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American holidays

  1. #76
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    i think Wanderer has gotten it PERFECT! there are so many great things this country could celebrate about..
    I guess what I am trying to see is open your eyes and minds a bit more and stop being such war lovers. Theres such better accomplishments achieved from and in this country than killing people.
    It wasn't killing people that was the achievement. It was what was gained by the action that we are proud of.

    And like others have said...war IS our history.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    I guess what I am trying to see is open your eyes and minds a bit more and stop being such war lovers. Theres such better accomplishments achieved from and in this country than killing people.

    That is such a European comment. Even the warrior does not love war, we despise it, we do everything in our power to avoid it, it is a shallow mind that thinks America is a War loving country.

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    Re: American holidays

    I don't know man. I wouldn't call it "war lovers". As far as I am concerned the U.S. was summoned to got into duty in the face of injustice, hatred and failure by others to provide for basic human rights.

    Standing in the sidelines, just like what China and Russia is doing with regards to Syria as we type here is just a downright coward thing to do.

    So celebrate all the great political, technological and historics achievements of the U.S. But also celebrate the will to standup in the face of injustice. Now, I am not saying that everything is a military achiement either. I am not saying that we should ever humiliate the enemy because things like that only brings us down to their own level.

    Now as for military pride. I should observe that the terrorist strap bombs around their waist to harm and kill others. Whereas it is not uncommon for a U.S. soldier go go being their call of duty...say to jump on a grenade to protect his/her troop.

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    Last edited by Eddie; 07-06-12 at 08:02 AM.

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    Re: American holidays

    There are a grand total of 2 holidays that commemorate military service in one way or another. How is that being "war lovers"?

    Also there is a certain irony in Europeans telling Americans they are too militaristic, especially considering the massive implications of many European countries that were involved in (and still are) enforcement of colonialist military policies throughout the world even today.

    Getting involved in questionable wars is not even remotely exclusive to the US.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    I don't know man. I wouldn't call it "war lovers". As far as I am concerned the U.S. was summoned to got into duty in the face of injustice, hatred and failure by others to provide for basic human rights.

    Standing in the sidelines, just like what China and Russia is doing with regards to Syria as we type here is just a downright coward thing to do.

    So celebrate all the great political, technological and historics achievements of the U.S. But also celebrate the will to standup in the face of injustice. Now, I am not saying that everything is a military achiement either. I am not saying that we should ever humiliate the enemy because things like that only brings us down to their own level.

    But wouldn't those celebrations be consider poor taste, like bragging or "beating our own drum"? At least our "military celebration" has history. I do not consider memorial day or Veterans day to be "celebrations".


    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    Now as for military pride. I should observe that the terrorist strap bombs around their waist to harm and kill others. Whereas it is not uncommon for a U.S. soldier go go being their call of duty...say to jump on a grenade to protect his/her troop.
    Jumping on a grenade (which is NOT common) is not comparable to blowing up innocents.

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    Last edited by Doc; 07-06-12 at 08:11 AM.
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    This starts to tread on the ground of the concept of "Responsibility to Protect"...
    Exactly. It's obviously a very complicated situation, and I don't have an answer for it. Though I do feel a certain hypocrisy coming from the peace and love types who are all "help your neighbor" but then chant antiwar slogans when it comes time to use our military power to put a stop to genocide in another country.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Now, what is sad - is that you simply cant actually *have* this conversation, without getting shouted down. America has *so* much more to celebrate other than its military actions - yet if you even suggest that maybe focus should shift, you are suddenly un-American. For us or Against us. Support our troops or get out. I'm sure you've seen it all. It is a rather worrying trend - that even discussion of this kind of thing should be stifled, forbidden.

    America has achieved frankly incredible things - hell, a man on moon! - but it is somewhat saddening to see us define ourselves in such a narrow way these days, as a country we could be so much more. Be proud of your scientific achievements, industrial, creative - yes, active duty military service is a nasty necessity, but as a difficult and often dangerous job, it still is just a job. It does warrant recognition - but perhaps not the worship that we currently lavish.
    Agreed. Also consider that we spend more on our military budget than the next 20 highest-spending nations combined. Our military is part of who we are; and while some in the world think less of us for it, I think they're wrong.

    But the question that needs to be asked is how our military will evolve in a rapidly changing world. And given our cultural ties to our military, perhaps rather than trying to reduce its mission, we should consider expanding its mission. I'm going to make myself sound like a total nerd here, and maybe I am, but bear with me -- for those of you who are Star Trek fans, think about the type of organization that Starfleet is. I bring this up not to be a geek, but to point out that the deeper idea behind that particular nerd circus is that the world has gotten past its petty differences and has come together and formed an organization whose task is not only to provide a strong defense, but also to explore, to promote scientific advances, to engage in a humanitarian mission, etc. I would argue that our military could develop into something similar -- and yes, for the nerds in the room, that includes missions to the moon and to Mars.

    Call me crazy, but IMO we need to think bigger.

