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Basement Waterproofing Options

  1. #1
    Fast is contagious JettaJayGLS's Avatar
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    Basement Waterproofing Options


    I have a field stone basement. The walls don't really leak that much, water isn't an issue from rain. When everything thaws in the spring, and the water table rises, I get a constant flood from the ground up. It starts in the sump pump hole and eventually spreads around the entire basement. The water level never rises more than a skim coat, my current sump pump can handle it, the water just needs to skim over the basement to get to the pump. The sump pump I have is very crudely installed and has no back-up. This was fine while I was there to monitor it, but not any more.

    I contacted two companies for quotes to install a permanent sump pump with back-up, trench the perimeter of the interior, and add waterproof covering to the walls that drains into the trench. The quotes are very similar, the sump pump installs are very similar, the wall coatings are very similar, but the trenching systems are different. The cost difference between the two is not enough to sway me to either one, so I'd like some input on which system may be better.

    Both systems trench the entire perimeter of my basement and direct it to a sump pump. Both systems pump the water out of the house and 15-20 feet away to a basin.

    1) Waterguard - they dig down about 6 inches or so, just enough for the height of the product, and back fill around it with crushed stone and then cement it all in. The product has holes in the bottom for water to enter from the ground, and vents in the back that integrate with their wall covering for any wall drippings to find their way in to. Its a nifty product, but pretty close to the surface.




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mY1...ature=youtu.be

    2) 18 inch deep trench with a PVC drain pipe at the bottom. Covered with crushed stone and then cemented over at the top. They also have a similar apparatus that goes against the walls to integrate with the wall covering for wall drippings.



    Thoughts? I like product 1, but I like that #2 goes down 18 inches. Anyone have experience with either?

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    suburban ghetto living... black's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    so question.. would you in the future ever get weeping from the walls? that trickle down to the floor? would a french drain help in tht situation ( not sure if it would help in current situation all I know is that my basment never leaked like that before is a common phrase)

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    hmmmm......

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    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    I'm not sure either of those will work unless they get the placement perfect. Route them to a good sump, properly installed. Sometimes the best thing with water is to let it flow. Give it a trench from source to sump.

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    Fast is contagious JettaJayGLS's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by black View Post
    so question.. would you in the future ever get weeping from the walls? that trickle down to the floor? would a french drain help in tht situation ( not sure if it would help in current situation all I know is that my basment never leaked like that before is a common phrase)
    Its possible, but both systems have waterproof wall coverings that direct any wall weeping into the trench.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I'm not sure either of those will work unless they get the placement perfect. Route them to a good sump, properly installed. Sometimes the best thing with water is to let it flow. Give it a trench from source to sump.
    Both systems trench the full perimeter of the basement and all flow into the sump pump. Sorry if that wasn't clear before! Sump pump is an integral part of this operation. Only reason I didn't spend many words explaining them is because both offerings are nearly identical in the sump pump department.

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    Last edited by JettaJayGLS; 01-07-20 at 07:01 PM.
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    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by JettaJayGLS View Post
    Its possible, but both systems have waterproof wall coverings that direct any wall weeping into the trench.



    Both systems trench the full perimeter of the basement and all flow into the sump pump. Sorry if that wasn't clear before! Sump pump is an integral part of this operation. Only reason I didn't spend many words explaining them is because both offerings are nearly identical in the sump pump department.
    Ok so both should work, but to me cementing it in sounds like a recipe for failure. Both seem to do that, so not sure. I'd go with the crushed rock and pipe solution. It's tried and tested. It's deeper, and should start working sooner and handle a lot more volume

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    If you are seeing hydraulic pressure buildup enough to seep through the basement floor, surface drainage isn't the answer. I'd suggest going with the under-slab arrangement shown in the 2nd pic.

    I was getting water buildup under my slab which would eventually start pushing through the floor any time during enough rain or a decent spring thaw. I contacted a company called Rescon to install under-slab drainage over to a sump pit in my utility closet and haven't had an issue since.

    When it comes to water, there is no blocking it. Only redirecting it. I say this because, IMO, you should consider whether the wall products are an upsale or are actually necessary in your application. Based on your description, it sounds like an unnecessary expense.

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    Fast is contagious JettaJayGLS's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by butcher bergs View Post
    If you are seeing hydraulic pressure buildup enough to seep through the basement floor, surface drainage isn't the answer. I'd suggest going with the under-slab arrangement shown in the 2nd pic.

    I was getting water buildup under my slab which would eventually start pushing through the floor any time during enough rain or a decent spring thaw. I contacted a company called Rescon to install under-slab drainage over to a sump pit in my utility closet and haven't had an issue since.

