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American holidays

  1. #51
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by kb1 View Post
    I never said Europe didn't put up a fight, what I said was if the US did not step into the war, for whatever the reason, Europe would have been lost to Germany. London was under constant German barrage and it was only a matter of time before the Nazis crossed the channel, it's the channel that bought England the time in the first place. It's that ungrateful attitude that is frustrating. Sorry that we are grateful for our firefighters, our policemen, our service men and women, and take the time to thank them on the holidays. Personally, I would rather be over-grateful than the other way.

    Gah - I'm sucked in and can't escape the debate!
    So when can they stop thanking us? How long is enough? like 50 years? 100? Construct a statue in our honor?

    Tsorfras, I feel bad for you opening up this can of worms. Not all Americans are this in-your-face about it, but many are. Their loud, and often emotional commentary drowns the reasonable people out. There is a strong social pressure to 'thank the troops' as many times as possible to demonstrate your 'Merican-ness. I just don't see how Tsorfras is demonstrating any ungratefulness. Maybe he isn't flowering with gratitude in the way you'd like or expect, or maybe he pays his respects in other ways?

    I think the holiday thing is seen more as a time for celebration here. Holidays aren't as much a solemn event as they are a time to hang out and BBQ. For less happy occasions, those tend to be 'days of remembrance', which aren't holidays or days off.

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  2. #52
    Pescador de Ilusões Eddie's Avatar
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    Re: American holidays

    Two things about the citizenship process:

    1. When you see in that room and the ginasium becomes a court room as the Judge walk in. Be proud you are there. Don't talk on the phone, actually don't talk at all. Do not read the paper. Be damn proud to be an America but also be ready to bear arms to defend your country if called into duty.

    2. I know you mentioned something about the European settleting here...but don't forget that the Native American were here first. They too are a big part of American history and I'm sure that there will be questions about that in the history exam.

    Carry on...you guys were saying something about holidays and scorching heat.

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  3. #53
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    its funny because I am doing my paperwork for my citizenship and the stuff we learn about american history nobody at my work or school knows/remembers.
    and as degsy very well said unfortunatelly most (younger) people dont know the meaning behind the holidays. for most people its an extra day, 4th of july is fireworks, memorial day is cookouts, thanksgiving is drinking.
    Actually, we ALL learned about it growing up. What people may or may not remember about it is a different story all together. We learned about ALL of it from the start of elementary school right up through the last days of high school. The key here is we didn't HAVE TO remember the details as someone applying for citizenship does. That's not a dig on anyone, it's just the way it is. You NEED to know this now in order to become a citizen. As 'natural' citizens, we have a right to NOT remember what those are all about. Not saying that's right...again, just the way it is...

    The simple fact that you or anybody from another country comes here and tries to earn citizenship speaks volumes about the state of the world and the U.S., regardless of current economical and political situations. Say what you all want, there's very definite reasons 'foreigners' seek citizenship in the U.S.. Again, not a dig on anyone. You can take any branch of my family tree and quickly learn that no matter which one you take, I'm only 2nd generation myself...

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  4. #54
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by kb1 View Post
    Also - would probably be a wise idea for the European's here to say a thank-you to our troops as well. If it weren't for the sacrifice of US service men and women you would all be German right now...
    Are you in the habit of thanking French troops for the fact that you aren't British?

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honclfibr
    Quote Originally Posted by kb1 View Post
    Also - would probably be a wise idea for the European's here to say a thank-you to our troops as well. If it weren't for the sacrifice of US service men and women you would all be German right now...
    Are you in the habit of thanking French troops for the fact that you aren't British?
    Dude, you completely lost him there.

