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Something strange going on with my home boiler....

  1. #1
    xxaarraa
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    Something strange going on with my home boiler....


    OK, I have another home ownership question. I think this one needs some deductive work.

    Here are the basics of the house I recently bought (rental property):

    • 2 family.
    • 7 bedrooms, 3 levels, ~ 2700 sq. ft of living space.
    • One gas meter to heat both units. Currently, utilities have not been split and I am paying them.
    • Unit 1 has vents along the bottom of the walls (radiators had been removed at sometime in past), Unit 2 still has standing radiators in every room.
    • Current boiler in basement is from 1988. Not kidding. You can see the attached photo of the beautiful thing.
    • Windows in both units are a mix of newer, efficient vinyl windows and real old school windows. All sealed reasonably well, I went through and replaced 4 of them just recently.
    • I have 10 tenants living in both units now, and heat works great in both units, everyone has hot water. There are no issues other than the ridiculously high gas bill I am having to pay (more on that below).

    The boiler is a really decrepit looking "how's this still working" type of boiler. Here's everything I know about the boiler itself -

    • Home inspection report (photo attached) said "Water heater power source: tankless coil serves first floor, gas water heater serves second floor"
    • Subsequently during the P&S, seller confirmed "Seller confirms that hot water heater in basement is no longer functional and whole property is serviced by tankless hot water attached to furnace"
    • Seller in fact removed a second, small water heater that was originally installed in place saying that had been non-functional for a long time. My buyer's agent insisted they do that to prove that it was non-functional as they claimed. You can see a photo of it in the corner after they removed it.

    Now, two months of gas bills are in - $357 (house was empty and being renovated) and $595 (first full month with tenants - 10 tenants across both units). Since I am paying the utility bills, I have to get this under control soon. I got a few questions I'd like some thoughts on:

    • What do you think is the story with my gas heating setup? I have a MassSave audit scheduled for Jan 31 so I'll get some opinions there, but would love your thoughts on what you think is happening here. Am I tankless, and what the heck is 'tankless' ??
    • What is up with my gas bill? See attached photo for details. What's the difference between "gas delivery charge" and "gas supply charge" and why is my delivery charge through the roof?

    I knew going in the boiler needs to be replaced so I am ready to rip it out and put a new one in; and split the utilities for both units while I am at it, to eventually hand it over to the tenants. Unless something very obvious is wrong and boiler however old it is, isn't the main issue here.

    Thanks a lot guys,

    Something strange going on with my home boiler....-img_20161024_105402-jpg
    Something strange going on with my home boiler....-img_20170115_071444-jpg
    Something strange going on with my home boiler....-img_20161108_191449-jpg
    Something strange going on with my home boiler....-img_20170115_070813-jpg

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 01-15-17 at 09:40 AM.

  2. #2
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    #1

    make sure yer tenants are not controlling the temperature by opening windows

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  3. #3
    364 Beers Shy of a Liter Trajiks9's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Keep in mind that the supply charge is based on supply and demand. It will fluctuate throughout the year. Come summer it will virtually be nil. It is definitely time to have the audit performed and to have the efficiency checked. With the all the rebates and programs that are rolling out. It would be wise to take a portion of your tax returns and invest in a 95+ efficient boiler.
    I'm going to guess that your current setup is going to be around 87-90 afue. That means for every dollar you spend on heat .10 - .13 cents is going up the chimney. As Randy said time to monitor your tenants heat. Invest in some smart stats that you and you only can control via your computer, smart phone via wifi. Current rebate is $100.00 off with mass saves rebate.

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  4. #4
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    "tankless" means there is no tank storing hot water, it is heated on demand when someone turns a hot water faucet on

    to split the gas bill between the 2 units, you will need 2 separate heating systems and a meter on each one

    I really think someone is opening a window. Even if each unit is on a separate zone, if you have tenants in one unit that like warmer temps than the other, the ones that like cooler temps may not be able to keep their section as cool as they like without opening a window, getting it so that tenants pay for heat is the best way to stop the stupidity. The reason I really think someone is opening a window is how much the gas bill jumped when tenants moved in

    your 1st month under renovation there was no other activity going on like cooking, etc that creates heat in itself, I realize that the 2nd month with tenants (December I assume) was colder temperatures , but cooking and other household activity creates a lot of heat in itself vs a vacant building, or you may have a tenant that stands in an open doorway while he smokes a dube

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    Last edited by RandyO; 01-15-17 at 09:00 AM.
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    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    or you may have 10 tenants that like to take 45 minute hot showers each

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  6. #6
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    There are a ton of issues or could be a ton of issues. Windows will retain 60-80% of your energy cost. The placement of your thermostat and if it is digital or Mercury "old style" Mercury if it is off level will not function correctly. The pipes open to exposed cold air issue. The temp of your hot water and time hot water is being used. The size of the room the thermostat is in and the height of the ceiling its in. Attic and ceiling insulation ratings. The type of and style of roof and materials used on the roof. The last line is probably the least chance of loss but Is still something to look at. There a R many other things too but I would start there. Trouble shooting form simplistic to major.
    It's the same as fixing a bike. What's wrong why and how to fix without a major disaster.

