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Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

  1. #26
    Freestyle Street Rider Brian_C6's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.


    Originally posted by bigred875
    OMG..brian Where to start...your theories have more holes then swiss cheese.....bah not even gonna bother... All you do is spout the talking points man....

    100K is MIDDLE CLASS!!!!!
    - Not according to your Government. 100K is considered wealthy. Remember, there are 49 other states and not everyone in this country is paid as they are in New England.

    "While the government has a definition for being poor (in 1999 it was income of less than $17,029 for a family of four), it does not have a definition for being middle-class. However, the U.S. Census Bureau does keep statistics on household income distribution--right now the median is $40,816, an historic high--which allows economists to come up with their own definitions of middle-class. One formula is to find a range between about the 30th percentile of income and the 80th--which would make those households earning between about $30,000 and $75,000 a year middle-class. Others, with a flusher view of things, say that the formula should be about three times the poverty rate for the low end and seven times the poverty rate for the high end, putting households with between $50,000 and $120,000 of yearly income (at $120,000 many tax credits start to phase out) into the middle class."

    Originally posted by bigred875
    btw - way to start a thread then start arguing with people...lol

    I guess you really did this with an open mind trying to learn something
    - I started the thread because I wanted to see what people actually thought aside from the war. Something wrong with speaking my thoughts? And why is it everytime you debate government with someone, you think you are the all knowing and if someone disagrees, they're wrong? You realize people have differences of opinion and it has nothing to do with right & wrong... right?

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  2. #27
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    By your formula - or the formula you posted - again, I say that my family epitomizes every definition of middle class...

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  3. #28
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Brian_C6
    - And why is it everytime you debate government with someone, you think you are the all knowing and if someone disagrees, they're wrong? You realize people have differences of opinion and it has nothing to do with right & wrong... right?
    I stated cold hard numbers that I actually sat down and figured out, and you STILL disagreed. You should follow your own word...

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  4. #29
    Freestyle Street Rider Brian_C6's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Stoneman
    I stated cold hard numbers that I actually sat down and figured out, and you STILL disagreed. You should follow your own word...
    What? What are you talking about? I agreed with you.... I tried to back you up and I even explain why certain things in your life have become easier for you. Interest Rates, Real Estate, Mortgage, etc. What is good for you, isn't necessarily good for everyone though.

    Are you talking about middle class taxes? Yea, it goes far beyond what you get back at the end of the year. If they take 3% more out your paycheck every week and get back 2% more (from previous year) did you really make out? You're paying more but getting back more. It's a spin.

    Check this out.... here are some hard facts.


    Brian

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  5. #30
    Lifer odduc's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Brian_C6,

    I respectfully disagree with ALL of your political views.

    That is all.

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    LRRS#167

  6. #31
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Brian_C6
    What? What are you talking about? I agreed with you.... I tried to back you up and I even explain why certain things in your life have become easier for you. Interest Rates, Real Estate, Mortgage, etc. What is good for you, isn't necessarily good for everyone though.

    Are you talking about middle class taxes? Yea, it goes far beyond what you get back at the end of the year. If they take 3% more out your paycheck every week and get back 2% more (from previous year) did you really make out? You're paying more but getting back more. It's a spin.

    Brian
    You AGREED? I told you what we actually sat down and figured out. You tossed out a number of reasons refuting (sp?) every one of 'em...

    And I don't buy into that image you posted. Not for a minute. Not when my wife & I spent hours going through piles of personal financials that went back four or five years. I'll believe the numbers that WE sat down and calculated. Not images of charts jacked from the internet. Gimme twenty minutes, and I can come up with a pretty convincing image too...

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  7. #32
    Member phreak's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Brian_C6

    - Funny, I got less back this year than last. Maybe you're in a higher tax bracket. Wealthy = 100K+/year per household... so maybe you fall into that catagory that is getting richer now, not poorer.
    tax refund amount is not a indication of a tax cut amount.