    When it comes to water, there is no blocking it. Only redirecting it. I say this because, IMO, you should consider whether the wall products are an upsale or are actually necessary in your application. Based on your description, it sounds like an unnecessary expense.
    So both systems are under the slab and both go around the entire perimeter and direct the water to the sump pump. #1 is just a few inches under, #2 is 18 inches under. I updated my first post with a picture of system 1 during install.
    The wall systems are relatively minor compared to the trench. They'll allow me to put up walls and insulate the basement and not worry too much about the insulation getting wet if the walls happen to weep (which they aren't right now).

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    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    My mistake. I missed the words "of the interior" in your 1st post.

    The attached pic is what Rescon installed for drain channel in my house. The top of that square drain is roughly 7" down from the top surface of the slab, FWIW. This drain connects to a similarly-designed drain channel that has the same "mudflap" extension as seen in your first couple pics.

    I liked the square drain because a cleanout port (located opposite corner of the house) was part of the installation. This detail is important to me in the sense that I can say with certainty silt will eventually migrate through the stone and into the drain pipe. Having that cleanout available is peace of mind for me.


    The usage of schedule 40 pipe (from the 2nd proposal) in this particular application seems like overkill to me and a far less effective option, IMO. There is comparatively more material being removed and added as well as the likelihood that a cleanout is not available. Sure, it will be a dozen (or more) years before that drain becomes an issue but that's kinda the point, it will eventually become an issue if there isn't a method to flush the pipe.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Basement Waterproofing Options-img_20200107_202943512-1-jpg  

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    Lifer burnham's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    I'd go with the pipe. If you ever want to frame walls in the basement, it would be nice to be able to nail the bottom plate to the floor.
    With the pipe installation, you have enough concrete to nail into.

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    My previous house had the interior perimeter drain as shown in the first picture. It never really worked all that well, simply because the concrete floor is not perfectly flat nor sloped towards the perimeter of the foundation; the low spot is usually in the middle of the basement. That said, I never dealt with water coming up from underneath the foundation, I always had water intrusion between the add-on foundation and the below-grade windows in that house, and drainage on the outside would have taken care of that much better than the interior perimeter drains.

    I guess I don't understand how you have flooding if the water starts rising in the sump, as you said. The sump pump should take care of rising water with a float.

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    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post

    I guess I don't understand how you have flooding if the water starts rising in the sump, as you said. The sump pump should take care of rising water with a float.
    I didn't get that part either.

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Could be hydraulic pressure in one area of the floor is higher than the area the sump is in. A swell in the water table doesn't necessarily equate to a level amount of water rising in all areas.

    Ledge, for example, could be acting a dam beneath the slab and directing the water into a pocket.

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    is not wearing pants Point37's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    how deep is your sump pit currently?...what kind of sump pump do you have?...submersible one with a float switch on a wire or non submersible one where the motor is on top of a pedestal and the float is on a vertical rod?...i'm guessing the pump style may not be correct for the situation or the pit is not deep enough to take the water before if gets up to the floor level...i always suggest going with the vertical rod float pump style cause i have had the wire float switches hang up in pits that aren't big enough and they don't kick on or get stuck on...i would go with the second option over the first but i would also lay filter fabric in the bottom of the trench then the stone base then the pipe then the rest of the stone then fold the filter fabric over the stone and then the concrete...you may not have to worry too much about fines migrating up but its cheap...i have a perforated drain pipe around the exterior of my foundation which my downspouts and sump pump are tied into...bedded in stone and wrapped in filter fabric...it pulls in a lot of the water before the pump actually has to kick on if at all

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    Fast is contagious JettaJayGLS's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by burnham View Post
    I'd go with the pipe. If you ever want to frame walls in the basement, it would be nice to be able to nail the bottom plate to the floor.
    With the pipe installation, you have enough concrete to nail into.
    Good point. I do want to make it a glorified storage room with walls and want to insulate it too. I figured I could get by with more, shorter nails on the bottom plate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I didn't get that part either.
    This is how I see it, but I'm just a dude that didn't stay in a holiday inn last night: The sump pump hole is the lowest part of the basement by far. As the water table rises, water reaches the sump pump hole first and slowly trickles into it. The pump clears the water continuously, lets say the water rises high enough to trigger the pump every two minutes - it comes in very slowly. The water never brims over the edge of the sump pump hole.

    Eventually, the water table rises up above the level of the basement floor/top of the sump pump hole. Now the water has a million access points into the house all along the perimeter of the basement where the slab meets the walls. Now I have water coming in from many different points of the basement (there are a few weaker ones for sure) and it skims across the basement floor until it finds the sump pump hole. The sump pump hold still never brims over the top. The pump runs every 30 seconds now and continuously clears the water. If i were to direct the water to the sump pump hole below the level of the basement floor, it should prevent any water from coming in...at least in theory.

