[richw]

We pull out of Iraq

Iran saber rattles and Iraq has to agree to a shite puppet regime.
The other Arab nations know the pussy won't help them and get in line with what Acmed in Iran tells them to do. raise oil prices

Meanwhile a 20% tax increase and higher oil prices tanks our economy and causes run away inflation like Carter did. The dollar drops like a stone and maybe even causes OPEC to trade oil in Euros not dollars, dollar drops by 50%.

Aggressive EPA and OSHA and labor laws drive the last manufacturing out of the US. While the elimination of any Mexico barrier has another 30 million new citizens in your neighborhood doing your job for $8/ hour

When the dust settles $10 a gallon for gas.

It won't matter because all us common scum won't be able to afford vehicles anyway.

Change is good !!!

[Nix]

Jeez...I was in a decent, sort of happy mood like 10 seconds ago...then I read this post...and you're probably f'n right. I think the moonshining industry will come back if that happens...but they'll be brewing fuel instead. Either that or we'll be doing it in our own kitchens with vegetable oil or some shit.

The times they are a changin'. We'll all be driving an "IT" if shit doesn't change soon.

[agrabau]

Lots of speculation there, short on reality.

[UPANDCOMING]

I say pull our troops out , GI's are over there every day getting killed for nothing, start drilling alaska and fuck those animal rights and tree hugging fucks..

[CMG41]

and we're doing SO WELL now.... If we didn't have such poor leadership in office the lesser of 2 evils wouldn't be SO evil.

[CMG41]

Originally Posted by UPANDCOMING

I say pull our troops out , GI's are over there every day getting killed for nothing, start drilling alaska and fuck those animal rights and tree hugging fucks..

You're going to get the first half of what you wish for with the democrats coming - thankfully you've got less of a chance in getting the second half.

signed,
Mr T Hugger.

[l3uddha]

lol those graphs are clear evidence of what happens when democrats play with numbers. i'm not scrutinizing the data itself, just the obvious and biased message that it is trying to send. interesting that on the top, the most important date of all is left out. gee i wonder why...


and the big deal with alaska is that there isn't enough oil up there to sustain the country for long. just a drop in the bucket really...

[richw]

well I don't think we can avoid $4 gas in either way.

If we kick the tree huggers and use our coal plus anwar we do have enough

then build 1000 nuke plants and you can have your hydrogen

I think we can keep Iran at bay if we just have a presents in a base so get
our soldiers away from the Iraqis and in a safe perimiter base. For you peace people very expensive energy will kill and starve people too

[highsider]

Originally Posted by l3uddha

lol those graphs are clear evidence of what happens when democrats play with numbers. i'm not scrutinizing the data itself, just the obvious and biased message that it is trying to send. interesting that on the top, the most important date of all is left out. gee i wonder why...


and the big deal with alaska is that there isn't enough oil up there to sustain the country for long. just a drop in the bucket really...

Cite. (on both "points")

[CMG41]

I'm all for a nuke plant in every county myself. Hell electric motorcycles have come a long way..



Bill Dube wrecks the fastest electric motorcycle

[l3uddha]

Originally Posted by highsider

Cite. (on both "points")

there's a shit-ton more that goes into why those figures are what they are, than just the current president. those plots show only selective information and basically prove nothing. think of things like inflation, 9/11, etc. the list is too big... to list!

as far as the oil in alaska, i suggest calling PIRG and listening to what they have to say. they'll give you all the numbers you want...

the oil is in Iraq.

dammit i hate these discussions...

[Degsy]

Originally Posted by l3uddha

as far as the oil in alaska, i suggest calling PIRG and listening to what they have to say. they'll give you all the numbers you want...

.

Yes, and then I'll give you the telephone number for greenpeace and you can ask them if we should stop killing whales or not.

PIRG? Look up AKpirg's website and you'll see that their agenda is heavily tainted by the tree-hugging dreamers who think everything can run on hydrogen by next tuesday. gimme a break.

If I want to know how much oil is in Alaska, I'll ask the oil and exploration companies who are spending BILLIONS in trying to find out exactly how much is there and exactly where it is. These companies don't give billions away to fund a couple of billion barrels. My bet (from a little research and settling on a rough medium estimate from estimates on both ends of the spectrum) is ABOUT 10 Billion barrels (give or take a billion or two).

Now, conservative estimates put the reserves in Iraq at 200 Billion barrels, which means there's probably 300billion or so, all told. So, yeah, there's a shitload of oil in Iraq, but there's plenty in Alaska to keep us going for several decades, even if we stopped buying oil from Canada (our biggest oil supplier) today.