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  8. #33
    Lifer SEVENSGT's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by phreak
    tax refund amount is not a indication of a tax cut amount.


    exactly, it's more what % of you gross you get to keep

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  9. #34
    The big cheese Cheese*'s Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    I do have to give it to the conservative masterminds. They are pretty smart guys.
    Give everyone some "extra" tax money( which for most people result in a few hundred bucks, still enough to buy plenty of votes) because liberals waste incredible amounts of money and high tax rates aren't needed. Meanwhile lower tax rates for the rich and super rich significantly resulting in tens of thousands to millions of dollars in tax "relief" for the rich. This essentially regresses the tax system and shifts the tax burden to the middle and lower classes. Finally when it comes to paying for various programs..... The excuse for cutting funding is they don't have the money to pay for them!!! Of course all of these programs that funding is cut from, and programs that are never implemented that should be to begin with all help the lower to middle classes most. Public education, Healthcare being among the ones that bother me the most.

    I can say for me and most of my friends my life has gotten progessively worse since Bush has been in office.

    PS: An excellent book to read about he American class system and America's wealth is titled The New Class Society by Robert Perrucci and Earl Wysong. Gives an excellent picture of the true American class system and the interests of the classes.

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  10. #35
    Freestyle Street Rider Brian_C6's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by SEVENSGT
    exactly, it's more what % of you gross you get to keep
    Originally posted by phreak
    tax refund amount is not a indication of a tax cut amount.
    - My point exactly. Read my newest post (above). You're taking my statement out of context. I agree with you... look at the numbers I found.

    Brian

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    Last edited by Brian_C6; 10-08-04 at 12:20 AM.

  11. #36
    Freestyle Street Rider Brian_C6's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Stoneman

    And I don't buy into that image you posted. Not for a minute. Not when my wife & I spent hours going through piles of personal financials that went back four or five years. I'll believe the numbers that WE sat down and calculated. Not images of charts jacked from the internet. Gimme twenty minutes, and I can come up with a pretty convincing image too...
    Sorry... I realize the internet can be loaded with crap. I posted (what I believed) were hard numbers after some research. Why don't you spend some time backing your statements? I'd be interested in finding out what you come across. Rather than diagree and call me out, show me some research (beyond your situation). You tell me the numbers worked out for you, but they didn't work for me. How is that possible and show me what I'm missing?

    Brian

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  12. #37
    Lifer bentbryan's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Cheese


    I can say for me and most of my friends my life has gotten progessively worse since Bush has been in office.
    That statement is so absurd I have a hard time even responding to it. Yeah, maybe life has become progressively worse for you and yours...if you happen to be an Islamofacist!

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  13. #38
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Brian_C6
    Sorry... I realize the internet can be loaded with crap. I posted (what I believed) were hard numbers after some research. Why don't you spend some time backing your statements? I'd be interested in finding out what you come across. Rather than diagree and call me out, show me some research (beyond your situation). You tell me the numbers worked out for you, but they didn't work for me. How is that possible and show me what I'm missing?

    Brian
    I backed my statements AND I gave you hard, solid numbers. The only numbers I didn't give you was my salary and how much my wife makes. The only way to prove any of that to you is to give you access to our personal finances. No offense, but that ain't happening...

    And why would I CARE about researching beyond my situation? I don't care beyond my situation. It works better NOW for my family than it did say, 4 years ago. That, THAT right there is all I'm concerned about...

    As I said, I keep a higher percentage of MY paycheck now. I get back a higher percentage of my federal taxes every year. My insurance went down while coverage for my family went up (although that may have more to do at the state level. Shaheen REALLY fucked that up when she was Governor)...

    As for YOUR situation, maybe you should hire my wife to take a look at your current tax situation. Seriously. You not making out any better may also have more to do at the state level. I dunno. I don't care. It works well now for me and a number of people I know. It doesn't work for you. Oh well...

    BTW-Not only did I NOT vote for Bush (didn't vote for Gore, either), but I WON'T be casting a vote in the upcoming election, either. No thanks. I don't wanna have anything to do with either of these boobs being in office. But under the current admininstration, MY FAMILY'S pockets HAVE gotten thicker...

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  14. #39
    Freestyle Street Rider Brian_C6's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Stoneman
    I backed my statements AND I gave you hard, solid numbers. The only numbers I didn't give you was my salary and how much my wife makes. The only way to prove any of that to you is to give you access to our personal finances. No offense, but that ain't happening...

