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Tractors - Educate me

  1. #1576
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me


    Concord? Hampton?
    Breezed by the dealer in Hampton the other day. It is smaller than I realized and they do not seem to have much stock. All I could see are the sub-compacts (CS?).
    Is the between size (CX?) new for them. There doesn't seem to be much info on that model. 99% of the info seems to be for the CK series. Which I guess is equivalent to a large Kubota B or a L-series.

    Why Kioti and not something else?

    And HST or gear/shuttle?
    I am very interested in trying to demo a gear/shuttle with a loader. I think I might like it.

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 06-27-20 at 07:11 PM.

  2. #1577
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Top cover or completely open? What was your out the door if you don’t mind sharing?
    Mine is completely open. The 6K price difference for a full cab didn't interest me especially since there is no chance of that model fitting through my garage door where the ROPS model should fit through when folded. I didn't buy a sun shade for it either as I don't think I'll need it. They are cheap enough to add later if need be.

    My out the door price was 32Kish. The CK3510SE is a pretty well loaded tractor so I didn't have to add much but I did include the backhoe, 3rd function kit, and mid-PTO. That number also included the mandatory damage insurance that's necessary when you finance. I wanted the 40HP model but it's a $2K option and is nothing more than a different ECU as the engines are identical. An extra 5HP wasn't worth that much to me.

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  3. #1578
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    So I just pulled the trigger on a new Kioti CK3510SE open station with a backhoe. 0% for 84 months was too hard to pass up.
    A post like this and no pictures? Dude...

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  4. #1579
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    I wanted the 40HP model but it's a $2K option and is nothing more than a different ECU as the engines are identical. An extra 5HP wasn't worth that much to me.
    a Power Commander for tractors ?

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  5. #1580
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Concord? Hampton?
    Breezed by the dealer in Hampton the other day. It is smaller than I realized and they do not seem to have much stock. All I could see are the sub-compacts (CS?).
    Is the between size (CX?) new for them. There doesn't seem to be much info on that model. 99% of the info seems to be for the CK series. Which I guess is equivalent to a large Kubota B or a L-series.
    I bought from Concord Tractor. Out front they had a CS, CX, CK, DK, and RX so you could compare size. The CX is new and appears to be more in line with the smaller framed Kubota B. The CK I'm getting is similar in weight and capacity to the middle sized L (step below the Grand L).

    Why Kioti and not something else?
    I've been kicking tires for many years and Kioti has always had a good value prospect. Their quality has improved considerably and they have a good dealer network for parts. As they have gotten better, their prices have gone up but you still get more for your money than Kubota, Deere, Massey, New Holland, or Mahindra. Kioti makes Bobcat's tractors (which cost a bit more) and I have no loyalty to that dealer so I ruled them out. I was also considering LS, TYM, and Yanmar. I wasn't impressed with anything by Yanmar and my only TYM option was in MA which would mean sales tax. I gave considerable thought to LS because their value prospect is extremely high. If you end up with a healthy one, people seem to love them. Unfortunately there are many stories of people having issues and not being able to get parts or the support they need. There is only one LS dealer in the area (Kingston NH) and they aren't very big.

    Kioti has a pretty large dealer network and parts are easy to come by. Price wise you get more features and capacity for the same money as the major brands. Their warranty is 6 years/unlimited hours and 0% for 84 months sealed the deal.

    And HST or gear/shuttle?
    I am very interested in trying to demo a gear/shuttle with a loader. I think I might like it.
    I got an HST. You'll be hard pressed to find a CK without one. One thing that isn't clear in the Kioti documentation is which type of shuttle is available on which models. I'd consider a shuttle only if it fully synchronized and had a hydraulic clutch. I wasn't interested in having to clutch going from forward to reverse. The base CK series has options for manual gear shift or HST. The Special Edition CK has a 12x12 synchronized shuttle or an HST. I couldn't get an answer if that shuttle was hydraulic or not. They said they haven't sold any and didn't know off hand. They also said that now that the larger DK is available in HST, they've only sold a single shuttle unit to a golf course with everyone picking the HST. HST fits my use case almost perfectly and if I end up in a situation where I'm mowing a field, my model comes with cruise control which makes things easier.