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  7. #7
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    I'd wait for the Mass Save audit. Everything else is just speculation and could cost you $$ if you end up barking up the wrong tree.

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    Last edited by TheIglu; 01-15-17 at 10:27 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Just to clarify I'm not saying these are issues but typically this is where to begin as the problem areas.
    The Energy Auidt will most likely be done by a college student or a recently graduated high school student. The people who do these are not educated or understand the complexity of the construction. DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING without completely understanding their qualifications and experience with any home upgrades. I'm a construction tradesmen with over 30 years building. I have seen and heard a lot of bad advice and shitty work. Your system is not an ideal system for an income property. That is the bottom line.

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  9. #9
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Quote Originally Posted by Teamdineen View Post
    Your system is not an ideal system for an income property. That is the bottom line.
    Yeah no argument there. Looking for insight into what to fix in what order.

    I like your suggestion on starting with the easy things and working down the list. I'll look at the thermostats first. They are real old school ones - just two in place, one per unit in living room of each unit. There is a third in common foyer but that just seems broken and nonfunctional. I plan to install nest thermostats in both units anyway. The nest I have in my condo let's you lock it once its set so that limits tenants ability to turn up to 100.

    I'll specifically ask about pipes being exposed to cold. We'll check that.

    Beyond that, I'm leaning towards replacing the boiler before replacing windows or looking at roof etc. (roof is only 6 years old). I know boiler is beyond service life anyway so might as well plug that gap before looking elsewhere.

    Does that make sense?

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  10. #10
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    randys observation makes sense. if the whole house is 1 zone but is 2 separate families then one side may like 75 degrees and the other likes 65 degrees.
    i would say when you drop the money to update the whole situation that you spend the extra dough to make 2 "zones" with seperate meters. at least then youll be able to see whos lighting you cash on fire and can make a decision if temants should be paying the bill.
    it doesnt make sense to leave it in its current config unless you plan on converting it back to a single family home

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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Get an audit before you replace any systems. You may be able to 'update' your furnace with a better burner and more intelligence, or you may find that there is a massive heatloss elsewhere and the cost of a new system will never repay itself until you deal with the other issue, etc.

    One thing I'm confused about, you said old school radiators in one area, 'vents' in another. Vents, on a forced hot water system?

    Also, is this a steam system or forced hot water?

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  12. #12
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    another question, are the cooking appliances gas as well, or electric ?

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  13. #13
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post

    One thing I'm confused about, you said old school radiators in one area, 'vents' in another. Vents, on a forced hot water system?

    Also, is this a steam system or forced hot water?
    I am going to betray my lack of experience here, I believe it's a forced air (one unit) and forced water (other unit) system. Take a look at these photos - Unit 1 had its radiators taken out and replaced with the vents (forced air) at some point in the past, while Unit 2 still retains the radiators (forced hot water). I know Unit 1 had radiators in the past since I had to have the holes in the floors repaired when I had the hardwood refinished.


    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    another question, are the cooking appliances gas as well, or electric ?
    Unit 1 has a gas stove - 4 burner and oven. Unit 2 has an electric stove.

    Something strange going on with my home boiler....-img_20161117_122018-jpg

    Something strange going on with my home boiler....-img_20161203_100711-jpg

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  14. #14
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Ok, the 'vents' are baseboard radiators, so forced hot water (140℉ to 220℉) on the first unit. Unit 2 looks like it has a forced hot water radiator as I see two pipes and no steam vent. Vacuum the radiators out as they are dust traps which slows air convection through them, dropping their efficiency. They also shouldn't have furniture pushed right up against them.

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    Lifer snwbrdr435's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    I wish we had radiators... stupid forced hot air....

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  16. #16
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Quote Originally Posted by snwbrdr435 View Post
    I wish we had radiators... stupid forced hot air....
    the advantage of FHA is that you can use the same ductwork for AC, personally I don't like radiators, they collect dust and take up space, I wouldn't mind having radiant FHW though

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  17. #17
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    Ok, the 'vents' are baseboard radiators, so forced hot water (140℉ to 220℉) on the first unit. Unit 2 looks like it has a forced hot water radiator as I see two pipes and no steam vent. Vacuum the radiators out as they are dust traps which slows air convection through them, dropping their efficiency. They also shouldn't have furniture pushed right up against them.
    Seems right. One unit has "modern" baseboard units while the other unit has old school "radiators". Both are effectively the same technology. New school baseboard units are better at distributing heat.

