better to lend out $480k adjustable rate to that lady in wherever? if it weren't for these fuckin adjustable we wouldn't be in so much mess. why do they even have this ARM anyway for first time home buyer?

[TheIglu]

Why?

They are in business to make money, that's why. Same with the oil companies.

... and it now all comes together! Capitalism at work.

[TheIglu]

Remember, you buy a mortgage just like a house. Gotta shop around, read the fine print and be realistic.

[TheIglu]

Kham, the bank told us we could afford $250k for a house.

Sure! Before taxes, food, living expenses, etc!

Take what the bank says and shoot for 75% of that number. Banks use numbers only, not life.

[Kham]

Originally Posted by TheIglu

Kham, the bank told us we could afford $250k for a house.

Sure! Before taxes, food, living expenses, etc!

Take what the bank says and shoot for 75% of that number. Banks use numbers only, not life.

why don't they tell you take 75% of that number? how hard is that?

you're missing the point. they're all fuckin greedy and look now they're going down too.

[TheIglu]

Yeah, they are. Just like we are. You want money? I sure do.

If you don't want to give them your money, don't do business with them. Simple as that.