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    Last edited by ZX-12R; 06-27-20 at 08:28 PM.
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  6. #1581
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    a Power Commander for tractors ?
    There's money to be made if someone can figure it out. Especially when you get into the larger tractors with turbos. The same engine covers 47 to 60 HP.

    According to my dealer, Kioti will not give them the tools to program an ECU specifically because they could do this. The dealers only have the ability to read and clear codes.

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  7. #1582
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by butcher bergs View Post
    A post like this and no pictures? Dude...
    It was still crated up. I bought the last one available and it was the only one delivered a couple of days ago that wasn't already spoken for.

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    Last edited by ZX-12R; 06-27-20 at 08:31 PM.
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  8. #1583
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    There's money to be made if someone can figure it out. Especially when you get into the larger tractors with turbos. The same engine covers 47 to 60 HP.

    According to my dealer, Kioti will not give them the tools to program an ECU specifically because they could do this. The dealers only have the ability to read and clear codes.
    for shit & giggles, I just googled "performance tractor tuning" and found chips and maps for almost every brand except Kioti, they are very proprietary.

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  9. #1584
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    I got an HST. You'll be hard pressed to find a CK without one. One thing that isn't clear in the Kioti documentation is which type of shuttle is available on which models. I'd consider a shuttle only if it fully synchronized and had a hydraulic clutch. I wasn't interested in having to clutch going from forward to reverse. The base CK series has options for manual gear shift or HST. The Special Edition CK has a 12x12 synchronized shuttle or an HST. I couldn't get an answer if that shuttle was hydraulic or not. They said they haven't sold any and didn't know off hand. They also said that now that the larger DK is available in HST, they've only sold a single shuttle unit to a golf course with everyone picking the HST. HST fits my use case almost perfectly and if I end up in a situation where I'm mowing a field, my model comes with cruise control which makes things easier.
    Interesting. They advertise gear transmissions on most of their lineup. But dealers don't sell them? Huh.

    It is sweet that you got to kick tires at fairs. I feel like I'm almost serious enough to spend a couple hours hitting all the booths at the Deerfield fair comparing and asking questions.. and it is canceled.

    I've heard a lot of pretty nasty things about LS.

    Enjoy not lifting stuff anymore.

    I spent my day using an ATV winch chained to a tree and some levers to move a bunch of tree trunks around. It sucked. There isn't enough ibuprofen in this house for my tastes right now. I could have done it all in 1/10th the time with a damned bucket loader. (I think.) At least the price was right.

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  10. #1585

    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    Mine is completely open. The 6K price difference for a full cab didn't interest me especially since there is no chance of that model fitting through my garage door where the ROPS model should fit through when folded. I didn't buy a sun shade for it either as I don't think I'll need it. They are cheap enough to add later if need be.

    My out the door price was 32Kish. The CK3510SE is a pretty well loaded tractor so I didn't have to add much but I did include the backhoe, 3rd function kit, and mid-PTO. That number also included the mandatory damage insurance that's necessary when you finance. I wanted the 40HP model but it's a $2K option and is nothing more than a different ECU as the engines are identical. An extra 5HP wasn't worth that much to me.
    Seems like under $400/month with insurance included. NOT BAD at all!!!

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  11. #1586
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Interesting. They advertise gear transmissions on most of their lineup. But dealers don't sell them? Huh.
    I only really looked at the CK and DK series tractors and decided that the DK was unnecessarily large for most of what I was doing. Both the CK and DK have "SE" versions that come with extra bells and whistles. In the case of the base CK, you can get a traditional unsynchronized H-pattern or an HST. The non-HST does sell because of its price and simplicity (usually tied to a 26 HP engine with no DPF). When you jump to the CK "SE" models, you have the option for the 12x12 shuttle or the same HST as the base model. My dealer doesn't stock the shuttle version of the CK because no one has ever ordered one from them. They said throughout the country, the H-pattern sells quite a bit more than the shuttle and the HST sells way more than both the alternatives combined. The shuttles start becoming more popular in the larger tractors that are destined for working in open fields.

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    Last edited by ZX-12R; 06-27-20 at 09:11 PM.
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  12. #1587
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Miscellaneous comments. One friend has a Kioti from the dealer in Enfield, NH and is happy.