[l3uddha]

Originally Posted by Degsy

Yes, and then I'll give you the telephone number for greenpeace and you can ask them if we should stop killing whales or not.

ummmm not sure what whales have to do with anything...

Originally Posted by Degsy

PIRG? Look up AKpirg's website and you'll see that their agenda is heavily tainted by the tree-hugging dreamers who think everything can run on hydrogen by next tuesday. gimme a break.

If I want to know how much oil is in Alaska, I'll ask the oil and exploration companies who are spending BILLIONS in trying to find out exactly how much is there and exactly where it is. These companies don't give billions away to fund a couple of billion barrels. My bet (from a little research and settling on a rough medium estimate from estimates on both ends of the spectrum) is ABOUT 10 Billion barrels (give or take a billion or two).

Now, conservative estimates put the reserves in Iraq at 200 Billion barrels, which means there's probably 300billion or so, all told. So, yeah, there's a shitload of oil in Iraq, but there's plenty in Alaska to keep us going for several decades, even if we stopped buying oil from Canada (our biggest oil supplier) today.

1)
Alaska Oil Field's Falling Production Reflects U.S. Trend

2) (from wikipedia of all places)
The U.S. consumes about 20 million barrels daily. If the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge oil reserves were used to supply 5% of the U.S. daily consumption -- most is imported from Canada (19%), Mexico (15%), Saudi Arabia (11.5%), Nigeria (10.5%) and Venezuela (10.5%)[11] -- the reserves, using the low figure of 4.3 billion barrels, would last approximately 4300 days, or almost 12 years. Using the high estimate, the reserves would last approximately 11800 days, or 32 years. If the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge was used to meet 100% of U.S. demand, it would last for 215 days under the low estimate, and 525 days or just 1.4 years if it contained 10.4 billion barrels.

-------------------------

lots of things to consider. just a very few:
it'll take a decade or maybe a little less to get a decent volume of oil flowing out of alaska per day.
the pipeline isn't nearly big enough, which means shipping via sea.
it's spider-web drilling, meaning smaller fields, but all over the place. lots of roads to build and transporting.
i'm sure there's a large span of numbers, but from what i've seen 10billion barrels is towards the upper limit.

might wanna reconsider the whole "stop buying oil from canada" statement. there's no way alaska could sustain that volume very long, let alone produce it at that rate.
the question was never if there's any oil in alaska. it's there. it won't last us very long though. and define "several" decades....

question is, is it worth it? from what i can see we've already got one foot planted in iraq. in the same time it would take to get a trickle of oil flowing out of alaska that will last us 32 years with a high estimate, there will be MUCH more coming out of iraq, which will last much longer than any of our kids will have to worry about.

i'm not for drilling in alaska because i just don't find it very practical in the long run. something about ripping up the wildlife reservation for a trickle of oil bugs me too, but where i stray from all the crusty-asses and their wind farms, is when i say that stability in the middle east and iraq maximizing it's oil production is the best solution for the WORLD, not just the US. and i thought you were from overseas degsy. don't you know a lot of countries are already paying an arm & a leg for oil? the iraq oil isn't just to help out THIS country...

[highsider]

Fact: Neither Buddha, myself, nor anyone else in the world knows how much oil is in Alaska. However, I would bet that oil companies are interested for a reason.

Fact: That chart shows the US defecit, over a period of time. It does not indicate any reasons why, it simply gives info. If you interpret it as propaganda, I suggest taking the tinfoil hat off.

[l3uddha]

Originally Posted by highsider

Fact: That chart shows the US defecit, over a period of time. It does not indicate any reasons why, it simply gives info. If you interpret it as propaganda, I suggest taking the tinfoil hat off.

look at how the data was presented. that's all i'm sayin. people get their hands on that and use it as propaganda, when again, there's a lot more that go into those numbers than just the president attached to them.


and even if there's the lowball figure or oil in Alaska of around 4billion barrels the oil companies will still make money off it. for one, the government gives US oil companies HUGE kickbacks. two, they know if the US supports the Alaska route, it's really the solution we'll be riding on and the oil in Iraq will be put on the back burner. they'll still make a HUGE profit because they know we'll have to pay whatever prices they set. they'll control the flow and in the not too distant future it'll start to trickle off just, like Prudhdoe Bay. the oil companies will ALWAYS come out on top! the US has been talking about alternative energy, fuel efficient cars, etc since the 1970s. don't expect any huge changes any time soon...

i don't claim to know exactly how much oil is in Alaska, the exact numbers are irrelevant in the big scheme of things. all that's needed to know is that it won't last us long and is most likely a wasted effort. it'll never rival the amount in Iraq. it's like making a temporary fix, instead of a long-term solution. eventually we'll be BACK in Iraq trying to blast them out of the stone-age and maximize their oil production.

also- it's not just the big middle-east countries, like Iran, that we're worried about coming into Iraq after we leave. there are bigger countries on the energy squeeze that rely on Iraq's oil. Russia is one off the top of my head... if we leave, we've basically set the stage and cleared a path for anyone to come in right after us.