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman
    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    its funny because I am doing my paperwork for my citizenship and the stuff we learn about american history nobody at my work or school knows/remembers.
    and as degsy very well said unfortunatelly most (younger) people dont know the meaning behind the holidays. for most people its an extra day, 4th of july is fireworks, memorial day is cookouts, thanksgiving is drinking.
    Actually, we ALL learned about it growing up. What people may or may not remember about it is a different story all together. We learned about ALL of it from the start of elementary school right up through the last days of high school. The key here is we didn't HAVE TO remember the details as someone applying for citizenship does. That's not a dig on anyone, it's just the way it is. You NEED to know this now in order to become a citizen. As 'natural' citizens, we have a right to NOT remember what those are all about. Not saying that's right...again, just the way it is...

    The simple fact that you or anybody from another country comes here and tries to earn citizenship speaks volumes about the state of the world and the U.S., regardless of current economical and political situations. Say what you all want, there's very definite reasons 'foreigners' seek citizenship in the U.S.. Again, not a dig on anyone. You can take any branch of my family tree and quickly learn that no matter which one you take, I'm only 2nd generation myself...
    This.

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  7. #57
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Actually, we ALL learned about it growing up. What people may or may not remember about it is a different story all together. We learned about ALL of it from the start of elementary school right up through the last days of high school. The key here is we didn't HAVE TO remember the details as someone applying for citizenship does. That's not a dig on anyone, it's just the way it is. You NEED to know this now in order to become a citizen. As 'natural' citizens, we have a right to NOT remember what those are all about. Not saying that's right...again, just the way it is...

    The simple fact that you or anybody from another country comes here and tries to earn citizenship speaks volumes about the state of the world and the U.S., regardless of current economical and political situations. Say what you all want, there's very definite reasons 'foreigners' seek citizenship in the U.S.. Again, not a dig on anyone. You can take any branch of my family tree and quickly learn that no matter which one you take, I'm only 2nd generation myself...
    Thanks Jay, you said what I was trying to say and made an ass of myself doing so in the process. This post says it all in a non-confrontational way.

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  8. #58
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Actually, we ALL learned about it growing up. What people may or may not remember about it is a different story all together. We learned about ALL of it from the start of elementary school right up through the last days of high school. The key here is we didn't HAVE TO remember the details as someone applying for citizenship does. That's not a dig on anyone, it's just the way it is. You NEED to know this now in order to become a citizen. As 'natural' citizens, we have a right to NOT remember what those are all about. Not saying that's right...again, just the way it is...

    The simple fact that you or anybody from another country comes here and tries to earn citizenship speaks volumes about the state of the world and the U.S., regardless of current economical and political situations. Say what you all want, there's very definite reasons 'foreigners' seek citizenship in the U.S.. Again, not a dig on anyone. You can take any branch of my family tree and quickly learn that no matter which one you take, I'm only 2nd generation myself...
    I will tell you why i disagree with what you said. completely ignore what I say if i have missed what you really meant.
    1) not all of you have learned about it. I did go to college here and i know not all professors/teachers share those values and beliefs.
    2) they SHOULD be important to you. more important than me getting my citizenship. this part of who YOU are, this is YOUR history. You should know it inside - out and never forget it. and YOU should transfer it to your children as well
    3) "Say what you all want, there's very definite reasons 'foreigners' seek citizenship in the U.S" i dont think anyone has denied that or argued about it. I came here on my own decision and I have worked VERY hard in order to stay here legally.
    4) "As 'natural' citizens, we have a right to NOT remember what those are all about." - my opinion on that is the proud to be an American stickers and similar trades are plain fucking stupid. You did NOTHING in order to be an american than somebody giving birth to you here. Theres nothing to be proud about because you did not accomplish anything. You can be proud of living in America, or supporting America but you did nothing to be proud of being American. (by you clearly I mean people who believe in those trades). If you wanna be proud to be an American, learn and remember your history.

    thread is completely of track.

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  9. #59
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    I've been reading this thread and didn't plan on commenting....but how the hell was this America's problem? Just like Iraq and Afghanistan shouldn't have been.
    This opens up a whole other topic of discussion, namely the justness of involvement in a war and the US's place in the world. Many would argue that WW2 was the last "just" war, with the US reluctantly entering in order to help fight against an enemy with truly evil motives bent on world domination.

