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“Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

  1. #51
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?


    Defined benefit plans are pretty rare in the private realm these days. Most have a defined contribution plan, ie 401k. Puts the risk more on the employee. Company gets the obligation off their books.

    I have never worked at a place where pensions were offered anymore. Couple places where some long timers had them. But nobody in my age bracket and I think they have all phased out of my team where I am at now.

    Personally I am okay with a 401k instead of a pension. I like being in control. And I don't trust the company to be around for the rest of my life. I say gummies the cash now, thanks. I'll take it from there.

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  2. #52
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Net worth has little do do with Fuck you money unless your are willing to sell your possessions to live off the proceeds. That sorta goes against the definition of fuck you money. Also, that stat said household networth. That includes everyone living under the roof! individuals with 1M networth must be a LOT lower. And individuals with 1M in liquid assets wildly lower than that. I believe you are into top 10% once you reach that mark.

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  3. #53
    Lifer
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    The whole pension thing is a curveball. How does one place a worth on it?
    What it should pay out X how long you expect to be alive to draw off it?
    My pension plan comes with a disclosure like slightly more complex Social Security statement. "Here is your monthly payment amount if you start drawing at age 65, 69 or 72. And here are the amounts if you decide to draw them for a defined period (10/20/30 years) versus your lifetime." So, if I want to start taking payments at 69 yeas old for a period of 20 years, my payment would be defined at $X based on a percentage of my salary over the last 10 years.

    Regardless of the structure it wouldn't be enough to live on, but it will certainly help. My company has been around for 150 years and is extraordinarily well run and financed so I have no fear that the pension plan will ever be under-funded.

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  4. #54
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Net worth has little do do with Fuck you money unless your are willing to sell your possessions to live off the proceeds. That sorta goes against the definition of fuck you money. Also, that stat said household networth. That includes everyone living under the roof! individuals with 1M networth must be a LOT lower. And individuals with 1M in liquid assets wildly lower than that. I believe you are into top 10% once you reach that mark.
    5.9 million Americans with a liquid net in excess of 1M (investopedia).

    A high net worth in real estate can very much influence your FU funds, just ask the people leaving Cali for AZ and TX. Yes, you have to be willing to leave California. Or New York, etc.

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  5. #55
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Yes, the correct difference is defined benefit vs. defined contribution.

    The former guarantees the benefit for life, the latter works like a 401(k).

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  6. #56

    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    I think we are confusing FU money and retirement (or FIRE) money here a bit.
    And that may be adding to the confusion of net worth vs liquid assets.

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  7. #57
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Fuck you money is paying off my house.
    That’s it.
    After that it’s just showboating.

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  8. #58
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    The house being paid off is huge. It still costs taxes and other expenses, but it is a big step toward being able to say FU pretty much at will and still keep a roof over your head.

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  9. #59
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    People place too high of a value on money. Sure it's good to be responsible and save but live your life a little too. Time is more valuable than money at this point.

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  10. #60
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    ESOP plans are not defined benefit plans.

    https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans...ip-plans-esops

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  11. #61
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ESOP plans are not defined benefit plans.

    https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans...ip-plans-esops
    You want to write a letter to HR and let them know to not call it a pension?

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  12. #62
    Lifer wiggeywackyo's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    5.9 million Americans with a liquid net in excess of 1M (investopedia).

    A high net worth in real estate can very much influence your FU funds, just ask the people leaving Cali for AZ and TX. Yes, you have to be willing to leave California. Or New York, etc.

    It can if it's not your primary. But if the plan is to die in the McMansion, then a 2M house ain't going to go far in buying your groceries.......

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  13. #63
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    You want to write a letter to HR and let them know to not call it a pension?
    No, I just want you to better understand what your employer’s retirement vehicle is.

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  14. #64
    Lifer wiggeywackyo's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    Copied and pasted from our ESOP portal.



    I honestly haven't looked into this much since I can't contribute to it and they contribute a set percentage of your salary to it every year.
    Yea, that's definitely not a pension. And I hope that you're not putting your whole nut in that basket, unless you work for "insert name of company that's been around 100+ years and has solid books".

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  15. #65
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggeywackyo View Post
    Yea, that's definitely not a pension. And I hope that you're not putting your whole nut in that basket, unless you work for "insert name of company that's been around 100+ years and has solid books".
    Yeah, what do I know, I’ve only been a CPA six years longer than he’s been alive.

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  16. #66

    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    People place too high of a value on money. Sure it's good to be responsible and save but live your life a little too. Time is more valuable than money at this point.
    Dude what do you think of those who save? That are miserable and hate life?
    You realize majority of people own motorcycles and are/have raced. Same majority also has a fuckton of different hobbies.

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  17. #67
    Get Weird! maxim_X's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by oVTo View Post
    Just curious, is there anyone reading this thread who works in the private sector for a company that includes pensions in their benefit package?
    Yes, I have 2. The first one is from the IBEW. It's $4.50 x years in the union per month. The other is $32 x vested years at time of retirement per month. We also have an annuity, which isn't really an annuity, but it's always called that, and I don't know why.

