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Domestic hot water heaters

  1. #26
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Just occurred to me that I have a gate valve shutoff for this branch of the house. I could maybe half close it, limit the rate that tub can be filled and verify for once and for all we are overwhelming the coil? Would that work?
    Would I need to limit the cold side too? No as the tub valve is supposed to balance, right? It should self limit the cold side too.

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  2. #27
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    But I think the propane usage should map. I looked up the last 2 years and she consistently filled 1x/year.. I was wrong about what that cost.. looks like about $500/year. So the plumber she saw yesterday was within reason with his guestimate of $600/yr for gas.

    Would that fancy-pants heater really cost <$200/yr to run? Time to do the maths.


    Congrats on the reason I think you had so many guests these last few weeks by the way.
    I use about $300/ year for tankless gas hot water, cooking and cloths drying for 2 people and plan on cutting that in half by joining a LP club, My 900sqft office is heated with a Rinnai direct vent heater, runs about $750/yr

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  3. #28
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    Yeah, our 40gal is cool to the touch externally while holding 120 degree water. It'll maintain it for days before asking for more heat.
    I have been told by several sources this is why on demand is not as efficient as everyone seems to think.

    The other problem with on demand in my logic is that you are trying to heat moving water. That means it needs to get super hot which requires a lot of fuel. When you consider this happens every time you call for hot water it doesn't make as much sense. With a good heater standby loss is not as bad as some think and it's much easier to heat still water. This is why to me hybrids make the most sense from an efficiency standpoint.

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  4. #29
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Insulation is your friend.

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  5. #30
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    Insulation is your friend.
    That's what I keep telling my wife about my midsection..

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  6. #31
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    A few years back I thought about starting a solar hot water company.

    The system has a large insulated tank that pre heats water going to the hot water heaters, operates automatically

    Would cost about 7000 installed Even making a good profit the customer with electric hot water would get a payback of about 7 years

    Could arrange financing so that their bill would go down on month 2 , with 10 year payment then free from then on

    Asked like 40 home owners and not ONE said they would do it

    Meanwhile the hippie dippy good for climate change BS guy sells elites a system for like 12,000 for feel good

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  7. #32
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Well. I went ahead and fell in love with a hippie dippy good for climate change BS woman. So maybe we'll consider it.

    I still don't think we're very good candidates for solar because of environmental reasons. Although I should challenge that and learn more about it.

    Turns out my wife did some competitive analysis for someone trying to get into that biz a few years ago. Bottom line was that there is already someone local kicking ass and taking numbers in that space. We may call them.
    Seems they too are pushing heat-pump / hybrid water heaters.. just powered by PV electric panels. Intewesting..

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  8. #33
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    PV panels are cheap comparatively. That might be the better way to go, never ran the numbers. But I would still want extra storage for a heat pump set-up.

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  9. #34
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    This is cool. This outfit is pushing heat pumps for everything; space heating, space cooling and water heating. All backed by PV's. I'd totally do this stuff soup to nuts if building new.
    Suddenly far more interested in that hybrid tank type heater.

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  10. #35
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Heat pumps make a lot of sense. They move heat, they do not create it (in broad sense). Their only issue is the limitations on the amount they can step up the grade of heat. The higher temps you try to achieve the less efficient they are. The trade off is storage. If you make 140F water, they are not overly efficient. But that 140 can be mixed with unheated water to give you a decent amount of 110F water. But if you make it at 120, the unit is more efficient and has greater capacity, but you need more 120F water to mix down to 110F for the same end result. And it is a differential temperature thing. So in the summer and you have an abundance of 75F air to feed around it, it will do great. In the winter, when air temps are lower, you end up placing more heating load on your boiler to supply the heat in the space where the HPDHW is located.
    I used to install hot water recovery units on HVAC systems when I lived in Fla. Sucking all that heat from your house, you dump it in your hot water tank, free energies. One guy I actually tied the heat recovery into his pool, not sure why, pools get 85+ down there on their own.

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  11. #36
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    If you watch This Old House, they seem to install heat pump systems all the time.

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  12. #37
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Haven't watched in years. Not since cutting cable. Netflix owns my TV time these days, as much as that sucks.
    Seen a couple clips on youtube. I don't even recognize any of the actors.
    I guess these things are a thing. Who knew?

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  13. #38
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Any thoughts on sizing a tank-type water heater?

    Single family home. 3 bedrooms, 1 full bath (with tub), 1 3/4 (with shower), 1 half bath. 3-5 residents.

    Home despots' guides say 50-gal. Seems small to me. Energy guide says 67-gal "first hour" capacity.
    My guess is my tub (worst offender) can draw ~50-gal at most. So.. yeah.. right?

    The 65-gal option is the next step up; 75-gal "first hour". $450 more initial and ~$50/yr more to operate, per the EPA label. Overkill, right?

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  14. #39
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Install this on the tub, problem solved.

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  15. #40
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    How many btu or kW are those tanks?

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  16. #41
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    915 kWh??!? for the little guy. 1341 kWh for the bigger one.

    That's from the EPA sticker. That what we're talking about?

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  17. #42
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    That sounds a little high, unless you have 3 phase power in your house.

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  18. #43
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    So it seems most of the 50's at the Gnome Peepshow are twin 4500W or twin 5500W units. So if you went with twin 5500W units you could heat 1.25 gpm of water from 50 to 110F. But that is after you expire the 50Gal of 120 to 130F water you have stored in the belly of the beast. So you could run that 50 gal HW tank for around 25-30 minutes at 2gpm before you started to notice a drop in temp. You'd tax it to fill a tub comfortably.

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  19. #44
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    That sounds a little high, unless you have 3 phase power in your house.
    Those aren't peak draws, that's estimated usage for a year. 1341 kWh over the course of a year averages out to 3.7kWh a day, .15kWh an hour. The 42" 'Hospitality' TV sitting beside me has an EPA sticker noting 78 kWh a year estimated draw based on 5 hours a day usage for comparison. Looking at what's on Home Depot's site, the Rheem hybrid 65 gallon wants a 30A breaker. The hybrid compressor side is rated at 4200 Btu/H. The newer spec sheet on Rheem's site notes there are versions that only need a 15A breaker, not sure what's different with them? Also, WiFi, in a water heater?!

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  20. #45
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Yeah. My wife wants voice recognition too.

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  21. #46
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Yeah. My wife wants voice recognition too.
    "Hey Alexa, scald the f*@&! out of her in the shower."

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  22. #47
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    After a summer of the existing system being good 'nuf, we are preparing for winter by installing an expensive as fuck hybrid electric heater. Wife is convinced we'll save the whales with this one. Happy wife => happy life.
    One she picked is wifi connected. Meaning one of ya'll can hack my water heater now.

    Any thoughts on what I can do with the condensate drain? My septic drain is up-hill from this thing and on the opposite side of the room.

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  23. #48
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Condensate pump like you use on big ACs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Little-G...FcjDwAodmjYPIA

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  24. #49
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Any thoughts on what I can do with the condensate drain? My septic drain is up-hill from this thing and on the opposite side of the room.
    Is this in your basement and do you have a sump?

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  25. #50
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic hot water heaters

    No sump. Maybe it's easiest to add one.

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