    Its possible that the water could come through a seam in the slab in the middle, but the basement is very very small, only 64 feet in perimeter (14x18), so I would imagine this is very unlikely (as did the folks trying to sell me the systems, who would clearly want to do more work).

    Does this make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Point37 View Post
    how deep is your sump pit currently?...what kind of sump pump do you have?...submersible one with a float switch on a wire or non submersible one where the motor is on top of a pedestal and the float is on a vertical rod?...i'm guessing the pump style may not be correct for the situation or the pit is not deep enough to take the water before if gets up to the floor level...i always suggest going with the vertical rod float pump style cause i have had the wire float switches hang up in pits that aren't big enough and they don't kick on or get stuck on...i would go with the second option over the first but i would also lay filter fabric in the bottom of the trench then the stone base then the pipe then the rest of the stone then fold the filter fabric over the stone and then the concrete...you may not have to worry too much about fines migrating up but its cheap...i have a perforated drain pipe around the exterior of my foundation which my downspouts and sump pump are tied into...bedded in stone and wrapped in filter fabric...it pulls in a lot of the water before the pump actually has to kick on if at all
    Sump pit is about 18 inches. I have a submersible one with a vertical rod float switch. I have it sitting on a smooth tile in the bottom of the pit. It doesn't get too much in there but I peak at it and clean it out every so often.

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Ah, if the water table outside of your curtain drain rises above grade, what stops it from flowing in right over the drain? That's why I was concerned with cementing it under. Nevermind. I see both systems have that platic piec to allow water to flow down the walls.

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Ah, if the water table outside of your curtain drain rises above grade, what stops it from flowing in right over the drain? That's why I was concerned with cementing it under.
    I think both systems rely on any overflow to make its way into the drain in two ways.

    1) Both systems shield the floor right at the seam of the foundation and the walls, and this is where 99% of the water is coming into my basement. They direct this water into the drain from the top.
    2) If the water table were to rise 3 feet up the walls and I had weeping all over, the waterproof covering would then direct the water into the drain from the top. Both systems cover the walls with waterproof material that integrates into the top of the drain.

    System 1:


    System 2:

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    Last edited by JettaJayGLS; 01-08-20 at 12:52 PM.
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    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    I like option 2. My argument for it is the deeper you catch and start to channel the water the better. The pipe system works, no reason not to use it. So why bother with the ~6" deep system.

    My wife has a home with a similar situation. The basement is effectively useless for storage because it weeps so much. Her problem is the walls though. The house is on an incline and the basement is right in the flow of the water table. The up-hill wall is almost always wet. Sometimes water will "pee" right out of a hole left from a cross-tie. She has a perimeter drain system like you describe (option 2) except hers is not capped with cement. It is just an open troff of crushed stone. It usually works very well. When I met her there was no check valve on the drain pipe from the sump pump. So ~10% of what the pump expelled when it cycled would drain right back after it turned off. That was an easy fix. The second problem is the pump cycles often. (Although not every 30 seconds often! That is a lot!) The sump hole is crude; just a 5 gal pail with holes drilled buried in the corner. It is not very deep and I think it cycles too often because of it. One of these days I'd like to put in a proper sump with a taller float on the pump. The pump on that house is so critical that we keep a backup new in box on hand at all times. When that house looses power in any kind of wet weather (ie in a storm!) the basement will flood in a mater of hours.

    Anyway. My moral here is that the 2nd system you describe is known to work well. I'd think getting the water redirected starting ~18" under the slab would be better than ~6".

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    Lifer typeone's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    i don't have anything in-depth to add but my house is located on a piece of property you probably could not build on today due to how wet the eastern side is. we have an easement from a fire pond across the road that compounds the issue ... option #2 was put in place long ago, along with a fully built out basement, and have zero issues. the system works excellent.

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I like option 2. My argument for it is the deeper you catch and start to channel the water the better. The pipe system works, no reason not to use it. So why bother with the ~6" deep system.