    And why would I CARE about researching beyond my situation? I don't care beyond my situation. It works better NOW for my family than it did say, 4 years ago. That, THAT right there is all I'm concerned about...

    As I said, I keep a higher percentage of MY paycheck now. I get back a higher percentage of my federal taxes every year. My insurance went down while coverage for my family went up (although that may have more to do at the state level. Shaheen REALLY fucked that up when she was Governor)...

    As for YOUR situation, maybe you should hire my wife to take a look at your current tax situation. Seriously. You not making out any better may also have more to do at the state level. I dunno. I don't care. It works well now for me and a number of people I know. It doesn't work for you. Oh well...

    BTW-Not only did I NOT vote for Bush (didn't vote for Gore, either), but I WON'T be casting a vote in the upcoming election, either. No thanks. I don't wanna have anything to do with either of these boobs being in office. But under the current admininstration, MY FAMILY'S pockets HAVE gotten thicker...
    Respectable response. I guess I understand there is more to this country than me & my situation.... obviously you don't wish to see a bigger picture.

    Also, I never wanted you to disclose your financial information but I'm guessing there are better benefits now (vs. before) if you're married, head of household, with kids, and living in New Hampshire. I happen to be single, don't own a home, have no kids, and living in Massachusetts. My situation differs from yours and we're obviously faced with different government stipulations. My girlfriend is an accountant and my cousin is a CPA. My taxes are filed correctly every year. I'm telling you my situation sucks more now than 4 years ago. I dunno... take it for what it's worth. I'm not lying.

    Brian

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  15. #40
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    all this talk of tax cut is BS.

    like many of you I received a check back from the gov too, and i gave it straight to BIG OIL.... along with more of my hard earned cash!! don't tell me that he isnt influenced by big oil. BS

    I remember in the late 90's, all the talk was that the poor oil farms in Texas couldn't pump the oil from their wells. It wasnt cost effective to do so. Now all of a sudden we have oil trading at all time record highs of $53 a barrel. Up some 60% in two years. Must be nice to be a texas oil man now. Funny, He doesn't seem to be too concerned about it.

    Im tired of my pockets getting thinner and the oil companies getting fatter. Im paying more for everything now, and most of it can be attributed to higher energy costs. Im no Kerry supporter. But my vote will be for change. Im tired of this Bush BS. In my eyes he hasnt helped our country out one bit.

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  16. #41
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Ok, it had to come sooner or later...Bush is helping line the pockets of his oil buddies, just like Cheney is helping out his former employer. More empty, unsubstantiated claims from angry people who just don't like Bush. Yeah, cry me a fukkin river, our life here is sooo bad.

    This whole anti-Bush movement really has me scratching my head... I'm not sure where it comes from. I could not stand Clinton, but, I sure as hell didn't think that my life was sooo horrible under his administration. And, I did not blame him, personally, for all that was wrong in my life at the time. blah, blah, fukkin blah....

    We are so divided in this country right now, we may find ourselves in another civil war before too long.

    God help us!!!! Oh sorry, was that too religious for all of the "separation of church and state" folk. Too bad, deal with it!!!

    All set with this thread. I have said my peace, DONE.

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  17. #42
    Lifer SEVENSGT's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Brian_C6
    I'm telling you my situation sucks more now than 4 years ago. I dunno... take it for what it's worth. I'm not lying.

    Brian

    then I have to suggest jay's point to 'this must be on the state level'... My city taxes have changed along with state going up... This BS about the feds paying for schools is just that BS, I pay city and state taxes for my children to attend state and city schools. Look at the city you live in and your state taxes, by moving 2 towns over you could lower what you pay by a couple hundred a year

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  18. #43
    Lifer
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    That is such a simplification...

    I won't say anything about Bush as the thread said not too...

    But things are way more complicated. Go back to WWIII and most americans had never met a German or a Japanese person. We mostly viewed them as far away different people, not people we knew and had met. The media was far less prevalent. There was no CNN or Fox news to show dead Germans or Japanese people from our bombs, etc.. It was MUCH easier for a government to spread propaganda nd whitewash a war to hide how bad it is. In WWII the government used racism to great effect to motivate the population. By Vietnam that was a lot harder to do.