    --mark

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    But wouldn't those celebrations be consider poor taste, like bragging or "beating our own drum"? At least our "military celebration" has history. I do not consider memorial day or Veterans day to be "celebrations".
    Sorry Doc...but I lost you there my friend....


    ....nevermind I get it. Agreed veteran and memorial days a events of rememberance. Agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Jumping on a grenade (which is NOT common) is not comparable to blowing up innocents.
    A valid analogy from where I stand Doc. I am basically highlighting the terrorist attitude, an honorable act from the terrorist perpective to what we rightly call an Act of Valor. Two far from things I agree. Yet, that's what set us apart from them.

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    Last edited by Eddie; 07-06-12 at 08:18 AM.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    That is such a European comment. Even the warrior does not love war, we despise it, we do everything in our power to avoid it, it is a shallow mind that thinks America is a War loving country.
    lets not get into the wars that America has been involved for absolutely no reason. to this day nobody can give a logic explanation of wtf you guys still doing in Irad. also Sadam was killed how long ago...? Bin Laden...? whats the point exactly of still having troops over there?

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    lets not get into the wars that America has been involved for absolutely no reason. to this day nobody can give a logic explanation of wtf you guys still doing in Irad. also Sadam was killed how long ago...? Bin Laden...? whats the point exactly of still having troops over there?
    I hope you are kidding.

    The situation in the middle east prevents us from pulling out quickly. We have to rebuild what was destroyed and try to build up their own force to protect the public. If we pulled out now all would be lost and we would have unfinished business in the form of international relations there. It might be best explained in the terms of "leave things how you found them or better".

    Pretty bold statement to make when you obviously know nothing about it.

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  10. #85
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    lets not get into the wars that America has been involved for absolutely no reason. to this day nobody can give a logic explanation of wtf you guys still doing in Irad. also Sadam was killed how long ago...? Bin Laden...? whats the point exactly of still having troops over there?
    It amazes me that people still ask these types of questions. Do you really understand nothing about power? In particular the instability that results from a power vacuum? Suddenly pulling out would not do anyone any favors -- not us and not the Iraqi or Afghan people. It would just create chaos. These things need to be done in a careful and orderly fashion.

    --mark

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  11. #86
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    Re: American holidays

    you had no business being there in the first place.. and all of a sudden? do you know how long you have actually been there?

    and this is already few years old: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lpZweVSgM

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    Last edited by tsorfas; 07-06-12 at 08:36 AM.

  12. #87
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    you had no business being there in the first place.. and all of a sudden? do you know how long you have actually been there?
    I can not post an intelligent reply to this post with a level head. This is like debating red sox vs. yankees with a person from colorado.
    That is like me saying...why the hell did your country kill it's economy? Your ancestors would be disappointed.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    I can not post an intelligent reply to this post with a level head. This is like debating red sox vs. yankees with a person from colorado.
    That is like me saying...why the hell did your country kill it's economy? Your ancestors would be disappointed.
    I can list you 50 years of mistakes both by the public and the politicias that killed the economy. My ancestors should be very disappointed.
    Everything they built 2000 years ago we destroyed in 100. I can tell you the companies and the individuals who lead us where we are today.
    Your debate abour yanks vs sox from a guy from colorado is accurate but we are just conversating at this point. Not trying to change anybodys mind.
    but my opinion is unfortunately is that Americans will believe and follow (blinded) everything said to them after 9/11. and this will be used FOREVER, once it is kinda overused something else will come along.
    War is your history so dont get offended when you are being called War lovers. 200 years of history over 10 MAJOR wars. there are countries with 3000 years of history with less wars than that.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    you had no business being there in the first place.. and all of a sudden? do you know how long you have actually been there?
    So you're saying that because you think we had no business being there in the first place, we should now leave it an unstable powderkeg of a mess? There's some interesting logic...

    --mark

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    I can list you 50 years of mistakes both by the public and the politicias that killed the economy. My ancestors should be very disappointed.
    Ready.
    Set.
    Go.

    And no using online sources. You should know your countries history.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by markbvt View Post
    So you're saying that because you think we had no business being there in the first place, we should now leave it an unstable powderkeg of a mess? There's some interesting logic...

    --mark
    so going there and creating the chaos and the mess is a good enough reason to not leave now?
    do you know what comes after the army? educators, doctors, builders, HELP. Theres still nothing but soldiers there. the reconstruction has not started and realistically it never will.. maybe some investors soon...

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    but my opinion is unfortunately is that Americans will believe and follow (blinded) everything said to them after 9/11. and this will be used FOREVER, once it is kinda overused something else will come along.
    War is your history so dont get offended when you are being called War lovers. 200 years of history over 10 MAJOR wars. there are countries with 3000 years of history with less wars than that.

    Trying so hard right not to come back to this thread...so hard.