    Let's be honest here, the Nazis and the German war machine in general now seem straight out of a comic book or superhero movie. The US practically HAD to join the fight in order to protect itself from eventually having a much harder fight for its own survival.

    Each war since then has not been nearly as critical to this nation's survival or to the survival of the principles on which this nation was founded. But those principles do raise a moral question: can we really just stand by and watch as genocide is being committed in places like Kosovo, or do we have a moral obligation as the world's most powerful nation to try to do something about it? Let's reduce this question to a much more personal level: if you see your neighbor's wife being attacked and raped, is it right for you to just close your door, lower the blinds, and pretend it's not happening, or is it incumbent upon you as a decent human being to try to help her?

    Iraq and Afghanistan are, of course, a far more complicated situation because the issue there is not one group of people committing genocide against another -- it's a political subset of the population there engaged in attacks against us. I'm not even going to speculate on the most effective way to address that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Honclfibr
    Are you in the habit of thanking French troops for the fact that you aren't British?
    Dude, you completely lost him there.


    --mark

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  10. #60
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    If you wanna be proud to be an American, learn and remember your history.
    +1.

    --mark

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  11. #61
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    Re: American holidays

    I'm not even going to go there anymore ...

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 07-05-12 at 04:06 PM.
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  13. #63
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFOtVAW2l8c&feature=youtube_gdata_player




    Depressing.

    --mark

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  14. #64
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by kb1 View Post
    I'm not even going to go there anymore ...
    KB for President!

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  15. #65
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    is this just a new trend after 9-11
    Bob Hope was entertaining troops on Christmas long before I was born, nothing new, WWI women made donuts for the troops

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  16. #66
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    I will tell you why i disagree with what you said. completely ignore what I say if i have missed what you really meant.
    1) not all of you have learned about it. I did go to college here and i know not all professors/teachers share those values and beliefs.
    2) they SHOULD be important to you. more important than me getting my citizenship. this part of who YOU are, this is YOUR history. You should know it inside - out and never forget it. and YOU should transfer it to your children as well
    3) "Say what you all want, there's very definite reasons 'foreigners' seek citizenship in the U.S" i dont think anyone has denied that or argued about it. I came here on my own decision and I have worked VERY hard in order to stay here legally.
    4) "As 'natural' citizens, we have a right to NOT remember what those are all about." - my opinion on that is the proud to be an American stickers and similar trades are plain fucking stupid. You did NOTHING in order to be an american than somebody giving birth to you here. Theres nothing to be proud about because you did not accomplish anything. You can be proud of living in America, or supporting America but you did nothing to be proud of being American. (by you clearly I mean people who believe in those trades). If you wanna be proud to be an American, learn and remember your history.

    thread is completely of track.
    Yup. You TOTALLY missed what I said. Not even close...

    The only things I'm gonna bother with commenting on at this point is what you say is #3. I KNOW how hard foreigners work to become citizens. That's my point. You didn't come here because the produce was better. You came here for a better life, PERIOD - as did the millions before you...

    Okay, I lied. Every American that went to public school did indeed 'learn it'. We wouldn't have been allowed to graduate otherwise. There's was thing in schools when I was growing up. It was called 'history class'. It was required to graduate from high school (not that I did)...

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  17. #67
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    Re: American holidays

    Why do you hate America?

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  18. #68
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    Re: American holidays


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  19. #69
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    Re: American holidays

    When I was a kid there were actual state requirements for how much each high school grad was theoretically supposed to have learned about social studies, including US history.

    I say theoretically supposed to learn because just like every other social policy ever enacted in any country anywhere on the earth ever, reality and what that policy was supposed to induce are not necessarily the same.

    It also used to be that you couldn't get into college after fucking off for four straight years through HS; you were supposed to have studied and paid attention, possibly even had a brain cell or two to rub together. Your experience demonstrates that some of that has ... changed. I honestly believe the only thing required to get you into college these days is money or the means to borrow it.

