Nice VT Ride Sunday!

[out thumped]

Cycle Conservation Club of Vermont

Sunday the 23rd at 830-930AM leaving from the scenic Long Trail Tavern on RT15 in Johnson, VT.
$20.00 for non members to join (Great cause) and free to members.
Route sheets at the start.
Great rides, Great folks, great burgers and Brews.
That's the genius of starting from a tavern;
You end at a Tavern; Brilliant!
See you there,
OT

[out thumped]

This ride is a routed sheet ride and is 135 miles long.
See you there Sunday.
They are usually pretty easy rides and a lot of guys come on 650's.
OT

[Tiger_1050_VT]

As you guys pass thru the Old County Road in Stowe I ask that you PLEASE show more respect for the land than last year's ride! I had to deal with silt damage for months afterwards! I can see why VAST doesn't want to be associated with CCCofVT.

[highsider]

As you guys pass thru the Old County Road in Stowe I ask that you PLEASE show more respect for the land than last year's ride! I had to deal with silt damage for months afterwards! I can see why VAST doesn't want to be associated with CCCofVT.

if I'm not mistaken, the CCC of VT only rides on State Roads (mostly Class IV) and public land. Did someone ask you for permission to ride on your land?

[Tiger_1050_VT]

if I'm not mistaken, the CCC of VT only rides on State Roads (mostly Class IV) and public land. Did someone ask you for permission to ride on your land?

The road was washed out 40 years ago and is little more than a deep gully with the soil held in place by moss and grass...which the passage of motorcycles (especially one hot head in the group) tore up pretty badly. Every rain since their last visit has washed more silt onto my land downhill.

The road was never thrown up even though it no longer exists, so what they did was legal...but with the word "conservation" in their name and knowing the concerns of an adjacent landowner, I would have appreciated a bit more responsibility in their approach. Not to mention having a group that size roar past my house repeatedly raised so much dust in the air that my house and vehicles were covered in grit for days.

Small wonder VAST wants little to do with them! If they cause that much damage this year I'll be at every hearing in every town with my photographs.

God I detest people who think their rights trump responsibility! Makes me wonder how many aggressive cagers are that way because they had a run in with that class of biker.

[highsider]

I dont meant to be a ball breaker, but aside from the people who went off the trail, it doesn't sound like they did anything wrong. If its a state road, they have the right to ride on it.

[Tiger_1050_VT]

I dont meant to be a ball breaker, but aside from the people who went off the trail, it doesn't sound like they did anything wrong. If its a state road, they have the right to ride on it.

Legal, but not ethical and absolutely destructive. It's also legal for me to hound them in front of the various selectboards they approach asking for passage. I would be more than glad to share my experiences as they try to expand their trail network.

[ChR1s]

Good for you, knower of all that is right & good. Destructive? Unethical? Go hug a tree, but not too hard.

[Tiger_1050_VT]

Good for you, knower of all that is right & good. Destructive? Unethical? Go hug a tree, but not too hard.

Hey, f**k you! When they turn what was a beautiful clear running stream on my land into a mud pit that just plain sucks. How would you feel if it happened on your land? This is how bikers lose rights, jerk!

[ChR1s]

Good to see you're not one of them pacifists.

Hey, if the stream was messed up, why? There should be no stream crossings at all unless there's a means to go over the stream. Yes, it seems some riders are not aware of the consequences of churning up the silt. Keeping things like that from happening can be accomplished via education, and bridges. The attitude of "banning" is not something that I like to see.

[Tiger_1050_VT]

Good to see you're not one of them pacifists.

Hey, if the stream was messed up, why? There should be no stream crossings at all unless there's a means to go over the stream. Yes, it seems some riders are not aware of the consequences of churning up the silt. Keeping things like that from happening can be accomplished via education, and bridges. The attitude of "banning" is not something that I like to see.

I'm a Marine, Chris. I don't believe in pacifism. Thanks for responding with grace.

The entire old washed out road IS a stream now. Every single passage stirs up the muck. Like you, I hate bans but after this experience can easily see how they happen. It really sucks having a slimy mud pit where once clear water ran over granite boulders.