    My wife has a home with a similar situation. The basement is effectively useless for storage because it weeps so much. Her problem is the walls though. The house is on an incline and the basement is right in the flow of the water table. The up-hill wall is almost always wet. Sometimes water will "pee" right out of a hole left from a cross-tie. She has a perimeter drain system like you describe (option 2) except hers is not capped with cement. It is just an open troff of crushed stone. It usually works very well. When I met her there was no check valve on the drain pipe from the sump pump. So ~10% of what the pump expelled when it cycled would drain right back after it turned off. That was an easy fix. The second problem is the pump cycles often. (Although not every 30 seconds often! That is a lot!) The sump hole is crude; just a 5 gal pail with holes drilled buried in the corner. It is not very deep and I think it cycles too often because of it. One of these days I'd like to put in a proper sump with a taller float on the pump. The pump on that house is so critical that we keep a backup new in box on hand at all times. When that house looses power in any kind of wet weather (ie in a storm!) the basement will flood in a mater of hours.

    Anyway. My moral here is that the 2nd system you describe is known to work well. I'd think getting the water redirected starting ~18" under the slab would be better than ~6".
    Thanks! I'm leaning towards number 2 now, its also marginally cheaper and the guy really drove home his warranty on any water getting in. Going down 18 inches is also what the guy drove home and I think it is my best bet to "beat the water table" if that is at all possible.

    I think my current sump pump runs so often because the hole is so small, and the pump is small. If you doubled the size of the hole and doubled the size of the pump (right now it runs with like 6 inches of water) then it would run way way less often. I do have the one way valve at least though!

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    is not wearing pants Point37's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    18" deep pit isn't bad depending on the typical ground water level where you live...where does the pump discharge to?...far enough that the water isn't just cycling back under the house?...do you have any catch basins near your house you could discharge close to that are downgrade from where the pump pipe exits the house?...sounds like the pump isn't keeping up with the water if it's coming in around the seam of the floor and the wall...or the foundation was poured on something other than crushed stone...def try a bigger pump...you may even be able to dig the pit deeper and sleeve it with a piece of large diameter pvc pipe with holes drilled in it...rent a saw and make it wider if you have to

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Point37 View Post
    18" deep pit isn't bad...where does the pump discharge to?...far enough that the water isn't just cycling back under the house?...do you have any catch basins near your house you could discharge close to that are downgrade from where the pump pipe exits the house?...sounds like the pump isn't keeping up with the water if it's coming in around the seam of the floor and the wall...or the foundation was poured on something other than crushed stone
    Right now I'm putting it into the sewer....that has to stop.

    Quote for system 2 has it discharging 20 feet from the house in a buried bubble pot with check valves and frost protection.
    System 2 also says they will "install drain ports where needed (for clean out)." So that's another risk mitigated!

    Here's system 2 for those of you that have 13 minutes to spare, ha!

    https://youtu.be/evTiBy8nxDM

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    Last edited by JettaJayGLS; 01-08-20 at 01:58 PM.
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    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    That seems like the ticket.

    That sump makes me wet. Sealed top?! And look how deep it is!
    I have to go sit down for a minute.
    Nothing like the half-ass buried drywall bucket in my wife's basement!

    I'm considering putting a sump in my basement at one point. I only get a little bit of water in near the bulkhead every other year or so. Otherwise my basement is very dry. But I'd like to never see the water and have something to dump condensate into as well. (I have a heat-pump water heater that generates condensate.) Those clean outs give you that. Slick.

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    Fast is contagious JettaJayGLS's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    That seems like the ticket.

    That sump makes me wet. Sealed top?! And look how deep it is!
    I have to go sit down for a minute.
    Nothing like the half-ass buried drywall bucket in my wife's basement!

    I'm considering putting a sump in my basement at one point. I only get a little bit of water in near the bulkhead every other year or so. Otherwise my basement is very dry. But I'd like to never see the water and have something to dump condensate into as well. (I have a heat-pump water heater that generates condensate.) Those clean outs give you that. Slick.
    I know that feeling all too well.

    Right now I have a cheap little dehumidifier that I drain into the pump for my AC condensate, but that means I gotta stick a small little 5 foot square cause if I run too long of a hose it doesn't actually drain. I had them quote me on a dehumidifier unit but everything they have is overkill for my tiny basement. To the tune of $1,300.

    If you wanted to just do a sump install, I think he said that would be $1,850 for the sump, bucket, and exterior drain pot.

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    is not wearing pants Point37's Avatar
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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    i guess i'm wondering what a bubble pot is?...some type of perforated leeching structure or a drywell?...and by drain ports does he mean a wye off the exterior drain pipe up to just below the surface of the ground buried with a cap you can dig up and take off to run a hose down to flush if needed?

    edit: just saw the drain ports on the video on the interior perimeter drain...are those threaded or do they just pop off?...that guys set up looks good

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    Re: Basement Waterproofing Options

    If the water table is a problem at your basement, 20' away doesn't seem anywhere NEAR far enough to actually keep it away from the house or not be fighting the problem itself?

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