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  18. #68
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    No, I just want you to better understand what your employer’s retirement vehicle is.
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggeywackyo View Post
    Yea, that's definitely not a pension. And I hope that you're not putting your whole nut in that basket, unless you work for "insert name of company that's been around 100+ years and has solid books".
    I'm counting on marrying rich and divorcing.
    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Dude what do you think of those who save? That are miserable and hate life?
    You realize majority of people own motorcycles and are/have raced. Same majority also has a fuckton of different hobbies.
    People own motorcycles and have raced here?! Damn that's cool.

    I'm talking more about the work to live vs live to work. We're at completely different stages of life, but I'd much rather put my 40 in and have time to live.

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  19. #69
    Lifer union's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by oVTo View Post
    Just curious, is there anyone reading this thread who works in the private sector for a company that includes pensions in their benefit package?
    My company provides both a defined Pension and a matching 401k. They stopped offering the pension to new highers around 8 years ago and upped the company contribution to the 401k.

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  20. #70
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    FU money is being able to tell the boss what a flaming doosh-canoe he is at the top of your lungs as you walk out, without any regard for what comes next, references or any of that jazz. I used to think it meant working purely because you felt like it. But I've relaxed that a little to think it is more of a spectrum that starts with a little financial security to survive that layoff or dry-patch and evolves from there.

    If someone dropped $10M on my head I'd probably finish out the year @ work to not leave my cats in a lurch, but be done after that. I'd start a couple dozen non-profs and maybe a center for kids who can't read good and want to learn how to other stuff good too. But when the sun was shining I'd sure as hell not be at a keyboard from 9-5.

    Drop $1M on my head and the decision isn't as easy.

    Drop $100k and virtually nothing changes. That is depressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    The house being paid off is huge. It still costs taxes and other expenses, but it is a big step toward being able to say FU pretty much at will and still keep a roof over your head.
    Eh. With rates where they are today, why? Would you rather have $200k in the bank and $100k left on a 30 year (call it a payment of ~$800/mo) or $100k in the bank and no payment? An extra $100k in the bank means for an extra $3-4k/yr in safe drawdown.. almost exactly what the note will cost you to hold. But on the flipside you have a lot more flexibility. And then there is the upside if the market does what it has done for the last 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    No, I just want you to better understand what your employer’s retirement vehicle is.
    Might also be worth mentioning the risk involved in holding a lot of stock in one company relative to your savings. If half (or more) of your savings is tied up in one company and that company goes under.. well.
    I participate sparingly in a similar program. But as soon as I can sell the company stock I do so I can diversify that savings. One more tool in the tool-chest. But not the primary driver.

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  21. #71
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    nhbubba,

    I didn’t want to get into the idea of an ESOP as primarily a vehicle for owners of privately held companies to liquidate their interest over time by basically selling their stock to the employees’ retirement plan as opposed to having the retirement plan assets broadly invested.

    ESOPs, like everything else have good points and bad for both sides. A lot depends on the true motivation of the owners and the way the valuation is done.

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  22. #72
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    I realize now I never really understood the difference between an ESOP and an ESPP. I have an ESPP but many have called it an ESOP out of habit or not knowing the difference, etc. I hit the googles and sho' nuf:

    Difference between an ESOP and ESPP. ... These ESOPs are normally created when a retiring owner wants to transfer the ownership to the employees in the company. On the other hand, an ESPP permits employees to use after-tax wages to purchase the stock in their company, normally at a discounted price.
    I have an ESPP that has a 5 year hold on anything you buy. As such I treat it like a pipeline. Everything that ages out gets sold and folded into another pot regardless of how well/poorly the stock is doing. I don't want to get too much in that one basket. Not being able to sell without leaving the company would be a lot different.

    I agree. I would NOT treat an ESOP program like a pension. Way fewer guarantees. I'm not sure how an ESOP program would factor into my program.

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  23. #73
    Dictionary quoting knob stoinkythepig's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    Quote Originally Posted by oVTo View Post
    Just curious, is there anyone reading this thread who works in the private sector for a company that includes pensions in their benefit package?
    My employer did offer a pension, but stopped adding to it in 2001, so it's no longer growing and I know precisely how much I will get. I am pension eligible, free of debt, and I am possibly at the FU-money level, but my present family situation (I'm providing some elderly relative care that requires a local presence) prevents me from heading out for distant ports on my boat, so I'm mostly just adding to savings right now. Fortunately, I love my work, so being "stuck" in NH is not a problem and I don't have much incentive to retire right now.

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  24. #74
    Lifer Not Sure's Avatar
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    I have ESPN.

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  25. #75
    Lifer
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    Re: “Forget You” money, how much and at what age?

    I had an ESOP many years ago in a small company, basically the finance arm of a medical device company. Stock never went below $2 or above $3. After I left I completely forgot about it - years later an actual stock certificate for 6,000 shares of GE showed up out of the blue. Turns out GE Cap bought out the company on a huge multiple - wouldn't mean that much today but back then GE was a blue chip.

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