[ChR1s]

It certainly sounds like this is primarily an issue of uncontolled storm water runoff, rather than the product of unrestrained riders. Your local conservation commission should be contacted with regard to that type of problem. Some riders may have aggrevated the situation, but it seems some work is needed to divert water if a "stream" has been created.

[yzf600r]

Tiger, As a motorcyclist, Why don't you join CCC or go to a meeting and discuss the issue. I used to be you of these guys that didn't care. Then I grew up joined a club to help save my right to ride. I don't think this is the right place to just start bashing a couple of people. This is not to bash you in anyway. If you send an email to a club officier of the ride in question,I'm sure they would get back to you and discuss the issues you have.

[highsider]

The CCC of VT does not have to go before any selectboards to get permission; they ride on public roadways and therefore have no need to do so.

The road near your house is, I am assuming a Class IV road. It is also likely what is referred to as an "ancient" road; i.e., that road was there before either you or I were born, and if current legislation passes, will remain in perpetuity. Much like I dont appreciate people speeding down Route 116 (the road I live on), there is nothing I can do about it. I can't say, "Hey, I bought a house here and you people are being irresponsible on the road in front of it, therefore Route 116 is now closed."

If the road near your house was a VAST trail, they would not bother asking you for permission, as they dont have to either; its a state road. But if you watch VAST volunteers maintaining trails, they all ride 4 wheelers. In reality, I dont think they're any better or worse than CCC.

I guess my point is that I sympathize with what you are saying about the impact on you as a homeowner next to the roadway, but since it is a public roadway, people like myself who enjoy dual sport riding have every bit as much claim to that road as you do.

[Tiger_1050_VT]

I guess my point is that I sympathize with what you are saying about the impact on you as a homeowner next to the roadway, but since it is a public roadway, people like myself who enjoy dual sport riding have every bit as much claim to that road as you do.

And my point is that's how riders like us lose rights...

[out thumped]

Tiger,
Must you roar so?
The mud pit you refer to, is that the one that was right next to the large pile of earth that was moved by some overly aggressive land owner to block the entrance to a Class 4 road?

I met you last year during the "ride" and you were sitting about ten feet from the "man made bog" in question on your large, heavily tracked, bright orange Kubota, yelling about erosion and kids ripping through your property at mach speeds. Turns out that most were older than you.

Tiger, I am going to look hard at the illegal blockage on my roadway. I hope you put that Kubota to good use and fill the bog back in and right the major wrong done by some overbearing land owner.

I understand that owning vast tracks of breathtaking VT land can be frustrating when the little common people find a legal loop hole to enjoy a sliver of what you have.

I was one of the last riders down the road that day and I paid close attention to the carnage you described.
I noted some fresh knobby marks in the hardened road bed. I wonder what would happen if you ever drove your big tracked Kubota on that road. I shutter to think!

Tiger, If you want to join our club, you are more than welcome. I remember you told me that you own a dirt bike, a Honda 150 as I recall.

Come on Tiger, we will let you lead the ride. Come on Marine! Join the cause! We also do a lot of trail maintanaince and could use your Kubota for good not evil.
You know Tiger as I told you that day the greatest threat to your land and all the large privatly owned tracks of land in VT are land owners just like you Tiger. One bad day on the market and it's time to subdivide grandad's land.

I have yet to hear someone say look at that valley, it used to be Tiger's Mt until those damn dirt bikers rode over it and it eroded it all away.

