Midsize SUV Shopping/Research

[Point37]

Resale on the Koreans is getting better. A well cared for one will get you to 200K. A neglected one will crush your will to live. Either way lots of irritating little things are gonna crop up along the way, especially 75K plus. Toyonda they are not. They do require a lot more care and feeding as they age. Money is spent on flash, infotainment and upfront value. Mechanical is not a priority and long term costs catch up with you as they age.

This is why I lean towards the japanese makes...put a lot of miles on the cars and I usually want to run them into the ground...I typically do regular oil/filter changes...other that it’s wear and tear items...tires, brakes, air filters...and hope that nothing else pops up


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[SteveM]

Pilot

I would even go back and look at a well maintained version of the prior, boxier model. Less tech, rock solid.

[nhbubba]

What is the Honda Passport vs the Pilot? Seems like a lesser model as it lacks the 3rd row and seems smaller. Yet it costs more? Website seems to slot it above the Pilot.

The Pilot is mind-bogglingly similar to our Odyssey. 2nd row "captains chair" seats in the upper trims are straight out of our van, minus the side-side slide versatility. I guess you can't remove them either.

[dankatz]

What is the Honda Passport vs the Pilot? Seems like a lesser model as it lacks the 3rd row and seems smaller. Yet it costs more? Website seems to slot it above the Pilot.

The Pilot is mind-bogglingly similar to our Odyssey. 2nd row "captains chair" seats in the upper trims are straight out of our van, minus the side-side slide versatility. I guess you can't remove them either.

The Passport is marketed as more rugged, Grand Cherokee competitor. In reality, it is really just a chopped Pilot with some cosmetic modifications. The newer Pilot has excellent room management inside for it's physical size. It has a decent third row seat that is close to the Atlas in size and is usable. Until the recent refresh, the Highlander's third row seat was really for kids/teens more than adults. Not very roomy. I am not sure if they changed it with the recent refresh

[tsorfas]

I saw in a third row of a pilot and although it wasn’t exactly comfortable I fit just fine (5-11” 175lbs). Can’t say the same about the CX-9. Much tighter. Haven’t been in a highlander in a very long time. How does it compare to fuel consumption with the Honda and Mazda? What about in terms of luxury?

[dankatz]

I saw in a third row of a pilot and although it wasn’t exactly comfortable I fit just fine (5-11” 175lbs). Can’t say the same about the CX-9. Much tighter. Haven’t been in a highlander in a very long time. How does it compare to fuel consumption with the Honda and Mazda? What about in terms of luxury?

Mazda appears the most luxurious inside - I like what they have been doing for the past few years. The Honda is fine, but you won't mistake it for an Audi. Fuel economy is good for a three row SUV since it has the cylinder deactivation. They are fairly similar in fuel economy with a slight edge to the Mazda. the Korean offerings look great inside.

[Garandman]

I "learned" how to tow with 120ish HP and a 16' bow rider. That experience taught me so much speed, momentum and heat management amongst other things. People who have only towed with something built this century have no clue what it's like to have to plan simple manuevers so far in advance and are spoiled!

I'm a fan of vastly over speccing if something is gonna be towed far and regularly. Otherwise, I'm also the guy who hooked up a trailer to a 4 cyl Mazda and am considering a small utility one for a Prius.

We used to tow racing sailboats. They have a lot of wind resistance, and often lead keels so the weights get up there. Usual haul was Florida and back. Our rule of thumb was if you wanted longevity you towed at 1/2 rated capacity.

The rub becomes what capacity actually is: different manufacturers use different standards and US ratings are lawyered up. The Sprinter is rated 5,200 lbs here and 7,700 (3,500kg) everywhere else. Just towed 5,700 lbs without any difficulty. Ol OBW H6 is rated 3,500, newer and more powerful model 3,000 here and 4,400 everywhere else. Our Ford Transit Connect van was rated zero.

[e30addict]

We used to tow racing sailboats. They have a lot of wind resistance, and often lead keels so the weights get up there. Usual haul was Florida and back. Our rule of thumb was if you wanted longevity you towed at 1/2 rated capacity.