    Shop around. I bet if you look hard you might find one or two college undergrads that can give you a run for your money on the subject of US history. I bet they are there on a full or partial scholastic scholarship. Probably working nights to support what the scholarships don't. Probably burning both ends of the candle trying to make their lives better. Probably not completely unlike yourself.


    I guess you can summarize my post by saying: "GET OFF MY LAWN!!!"

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 07-05-12 at 09:06 PM.

  20. #70
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    Re: American holidays

    From the VA website "Many people confuse Memorial Day and Veterans Day. Memorial Day is a day for remembering and honoring military personnel who died in the service of their country, particularly those who died in battle or as a result of wounds sustained in battle. While those who died are also remembered, Veterans Day is the day set aside to thank and honor ALLthose who served honorably in the military - in wartime or peacetime. In fact, Veterans Day is largely intended to thank LIVING veterans for their service, to acknowledge that their contributions to our national security are appreciated, and to underscore the fact that all those who served - not only those who died - have sacrificed and done their duty."

    Oh and KB1 I have seen thermometers when I was overseas go up to 145+. That doesn't mean that is the correct temperature. The highest temp ever recorded on Earth was 136 in 1922 somewhere near the Sahara I know this because we looked it up and joked about it.

    I am not saying it wasn't hot over there but I do agree that ALOT of things are sensationalized by people who were NOT over there.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by markbvt View Post
    This opens up a whole other topic of discussion, namely the justness of involvement in a war and the US's place in the world. Many would argue that WW2 was the last "just" war, with the US reluctantly entering in order to help fight against an enemy with truly evil motives bent on world domination.

    Let's be honest here, the Nazis and the German war machine in general now seem straight out of a comic book or superhero movie. The US practically HAD to join the fight in order to protect itself from eventually having a much harder fight for its own survival.

    Each war since then has not been nearly as critical to this nation's survival or to the survival of the principles on which this nation was founded. But those principles do raise a moral question: can we really just stand by and watch as genocide is being committed in places like Kosovo, or do we have a moral obligation as the world's most powerful nation to try to do something about it? Let's reduce this question to a much more personal level: if you see your neighbor's wife being attacked and raped, is it right for you to just close your door, lower the blinds, and pretend it's not happening, or is it incumbent upon you as a decent human being to try to help her?

    Iraq and Afghanistan are, of course, a far more complicated situation because the issue there is not one group of people committing genocide against another -- it's a political subset of the population there engaged in attacks against us. I'm not even going to speculate on the most effective way to address that problem.

    --mark
    This starts to tread on the ground of the concept of "Responsibility to Protect", something the UN has been pushing for the past 10 years. It is an international norm (i.e. not law) that outlines that sovereign states should intervene if an offending state is not proactively protecting its own people and are perpetrating 1 of 4 crimes against non-combatants among the populace: war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and ethnic cleansing. The concept was created in the wake of the Rwandan Genocide, after every member state in the UN looked the other way and let 800,000 ethnic Tutsis die by the hands of a very well organized, ethnically driven Hutu government/militia.

    R2P was used most recently in the intervention in Libya, and has been used in Syria (although without military intervention thus far). Unfortunately there have also been MANY instances of war crimes, crimes against humanity and borderline genocide in which the UN has decided not to act at all, i.e. Darfur, Burma, the Congo, etc.

    The concept itself is a very interesting one, although there is a lot of opposition to it, especially considering the US does not want to act as the world police, but often gets called upon to lead these types of missions.

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  22. #72
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    Re: American holidays

    Thinking on it, this actually makes sense.
    The US is - in the grand scheme of things - very *very* young. And in its history, the pivotal events that it has been involved in that have directly impacted the rest of the world have largely been wars. Of course, the US has other pivotal events internally - the civil rights movement, abolition of slavery, but to many - and certainly as perceived internationally - the defining historical points of the US from its inception, have been wars.