But seriously Tiger, come out with us and have some fun.
I love Marines. But first give your kid his mini bike back and get a real dirt bike! You couldn't keep up wit uz cuz ya knows wez halz assess!!
See ya Sunnyday,
OT

PS;
Tiger,
I know I am just another dumb VT dirt Biker, so rather than try to articulate, I have attached some light reading. One link refers to the recent VT Supremes decision to place the burden of maintenance of class 4 roads on adjacent land owners and the second is VT title 19 SS 1105 the crime of "Obstructing the roadway". I will try to be at the meetings and we can see who is a bigger Dick Head.

http://resources.vlct.org/u/lc_02_04a.pdf

The Vermont Statutes Online

[ChR1s]

PS;
Tiger,
I know I am just another dumb VT dirt Biker, so rather than try to articulate, I have attached some light reading. One link refers to the recent VT Supremes decision to place the burden of maintenance of class 4 roads on adjacent land owners and the second is VT title 19 SS 1105 the crime of "Obstructing the roadway". I will try to be at the meetings and we can see who is a bigger Dick Head.

http://resources.vlct.org/u/lc_02_04a.pdf

The Vermont Statutes Online

Thanks for that reference material, OT. There's some confused abutters in the southern end of the state that I would like to share that info with.

[Tiger_1050_VT]

It was a 350, but you got the Honda part right. I like old stuff.

The mud pit is not where I was working that day. What you saw was a work in process and if you look closely today you'll see a nice grassy channel there to keep the private road from washing out.

And those stumps were spaced far enough apart to allow passage of hikers and bikers, but not kids in their 4x4 pickups that have caused so much damage in the past. The kids I referred to that day were kids. Pimply kids racing up and down the hill. I believe I correctly identified your age as mid-30s to 40s.

I don't mind sharing my land with responsible folks, and in fact you'll notice the private road is gated (for the pickup crowd) but not posted. But must you spin tires all the way up the hill? And must you ride that particularly delicate section when not 40 feet away is much more solid, stable ground? If you have the time this morning hang a left at the Haul Road and take a close look at the sediment in the pond below the graveyard. It was a living, vibrant pond till your group of a dozen tore up that road just before an extended period of rain. Now it's all muck, as are sections of the stream passing my home. Careful riding would have prevented that, and in the end that's what I was asking of you. Not "Don't ride here," but "Ride carefully here."

On my walk yesterday I noticed that old Class IV road wasn't good enough for you, you had to explore the old logging roads on my land and tear the hell out of some pretty steep slopes. Now that sort of thing will certainly further the cause of land access for riders!

Tracked vehicles have among the lightest footprints. My excavator creates only 4.2 pounds per square inch fully loaded. I can drive it across my rain soaked meadow and leave nary a trace. The footprint of your bike with that tiny contact patch is far more than that, as is the damage.

You mention trail maintenance. All I have to go by is this one very destructive experience. I'd love to see some of the good you guys have done. But VAST won't deal with you. Their trail maintenance folks say dirt bikes cause thousands of dollars worth of damage to the trails which they must repair. Do you help with the work or the cost? VAST says no. Me and my excavator would be interested in helping them, because they at least respect the land and adjacent landowners through club rules that all can abide by. I spoke with your club president yesterday and was told he had no influence over the hotheads, that the club really had no rules. Sounds like a mob to me.

Thanks for the links. You might also want to read the Agency of Natural Resources statutes on silting of headwaters. Or you could help me remove some of that silt; it's tough work even with equipment.

[Tiger_1050_VT]

See ya Sunnyday,

Ya know, I hope I do meet you again this morning. I'll try to be up there when you guys come thru. I'd like to start over and pretend that you had stopped by the house that first day and asked permission instead of just riding around the gate. Under those conditions you would have found me a lot easier to get along with. We could have chatted about my concerns and come up with alternatives that worked for all. Lord knows there are enough hunters who use my land with permission. I'd have been glad to have walked it with you, pointing out the delicate spots to avoid.

So let's just pretend that's the way it went down and have a nice talk in the Vermont way, okay?

[out thumped]

What gate are you talking about. I met you at the blocked entrance to the class 4 rd.

You had blocked the right of way with the dirt mound and the hole you dug made a delicte but silty eco system called a mud hole.

We then took the only right of way left and went around the hole you dug. I even did so with your unneeded permission. Just because you put up a wire does not make it leagal, same as blocking the road with a dirt pile.

All you have done is widen the road and cause unneed trampling of the virgin flora, The poor flowers and shrubs you put in harms way, how do you sleep at night.
OT