The rub becomes what capacity actually is: different manufacturers use different standards and US ratings are lawyered up. The Sprinter is rated 5,200 lbs here and 7,700 (3,500kg) everywhere else. Just towed 5,700 lbs without any difficulty. Ol OBW H6 is rated 3,500, newer and more powerful model 3,000 here and 4,400 everywhere else. Our Ford Transit Connect van was rated zero.

I think tow ratings are a little more standardized now. At least it should be easier to compare models in the U.S. when shopping. Finding half of the rated capacity still remains the same challenge though if you're looking to get right to that true 50% figure.

Tow limits aren't really limited by power trains anymore. Most vehicles seem to have more then enough power to move the rated loads and then some. Frame, suspension and brakes seems to hit their limit well before you'll damage the powertrain. Those that expect to hook up a trailer and have the same performance as unloaded daily driving might disagree but those who have towed with older vehicles or those who tow heavy regularly probably wouldn't. Heavy loads can get away from you pretty quick in a blink if you space out, as I'm sure you know.

I see all these hot shot trucking guys loading up trucks to the max and pounding miles on them. They crow about gross revenue but I can't figure out how they can take 100K setups and pound them into the ground in a few years and still have a an actual profit at the end of the day. They probably do "great" until they have to replace the truck and then all their "profits" evaporate as they start over.

https://www.tfltruck.com/2019/10/her...e-j2807-video/

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j2807_201602/

[Garandman]

Depreciation!

Electric brakes controllers are a huge upgrade over surge brakes. The Tahoe and EcoBoost Transit towed 6,200 lbs without sweat.

[dudutzu]

Thanks...the Toyota, Mazda and Honda are my top 3...hoping I can steer her towards something reasonable...otherwise she can keep her car and I’ll buy the suv and maybe pick the hybrid highlander so I can save a bit on gas...I’m not sure if there are any other hybrids on my list other than the highlander, mdx and explorer

Edit: hybrid highlander has a cvt


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In regards to the toyota hybrid CVT transmissions, they're NOT the same type/design as the CVT's attached to the gas engines.
They're called E-CVT for electric cvt, they don't use a steel belt(weakest link) like the regular CVT's. They use the electric motors to vary the output therefore still a Continuously Variable Transmission. Other than that they're components are similar to a regular automatic transmission, which we know that they last.

[e30addict]

In regards to the toyota hybrid CVT transmissions, they're NOT the same type/design as the CVT's attached to the gas engines.
They're called E-CVT for electric cvt, they don't use a steel belt(weakest link) like the regular CVT's. They use the electric motors to vary the output therefore still a Continuously Variable Transmission. Other than that they're components are similar to a regular automatic transmission, which we know that they last.

Yup. Toyota hybrid is a constant mesh double planetary gearset. They're pretty bulletproof.

[jhawley]

Hi guys, your favorite random poster is back, (and in the car biz (mazda-chevy))

Of the options posted, the toyota is going to be dead dick reliable. a friend has the last gen and we crammed in 4 adults and two babies in car seats to head to the beach.
the mazda will be a blast to drive, but its a bit more cozy inside than the highlander.

I'd be tempted to roll the dice with the kia/hyundai. they have great warranties, and are giving you all the tech features that cost a fortune on a "luxury car"

the palisade has SHOCKINGLY nice interior. and the kia, dealers cant even keep them in stock.

Depending on how important the mpgs are I would also toss in a CPO Lexus GX460. Its a body on frame, so will tow better, has full time 4wd, so if your into offroading and camping thats a plus. Up until last year the only tech in it was blind spot, and parking sensors, (so nothing to shit the bed if you hate tech).

[Garandman]

No love for Chevrolet Traverse or Equinox?

[jhawley]

No love for Chevrolet Traverse or Equinox?

my jury is still out on them, I liked how the 1st gen was enormous. I was in a new loaded one the other day and it was nice but didnt really do anything for me.