    Now fast forward to now and many of us have corresponded via the internet with people from all over the world. Business has become global, we see and talk these people all the time. The media is everywhere, communication is instant.

    It is 100% natural that with these changes people will be less confrontational and supportive of preemptive strikes, etc.. It is way harder to justify when you can associate faces & individuals with the country you are about to bomb.

    BTW... didn't George Carlin use pussification quite a while ago?

    Ben

    Originally posted by Mystery Squid
    I'll tell you exactly why.

    Over the years, the liberal influence has spread such that our nation is slowly becoming more "pussified" every day. (props. to dzervit for coining the term "pussification") As this influence spreads, we will have less and less tolerance for any type of pro-active actions. This pussification is all around us, "time outs" for children, people who must be "politically correct", getting sued for sexual harrasment if wink at some chick at the office, tougher gun laws, it's become acceptable for people to avoid confrontations, etc., etc., etc.,.

    If this has happened 40 years ago, Bush would win a second term by a landslide, but thanks to the ever increasing liberal contingency....

    Just be ready, this liberalization movement will eventually become mainstream, and when it does, just be sure you have plenty of canned goods, and move to Montanna...

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  19. #44
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    who's angry?? because im not happy with the job Bush is doing, and am willing to stand up for it, im angry?? far from it. no need to get all emo about it. its purely business. im not happy with his job performance, plain and simple. he is not getting my vote for a second term. period, end of sentence for me.

    as far as unsubstantitated claims, maybe for you they are. I guess for me i dont actually need to see the memo to Bush reminding him who got him elected. I can see the forest for the trees. I understand how politics works.

    and no, im not a bleeding heart liberal, far from it thank you. i am very conservative in my political views. i voted for Bush in 2000. however, i also voted for Clinton in 96 for much the same reason here. i wasnt happy with Bush Sr. job performance plain and simple. i believe there is a reason why we vote every 4 years. presidents get 4 years, great presidents get 8. so save your speech about the country going down the tubes because of the bleeding heart liberals for somebody else. i believe change is a good thing. and no, im not bound by party lines. I vote how I feel the country would best be served.

    and as far as claiming Bush is a man with a back bone that is BS too. That would be like me saying the same thing about Kerry. Neither one of these guys has ever had to work hard, or even work at all, for anything in their lives. I dont identify with either of them, and I wouldnt want to. They have had life handed to them on a silver plater. They dont know what hard work is.

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  20. #45
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Respectable response. I guess I understand there is more to this country than me & my situation.... obviously you don't wish to see a bigger picture.
    Likewise, Bri...

    In your first post you ASKED '...what do you like about Bush?'. I told you what you asked: What *I* like about Bush. You basically tried to discredit the reasons I gave you for ME liking Dubbya because the numbers don't work that way for you. THEN you tell me they work for some but not others. Yet you want ME to prove my situation to you. Very Kerryesque, btw...

    Also, I never wanted you to disclose your financial information but I'm guessing there are better benefits now (vs. before) if you're married, head of household, with kids, and living in New Hampshire. I happen to be single, don't own a home, have no kids, and living in Massachusetts. My situation differs from yours and we're obviously faced with different government stipulations.
    I'll buy that. My biggest point though is that the TAX credits we now get are primarily responsible for *US* realizing much more actual cash in pocket than we were when we DIDN'T get those credits (under the previous admin.)

    My girlfriend is an accountant and my cousin is a CPA. My taxes are filed correctly every year. I'm telling you my situation sucks more now than 4 years ago. I dunno... take it for what it's worth. I'm not lying.
    And I'm tellin' YOU that MY situation is far better than it was THEN. But *I* must be lying...

    Just for the record: my wife & I fall into the combined income of up to $75K (middle class by all definitions, except the previous admin's), and we claim the children as dependants (and we own a home). This is the way we've been claiming for four years. The first year we did that, we got fuggin' PORKED. The numbers I posted indicate what we were seeing then as opposed to what we're seeing now. Again, that's thanks in part to far better tax credits for parents & homeowners & even those that are self employed. THAT was the doing of the current admin, which is why *I* like Bush. The numbers we crunched aren't lying, nor am I...