    Couple that with an extremely militaristic culture - now, I'm not saying this idly. I've lived in a lot of countries, and by far the most overtly militaristic has been the US. I don't mean in its actions - I mean internally. Advertising, military recruitment in school, sponsorship of sports - logo clothing - all of it. Its surprisingly pervasive once you really do sit and observe it.
    This again, isn't really uprising. Given a nations defining moments, its easy to see why this has occurred.

    Now, what is sad - is that you simply cant actually *have* this conversation, without getting shouted down. America has *so* much more to celebrate other than its military actions - yet if you even suggest that maybe focus should shift, you are suddenly un-American. For us or Against us. Support our troops or get out. I'm sure you've seen it all. It is a rather worrying trend - that even discussion of this kind of thing should be stifled, forbidden.

    America has achieved frankly incredible things - hell, a man on moon! - but it is somewhat saddening to see us define ourselves in such a narrow way these days, as a country we could be so much more. Be proud of your scientific achievements, industrial, creative - yes, active duty military service is a nasty necessity, but as a difficult and often dangerous job, it still is just a job. It does warrant recognition - but perhaps not the worship that we currently lavish.

    As a result - its not surprising that for prettymuch every holiday an inordinate amount of military-centric language and visuals are used - but perhaps its something that we should try to refocus. America has great potential - on every level, not just in the theater of war..

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    Last edited by Wanderer; 07-06-12 at 04:46 AM.

  23. #73
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Honclfibr View Post
    Are you in the habit of thanking French troops for the fact that you aren't British?
    We paid them back. And I do thank them that we don't speak Eng.... nevermind...

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  24. #74
    Pescador de Ilusões Eddie's Avatar
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    Re: American holidays

    I agree with everything you said Jay.

    As a natural of the U.S. your constitutional rights are your birthrights whereas as someone who wasn't born in the U.S. you have to earn the right to vote and stand up right and say I am an American. I'd love to tell my family's story to everyone here, but I'll leave with the following: Growing up I allways wanted to come to the U.S., allways looked to the U.S. for equal rights, working capital and legal systems international policy and so forth. It was a no brainer to try to be part of something greater. Went to high school in a predominant Italian neighboorhood and was therefore introduced to main stream education. Though a minority I never took advantage of minority programs in college or otherwise. However at times I had to work twice as hard in school and otherwise. I never complained and to this day I do not accept being judge by standards other than mainstream. I wish I had served the military, but I went to college instead and outperformed many in my class. Still outperform many people in work context. But that is part of being an American: to strive for excellence, to honor your country by working hard and not taking shortcuts.

    I went to Washington D.C. once, and I gotta say....whatta trip. That and my citizenship ceremony were very emotional moments in my life. I'd love to take my family there for another lesson in American history and politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Actually, we ALL learned about it growing up. What people may or may not remember about it is a different story all together. We learned about ALL of it from the start of elementary school right up through the last days of high school. The key here is we didn't HAVE TO remember the details as someone applying for citizenship does. That's not a dig on anyone, it's just the way it is. You NEED to know this now in order to become a citizen. As 'natural' citizens, we have a right to NOT remember what those are all about. Not saying that's right...again, just the way it is...

    The simple fact that you or anybody from another country comes here and tries to earn citizenship speaks volumes about the state of the world and the U.S., regardless of current economical and political situations. Say what you all want, there's very definite reasons 'foreigners' seek citizenship in the U.S.. Again, not a dig on anyone. You can take any branch of my family tree and quickly learn that no matter which one you take, I'm only 2nd generation myself...

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    Last edited by Eddie; 07-06-12 at 06:38 AM.

  25. #75
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    Re: American holidays

    i think Wanderer has gotten it PERFECT! there are so many great things this country could celebrate about..
    I guess what I am trying to see is open your eyes and minds a bit more and stop being such war lovers. Theres such better accomplishments achieved from and in this country than killing people.

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