I'm actually looking at an equinox/terrain diesel for my wife. but we dont need a third row. (one 2 year old and a puggle)

[Jim]

i tow my 6x12 trailer with an MDX. just hit 210,000 miles.
really happy with it.

[Garandman]

my jury is still out on them, I liked how the 1st gen was enormous. I was in a new loaded one the other day and it was nice but didnt really do anything for me.

I'm actually looking at an equinox/terrain diesel for my wife. but we dont need a third row. (one 2 year old and a puggle)

We had two Cruze turbodiesel: VM Motori (who makes Jeep diesels as well) 2L 4.

Never buying a smog-controlled diesel again. All the problems we had were emissions-related. Covered by warranty under federal law to 100K, then you are on your own. We also had a Cruze Eco and the diesels just barely covered the higher fuel price: but cost $3,000 more to buy.

[jhawley]

You were running them for you business correct?

[dankatz]

We had two Cruze turbodiesel: VM Motori (who makes Jeep diesels as well) 2L 4.

Never buying a smog-controlled diesel again. All the problems we had were emissions-related. Covered by warranty under federal law to 100K, then you are on your own. We also had a Cruze Eco and the diesels just barely covered the higher fuel price: but cost $3,000 more to buy.

Why would GM use VM Motori of all companies??? Is that what Opel and Vauxhall use in Europe? It would seem that they have a ton of diesel models that they should design and produce them in house. That 1.6 liter is economical. I had a 1.6TDI in a VW Touran rental. With a manual and loaded car it still was fast enough an utterly economical. Love my daughter's Golf TDI. I really like modern diesels.

Adding to the thread, it appears that they main issue with the Toyota Highlander third row seat was somewhat addressed with the 2020 redesign - 1.2" more rear leg room. Looking online, I would test drive them and see how they compare to the Honda and Mazda

[Point37]

Pilot

I would even go back and look at a well maintained version of the prior, boxier model. Less tech, rock solid.

yea that would be 2015 and earlier...i believe 2016 was the redesign year for the pilot...i'm driving a 2013 now so i don't want to take a side step age wise...plus i'm not sure i would be able to find one with under 30k miles

I saw in a third row of a pilot and although it wasn’t exactly comfortable I fit just fine (5-11” 175lbs). Can’t say the same about the CX-9. Much tighter. Haven’t been in a highlander in a very long time. How does it compare to fuel consumption with the Honda and Mazda? What about in terms of luxury?

good to know thanks...pilot and highlander are at the top for me

Mazda appears the most luxurious inside - I like what they have been doing for the past few years. The Honda is fine, but you won't mistake it for an Audi. Fuel economy is good for a three row SUV since it has the cylinder deactivation. They are fairly similar in fuel economy with a slight edge to the Mazda. the Korean offerings look great inside.

i don't believe they have the cylinder deactivation after the 2016 redesign...i think certain higher trims have a start stop feature now

In regards to the toyota hybrid CVT transmissions, they're NOT the same type/design as the CVT's attached to the gas engines.
They're called E-CVT for electric cvt, they don't use a steel belt(weakest link) like the regular CVT's. They use the electric motors to vary the output therefore still a Continuously Variable Transmission. Other than that they're components are similar to a regular automatic transmission, which we know that they last.

Yup. Toyota hybrid is a constant mesh double planetary gearset. They're pretty bulletproof.

good to know...thanks fellas...but the hybrid knocks the towing down to 3500 pounds so i'd probably rule that out as an option anyway

Hi guys, your favorite random poster is back, (and in the car biz (mazda-chevy))

Of the options posted, the toyota is going to be dead dick reliable. a friend has the last gen and we crammed in 4 adults and two babies in car seats to head to the beach.
the mazda will be a blast to drive, but its a bit more cozy inside than the highlander.

I'd be tempted to roll the dice with the kia/hyundai. they have great warranties, and are giving you all the tech features that cost a fortune on a "luxury car"

the palisade has SHOCKINGLY nice interior. and the kia, dealers cant even keep them in stock.