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    so going there and creating the chaos and the mess is a good enough reason to not leave now?
    do you know what comes after the army? educators, doctors, builders, HELP. Theres still nothing but soldiers there. the reconstruction has not started and realistically it never will.. maybe some investors soon...
    When you cook your dinner and eat it...do you leave your dishes on the counter each time and just buy new ones? Or do you scrape off the scraps, put them in the dishwasher, start it up, and then put them away in the proper place?

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    I can list you 50 years of mistakes both by the public and the politicias that killed the economy. My ancestors should be very disappointed.
    Everything they built 2000 years ago we destroyed in 100. I can tell you the companies and the individuals who lead us where we are today.
    Your debate abour yanks vs sox from a guy from colorado is accurate but we are just conversating at this point. Not trying to change anybodys mind.
    but my opinion is unfortunately is that Americans will believe and follow (blinded) everything said to them after 9/11. and this will be used FOREVER, once it is kinda overused something else will come along.
    War is your history so dont get offended when you are being called War lovers. 200 years of history over 10 MAJOR wars. there are countries with 3000 years of history with less wars than that.
    Again a "European" mind set. But don't take that the wrong way. You compare the US to countries much older with far less war but they also had far less of other things too. I am not saying either is the right way but I am not saying it is wrong either. History shaped this country into the land of the Free and Home of the Brave because of our struggles and our stance to help others in their struggles.

    Democracy is a young idea, How did the poleis work out for your country?

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    Last edited by Doc; 07-06-12 at 09:04 AM. Reason: sorry, thought you were Egyptian...
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    so going there and creating the chaos and the mess is a good enough reason to not leave now?
    do you know what comes after the army? educators, doctors, builders, HELP. Theres still nothing but soldiers there. the reconstruction has not started and realistically it never will.. maybe some investors soon...
    Did you miss the news that we've pulled out of Iraq?

    As for Afghanistan, that's a much tougher nut to crack. Are we supposed to just sit back and let the Taliban retake control? Attempts have been made at reconstruction, but that place is a mess... and has been for a long time.

    --mark

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  21. #96
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    Ready.
    Set.
    Go.

    And no using online sources. You should know your countries history.
    online sources? My family was politicaly active (im so against this bs) for the past 20 years. you take history (greek history) from 4-12 grade in Greece. However of course on a bad education system theres still people who dont know shit about our history and its sad but it is reality. I personally loved history so I just paid attention in that class.
    if you want names the politicians are: Papandreou (father and son), Simitis, Karamanlis (also father and son), Akis, Tsoxatzopoulos...
    Businessmen who run companies that controlled a lot of the federal organizations: S. Kokalis, Mitsotakis, Psomiadis.
    Major companies who ran everything: intracom, OTE, DEH, AFM.
    Simitis (prime minester of greece 96-04) is the idiot who LIED about our economic status so we can enter the EURO, which clearly was the finishing bullet to our economy. Tons of money was stolen from fake programs through the politicians reffered about. such as the huge fires that took place in the summers of 05 and 07 who burned down over 30% of the Greek forests. Estimated "help" from teh Euripian Union was calculated about 350million euros of which about 600,000e made it to the public.
    Please dont start a debate about something YOU dont know nothing about it. I lived there, I was active and educated. I predicted 2012 when I was 16 years old and i left when i was 18 because I knew exactly where we were heading. I dont just open my mouth and talk shit. If I dont know something I listen to those who know more about it than me.
    We can talk about economic disasters all day if you want but this isnt what this topic is about.

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    Just Registered Doc's Avatar
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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    so going there and creating the chaos and the mess is a good enough reason to not leave now?
    do you know what comes after the army? educators, doctors, builders, HELP. Theres still nothing but soldiers there. the reconstruction has not started and realistically it never will.. maybe some investors soon...
    Oh you are so pissing me off if you think soldiers only fight. I have done plenty of humanitarian aid missions as a soldier, helping build roads and schools, providing medical care, working with local governments, training police and foreign military... stop being so close minded about what the military does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    oh and to truly have freedom of speech we ALL have a duty to LISTEN to one anothers speech...

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Please dont start a debate about something YOU dont know nothing about it.

    Pure gold.

    I love hypocrites.

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    Re: American holidays

    i dont get how you can get pride and offense in the same thing. You said WAR is your History. so why so upset if called war lovers.
    if you wanna vise versa the whole thing the Spartans were 100% a war based civilization. thats ALL their history was. No mathematics, no physics no democrasy. just plain WAR. saves Greece several times against major enemies although Greece was not exactly united at the time.
    Very similar to US history and war policy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post

    Pure gold.

    I love hypocrites.
    didnt expect a better response anyways

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    Re: American holidays

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Oh you are so pissing me off if you think soldiers only fight. I have done plenty of humanitarian aid missions as a soldier, helping build roads and schools, providing medical care, working with local governments, training police and foreign military... stop being so close minded about what the military does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    oh and to truly have freedom of speech we ALL have a duty to LISTEN to one anothers speech...
    I am sorry Doc but I have yet to see anything like that from my short knowledge on what soldiers too. I have not served the army ( Greeek or American ) and i dont plan on doing so.

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