    I'd start by looking into how things are zoned. You say there are 3 thermostats, only 2 of which are functional... That could be a problem. In general each thermostat is a zone. The more zones you have the more control you have. If you have a thermostat that isn't working it's hard to tell what it's doing.

    The energy audit is a great idea.

    Most instantaneous boilers are reasonably efficient, but as long as your tenants don't have to care about energy bills, there won't be anything keeping them from turning up the heat and opening the windows.

    Step 1: get the audit. Step 2: separate the energy bills.

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  18. #18
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Thanks for the suggestions guys. That makes sense, I'll start with getting a handle on the zones and thermostats, then look into cleaning the existing system (I was also told about draining the radiators to eliminate air locks?), then audits. Any way to check zones by myself or do I need to get a plumbing & heating professional to come take a look? Interesting to read that radiator systems are preferable over forced air? I just assumed that since radiators are so old school, they must be inefficient.

    I am leaning towards paying the money to put in two different systems and splitting the meter between the units - gotta be done for a two family investment property at some point anyway (I already got a quote to do the same for the electric as well). It just may be an outlay sooner than I was originally hoping, but oh well. You do the right thing and it only hurts once I suppose.

    As everyone said, I agree that you can only do so much to discourage bad tenant behavior, and turning over utilities to them is the only sure way of encouraging the right behaviors. Besides, I'd rather keep rents the same and send utilities their way as opposed to raising rent to compensate and still having to stress about behavior and usage.

    But I will wait for the Mass Save audit before throwing any money at it. I also plan on getting a plumbing & heating company to go through there and give me their opinion / quote as well. Will update this thread with what I find and end up doing.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 01-16-17 at 07:38 AM.

  19. #19
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    The comment about the house audit is correct, they aren't going to solve this for you. You will most likely end up with a voucher for extra insulation, a box of light bulbs, and pay back information on windows and programmable t-stats.

    Here's some things I'd look at.
    1. Water bill, this is a good indicator of how much water is being used by your tenants, a lot of which is converted to hot water use by your tenants. 10 people can use a lot of hot water.
    2. That boiler, if you are lucky is 80% efficient. And that is probably when it was new. Has it been serviced recently? IF you have gas, you can get a condensing boiler upwards of 98% peak efficiency.
    3. The heat exchanger for the hot water is built right into the boiler, there is no storage. It has to be kept hot so you have hot water ready all the time, therefore your boiler has to be kept hot. Go up on your roof when your boiler is off and see how much heat is still coming from the chimney. And when it fires for hot water it isn't very efficient. Same fire rate, small heat exchanger. Adding a side arm hot water tank to the system on its own zone would be a big benefit.
    4. One zone for the whole house, windows get cracked open.
    5. Are these people home all day? Are there any set back thermostats?

    Good luck.

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  20. #20

    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    What you've posted is 1/2 as much heat as the average Massachusetts home uses in an entire winter. It may be that you don't want to put thermostats of any kind into the apartments, and might consider a remote temp sensor to control all the heating automatically.

    "Heat: Landlords must provide a heating system for each apartment or one system that services all apartments in good working order. The landlord must pay for the fuel to provide heat and hot water and electricity unless the written rental agreement states that the tenant must pay for these. The heating season runs from September 16 through June 14th, during which every room must be heated to between 68˚F and not more than 78˚F between 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., and at least 64˚F at all other hours."


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  21. #21
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post

    I am leaning towards paying the money to put in two different systems and splitting the meter between the units - gotta be done for a two family investment property at some point anyway (I already got a quote to do the same for the electric as well). It just may be an outlay sooner than I was originally hoping, but oh well. You do the right thing and it only hurts once I suppose.
    .
    This. You're going to spend a significant amount of money anyway. You might as well set yourself up for the future instead of paying twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by audiojeff View Post
    What you've posted is 1/2 as much heat as the average Massachusetts home uses in an entire winter. It may be that you don't want to put thermostats of any kind into the apartments, and might consider a remote temp sensor to control all the heating automatically.

    "Heat: Landlords must provide a heating system for each apartment or one system that services all apartments in good working order. The landlord must pay for the fuel to provide heat and hot water and electricity unless the written rental agreement states that the tenant must pay for these. The heating season runs from September 16 through June 14th, during which every room must be heated to between 68˚F and not more than 78˚F between 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., and at least 64˚F at all other hours."

    Left unsaid is that unless you separate the utilities you cannot charge tenants outside of what they pay for rent.