Depending on how important the mpgs are I would also toss in a CPO Lexus GX460. Its a body on frame, so will tow better, has full time 4wd, so if your into offroading and camping thats a plus. Up until last year the only tech in it was blind spot, and parking sensors, (so nothing to shit the bed if you hate tech).

the mazda having low towing knocks it down on my list...of the 2 kia/hyundai options, i like the looks of the kia over the hyundai but i feel that they give you those warranties cause you're going to have to use it...we would like to keep the mpgs as low as possible but isn't the gx460 much larger like a tahoe size?...i still want to be able to fit whatever we buy in the garage

i tow my 6x12 trailer with an MDX. just hit 210,000 miles.
really happy with it.

this is the type of mileage i like to hear...i bumped the acura up into the 2 spot in my original post...at the moment i'm really leaning towards at the top 3 cars on the below list because of reliability...not sure if anything in groups 4+ can provide the same level of reliability...i feel i should bump the nissan down to 4 as well (done)...i also feel like i should bump up the kia/hyundai up into group 3 (not sure yet)...reliability/resale seem weak for hyundai/kia

1
-toyota highlander (hybrid option is CVT)
4cyl 1500# v6 5000# (3500#)
-honda pilot
V6 Fwd 3500# v6 awd 5000#
2
-acura mdx (hybrid option)
V6 Fwd 3500# v6 awd 5000# (none?)
3
-mazda cx9
3500#
-lexus rx350l
3500#
4
-nissan pathfinder CVT
6000#
-buick enclave
V6 Fwd 1500# v6 awd 5000#
-subaru ascent CVT
5000#
5
-chevrolet traverse
5000#
-gmc acadia
V6 4000#
-ford explorer (hybrid option)
5000# (5000#)
-ford flex
4500#
6
-kia telluride
5000#
-hyundai pallisade
5000#

[dankatz]

The gx460 is much more of a "truck". The fuel mileage is much worse. Physically, it is not that big. I actually think the Pilot has more room inside. The Pilot still has Variable Cylinder Management which does help with the economy.

[Point37]

The gx460 is much more of a "truck". The fuel mileage is much worse. Physically, it is not that big. I actually think the Pilot has more room inside. The Pilot still has Variable Cylinder Management which does help with the economy.

yea the overall length is a little smaller than the highlander but the fuel mileage is going to knock it off the list in my book as we need the mileage and comfort more than the towing...didn't honda have some type of class action suit cause of that cylinder deactivation system or has that issue been addressed?

[Jim]

depending what year MDX you're targeting. the 2010 -2014 is supposedly the best. they came with trans coolers, and have 5000 pound towing capacity. the newer gen MDX are now 9 speed and you have to pay for the towing options...which i still wouldnt trust.

changing the trans, oil, front & rear gear oils is super easy on mine.

only thing i'd 100% recommend is get the weight distribution hitch from Harbor Freight. it'll be $185 with a generic 20% coupon off the web.

[Tas]

only thing i'd 100% recommend is get the weight distribution hitch from Harbor Freight. it'll be $185 with a generic 20% coupon off the web.

Serious question.....do those make that much of a difference?

I have a 2015 Explorer with the factory tow package, aluminum 6x12 V-nose single axel.

[Garandman]

3 row comparo.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...suvs-compared/

[Point37]

depending what year MDX you're targeting. the 2010 -2014 is supposedly the best. they came with trans coolers, and have 5000 pound towing capacity. the newer gen MDX are now 9 speed and you have to pay for the towing options...which i still wouldnt trust.

changing the trans, oil, front & rear gear oils is super easy on mine.

only thing i'd 100% recommend is get the weight distribution hitch from Harbor Freight. it'll be $185 with a generic 20% coupon off the web.

thanks...i'll probably go a little newer than that...i'm hoping to be 2017+

3 row comparo.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...suvs-compared/

thanks...i'll have to check this out when i get home...seems like the korean twins have the best rear seating...i click over to some of the other articles and am surprised by the reliability rankings on car & driver and jd power