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  21. #46
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    who's angry?? because im not happy with the job Bush is doing, and am willing to stand up for it, im angry?? far from it. no need to get all emo about it. its purely business. im not happy with his job performance, plain and simple. he is not getting my vote for a second term. period, end of sentence for me.
    Then why are you posting in THIS thread? The question was 'what do you LIKE about Bush?'

    Neither one of these guys has ever had to work hard, or even work at all, for anything in their lives. I dont identify with either of them, and I wouldnt want to. They have had life handed to them on a silver plater. They dont know what hard work is.
    I'll buy into THAT any ol' day!

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  22. #47
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Mystery Squid
    I'll tell you exactly why.

    Over the years, the liberal influence has spread such that our nation is slowly becoming more "pussified" every day. (props. to dzervit for coining the term "pussification") As this influence spreads, we will have less and less tolerance for any type of pro-active actions. This pussification is all around us, "time outs" for children, people who must be "politically correct", getting sued for sexual harrasment if wink at some chick at the office, tougher gun laws, it's become acceptable for people to avoid confrontations, etc., etc., etc.,.

    If this has happened 40 years ago, Bush would win a second term by a landslide, but thanks to the ever increasing liberal contingency....

    Just be ready, this liberalization movement will eventually become mainstream, and when it does, just be sure you have plenty of canned goods, and move to Montanna...
    As much as I usually enjoy your arguments, MrE, this one scares me a little.

    They are a lot of liberals who take things a bit too far, thinking George Bush had something to do with 9/11 for an excuse to have a war with Iraq, etc., all the way down to accusing Bush and Cheney of startng the war in Afganistan so they could build some stupid pipeline across the country.

    But for every liberal like that, there is an equal and opposite conservative. They are the guys who bash Kerry's military service, etc.

    I'm afraid you might be going a bit too far by blaming annoying parts of society on people whose political influences are liberlal.

    I consider myself to be somewhat liberal, although I hate the concept of political correctness, I dont believe in gun control, and I dont like the usual Democratic "tax and spend" theory. I dont think I have contributed to any pussification

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  23. #48
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Mystery Squid
    someone explain to me this racism against those who have not had to "work" "hard" to achieve whatever. Everytime I see that attitude expressed, I think of this kid back in highschool, David Chrzan was his name, and he was always bitter towards anyone that didn't work their asses off at a farm. Like it somehow makes one a better person? C'mon, that's just ridiculous.
    To ME, it tells me they're down to earth. More realistic opinions of what life is REALLY like...

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  24. #49
    Lifer
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Mystery Squid
    I like reading your posts ben, because you're religiously just a little off...

    And your blog isn't a simplification?

    I'll sum it up in one sentence:

    Increased communication is not solely responsible for the adoption of liberal ideology.
    Lack of desire to go to war has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative.

    I said nothing about increased communication causing people to be more liberal.

    I said increased communication IMO is causing all people to be have less desire to go to war, whether they are conservative or liberal.

    The only people who want to start wars are the people who have nothing to lose. We need to fight back if we are attacked, but I really feel as society progresses, starting a war creates more and more problems than it solves, at least relative to the past. The President has nothing to really lose for starting a war. Senators and reps likely don't either. But you and I certainly do, whether we are conservative or liberal.

    You are in some kind of paranoid delusion anyway, there is no great swing towards people being liberal.

    Ben

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  25. #50
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    Bush Lovers.... Serious Question for you.

    Originally posted by Mystery Squid
    Maybe I should have refined my argument a bit, I blame the more excessive liberals, the ones whose ideologies come at the expense of true rationality and are actually counter productive to meaningful progress....
    But could we say that there are just as many people who have these ideologies on the Republican side as the Democrat side?

    A good example is this recent FCC crackdown. There seem to be just as many Dems as Republicans trying whitewash our media. (fukkers. Fuck the FCC.)

    Like I said, for ever nutjob liberal, there is an equal and opposite conservative.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

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