[Doc]

I gotta say Chris... If you take off your rose colored glasses and look objectively at the graph it is a lil propagandaish..

I mean why have the Clinton years shown as off the chart? Could they have just made the chart a lil bigger?

(Small thing I noticed) Please continue.

[l3uddha]

i'd like to see the overall time-base, not just that snapshot. with inflation factored into the numbers. then it might start to be useful...

[CMG41]

I didn't write and wouldn't defend its accuarcy, I found the chart with a 2 second google search and wasn't so concerned with Clinton (I'm not a democrat) as much as Bushy's last 7 years. There is no denying he took a huge surplus and turned it into the largest deficit in record time. and in most opinions the excuse that ran until 2004ish is gone, the elusive WMD's never existed. He put us in a war thats expense your grandchildren will still be paying for long after we are gone.
For all of the people that fear democrats being back in office they can't blame it on Hillary's or Obama's great ideas or lies - people are running from republicans because of what Bush has done - again the lesser of 2 evils.
lets not pretend we are going to change each others politics (you've got a better chance of making me believe in ghosts, spirits and god) For the record I voted for Regan & Bush Sr, was a registered republican but have been independent for 10 years any ways. I am a environmentalist (I am here for a similar interest as the rest of you though, motorcycles), hate that almost every democrat politician wants to give my money to those that won't work, to nations that hate me and use the word free all to often. I do have to vote for them though - Bush is a prime example of what I hate about the republicans. He almost immediately set back the clean air standards for pollution from factories, opened federal land to logging without regard - given the opportunity he would pave Yellowstone and Alaska in the same week-end.
again we all have our own value and Bush will be judged by history, not just me.
now back to the track talk please!

[richw]

It s hard to stay with Bush believe me things could be lots worse.

We could also drill for oil off both coasts and the gulf but nimby is stopping it.

Environmental concerns are good but its hard to tell the "grant seekers" from legitimate science. They automatically discount ANY information that runs contrary to their Gaea dogma. Remember every industry driven from the USA results in it being set up in a 3rd world country with ZERO environmental considerations.

Bring it back home my point was Obama's naive hippy plan will cause untold trouble and suffering for the American people.

[OreoGitorio]

Originally Posted by richw

Bring it back home my point was Obama's naive hippy plan will cause untold trouble and suffering for the American people.

[Doc]

I predict McCain will win the Presidency.

[TheIglu]

The ONLY way to win the oil fight is to get out of it completely.

While my oil tank is being filled at $3.29/gallon tommorrow, I'm not going to ask/demand/plead for the government to do shit about it. Next year my wood furnace will cut my heating bill to a third of what it is now.


Or, I could just keep bitching about it and expect our government to "do something". IMO, they should butt the fuck out and let economic Darwinism take care of this shit once and for all. The rest of you can continue to bitch about those crazy liberals while you demand the equivalent of fuel Welfare with no limit or reason to stop.

[TheIglu]

Originally Posted by Doc

I predict McCain will win the Presidency.

He should of won 4 years ago, too bad our country is more concerned with "sending the right message" than bettering ourselves.

[greenmonster]

Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

LMAO!! or should I be crying instead? This guy scares me. An empty suit. All style, no substance. Wants to "negotiate" with Iran. Wants to "open up a dialogue" with terrorist leaders. Fuckin' naive. Not one single accomplishment listed thus far in his political career. Watched Fox news several days ago...had a clip of a reporter asking a strident Obama supporter to list just one of Obamas accomplishments. The dude was like "Uh, uh, uh, Ummm". Had no come back. Guys a great public speaker, but thats it. Cult of personality.

[l3uddha]

Originally Posted by greenmonster

LMAO!! or should I be crying instead? This guy scares me. An empty suit. All style, no substance. Wants to "negotiate" with Iran. Wants to "open up a dialogue" with terrorist leaders. Fuckin' naive. Not one single accomplishment listed thus far in his political career. Watched Chris Matthews a week back...had a clip of a reporter asking a strident Obama supporter to list just one of Obamas accomplishments. They dude was dumbfounded. Had no come back. Guys a great public speaker, but thats it. Cult of personality.

THANK YOU!