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  22. #22
    Rust never sleeps. whynot's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    I had a MASSAVE home energy audit done two years ago, worth the time, for sure (two-family, 1923). The auditor replaced any incandescent bulbs with LEDs. If I had a CFL in place, he left it, would not install an LED there. That may have changed by now. He would not leave LEDs for me to install, he had to put them in himself, I guess they don't want them to be sold off. He did leave a free programmable thermostat for me to install (I'll get to it one of these days). This may have changed over time, and probably varies with who's doing the audit.

    I was expecting that he'd audit both apartments, but no, so if you want the whole house done, make sure you tell them how many units you have.

    While he was in the attic he noticed some remnants of "knob and tube" wiring. That will have to be inspected and certified as inactive before they'd consider insulating the house. The first estimate I got from an electrician for K&T inspection was around $1000, so I'll get another estimate, I didn't like the guy's attitude anyway. I'll get to it one of these days.

    Nine years ago I had the two steam boilers replaced with new efficient Burnham units, and converted from oil to gas -- what a difference. (Not MASSAVE, at the time National Grid had a special price on the boilers.) One downside is the new boilers throw off so little heat that the basement is a lot colder. like 52* on cold days, a little chilly if I have to spend any time there. On this point, a friend rents commercial space in a big old building where the building owner had the massive boiler replaced with a spiffy new one. The basement got so cold that pipes were starting to freeze. Something to watch out for.

    One thing with the steam radiators, maybe the same for hot water, they have to be tilted right so that the water (or condensate in the case of steam) will drain and not collect and rot out the bottom of the radiator. In 20 years I replaced two. The first one I did with a friend with a truck. Radiators are heavy. The second one, I had the antique radiator guys replace it. That hurt in a different way. Fortunately, both were on the first floor. I wanted to stay close to original, so I went with these guys Home of America's largest collection of antique cast iron radiators, home heating radiators
    No doubt there are other salvage yards who supply and rebuild radiators.

    Just passing on some experience, others here know a whole heckuva lot more than I do. This is a great thread, thanks.

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    Last edited by whynot; 01-17-17 at 10:18 AM.
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  23. #23
    go faster cdovego's Avatar
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Dealing with this too, tenants left windows open.

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  24. #24
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Mass Save is great and the are a lot of rebates for changing / upgrading the heating system. Just did that at my place few months ago (changed the heating system and got 1k back for early replacement).

    600$ IMO is not that outrageous bill for the heating of a house as you described. Have Mass Save check also the insulation of the walls. I used to live in Brighton (probably there was no insulation in the walls) in a 3BR aprox 1000 sqft where the gas heating bill was around 4-500$ during the winter months (heat set at 69-70F) and we had a programmable thermostat so heat would be mostly off when we were at work.

    if you think your tenants are abusing the heat, get a programmable/Wi-Fi thermostat and see the temperature graph. Mass save gives u 100$ rebate for those.

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  25. #25
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Something strange going on with my home boiler....

    Hey folks,

    I have a detailed update to post on this including 2 additional months of gas bills, findings from mass save audit, as well as a series of measures I have taken on my own.

    Before I type that all up, I have a quick question - I have this Navien NCB-240E combi unit that we installed to replace the old boiler.

    Something strange going on with my home boiler....-img_20170120_122401-jpg

    Due to the urgency created by the old boiler going out in the middle of winter with both units tenanted, we did a plug and play - replaced the single boiler with a single unit that is powering heat and hot water in both units. Later this summer, I plan to install a second NCB-240 unit and split the gas meter between the units.

    Anyway, my question is this. The unit is currently plugged directly into the wall. I believe it uses electricity to run the motors that pump water up into the units to feed the radiators. Which means when the electricity goes out, my gas powered heating system is also down.

    I want to install a battery backup that kicks on automatically. I called Navien and they said to use any UPC/backup solution rated for computers or home electronics. Their unit draws 2 amps.

    Since I am completely illiterate when it comes to electrical things, which of the following backup systems do I need? I want to get one that's heavy duty enough that it can power a second Navien unit down the line as well.

    Amazon.com: CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD PFC Sinewave UPS 1500VA 900W PFC Compatible Mini-Tower: Computers & Accessories

    Amazon.com: APC Back-UPS Pro 1500VA UPS External Battery Backup for Model BR1500G (BR24BPG): Computers & Accessories

    Amazon.com: CyberPower BRG1500AVRLCD UPS 1500VA/900W 12 Outlets AVR LCD USB Ports Mini Tower: Computers & Accessories

    Amazon.com: Tripp Lite 900VA UPS Battery Backup, 480W Eco Green, USB, RJ11, Muted Alarm, 12 Outlets (ECO900UPSM): Computers & Accessories

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