    • Those Kiotis are highly regarded and very popular. A lot of their options cost less than on Kubota.
    • The operator station can be entered from either side.
    • They use the JD-style two pedals vs. the treadle.
    • Operator reports are the engine is noisy and a few have cold-start problems but otherwise highly reliable & durable.


    They slot in-between several Kuboti. Note that L series do not have center PTO available. From Kubota website, similarly equipped with backhoe, minus rebate and financing discount of $3,000. No idea what real Dealer prices are.

    L3301HST: $32,151.
    L3901HST: $33,503.
    L3560HST: $38,663.

    Max term on Kubota 0% loan is 72 months. But you can bundle Land Pride implements in with the tractor.

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    Last edited by Garandman; 06-29-20 at 09:58 AM.
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  13. #1588
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    I only really looked at the CK and DK series tractors and decided that the DK was unnecessarily large for most of what I was doing. Both the CK and DK have "SE" versions that come with extra bells and whistles. In the case of the base CK, you can get a traditional unsynchronized H-pattern or an HST. The non-HST does sell because of its price and simplicity (usually tied to a 26 HP engine with no DPF). When you jump to the CK "SE" models, you have the option for the 12x12 shuttle or the same HST as the base model. My dealer doesn't stock the shuttle version of the CK because no one has ever ordered one from them. They said throughout the country, the H-pattern sells quite a bit more than the shuttle and the HST sells way more than both the alternatives combined. The shuttles start becoming more popular in the larger tractors that are destined for working in open fields.
    I'm really surprised they don't even stock a shuttle shift. Are they really that bad? A straight gear drive does sound like a pain for loader work. But a shuttle sounds pretty reasonably usable. Word I had was there was usually a $1500-2000 price delta between that and HST. That's real money.

    CK-SE with the shuttle shift doesn't sound too bad. Especially with the "auto" PTO arrangement the SE comes with.

    https://youtu.be/M8ftOa4Gy_0?t=251

    As I say, I would like to demo a shuttle shift tractor/loader one day and see for myself.

    I have no interest in a machine as big as the Kioti CK anyway. The new CX sounds like the right size for me. Not much info out there on that model.

    I think I have my heart set on a Kubota B23 or 2601 with a loader and backhoe. Add a straight rear blade for snow for now. Plus a set of those edge tamers G-man is on about. Try that for snow for a while, keep the walk behind blower for the walkway and detail cleanup. Keep the old Crapsman mower for grass. Maybe add a blower before long for the driveway.
    Mahindra seems to have a solid equivalent in the Max 26. Massey has something similar too. LS and most of the other brands do not impress via their spec sheets and reputations. Sounds like the Kioti CX is in that same part of the matrix somewhere.

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  14. #1589
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    I was mistaken about the manual transmission. It is synchronized. The 12x12 shuttle still requires a clutch (not a power shuttle).

    Hereís a video I found that shows all the transmissions for the CK including their operation. They count the HST twice even though itís the same with a couple extra bells and whistles between the base and SE.


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  15. #1590
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    i've been eyeing the DK series. after running the rental Case around and having to shift F&R constantly . it is not that bad. + you'l' get more power to the PTO. I thinking i need a flail mower more that a brush hog

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  16. #1591
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    I was mistaken about the manual transmission. It is synchronized. The 12x12 shuttle still requires a clutch (not a power shuttle).

    Here’s a video I found that shows all the transmissions for the CK including their operation. They count the HST twice even though it’s the same with a couple extra bells and whistles between the base and SE.
    That's a good rundown & demo. Camera work could be a bit better, especially on the base 9x3 manual option. But hey, he's a tractor salesman, not a videographer. So that's fair eh.

    "..their local dealer really doesn't stock them, which is weird.. uhm.."

    https://youtu.be/fGBulAqpePY?t=476

    This seems pretty okay to me. Especially if knocks a few grand off the price.
    HST options lose the split break too. Kind of a drag. IIRC the Kubotas are split brake even with HST.
    Shuttle with foot operated throttle seems pretty attractive to me. But dealers do not stock huh? Drag.

    Messicks has a video demonstrating the B-series with the gear trans. I believe that option is not a synchronized trans. And it definitely is not shuttle.

    That linked throttle bit on the CK-SE HST looks pretty nice. Having the machine pegged all the time to work kind of bugs me.
    Don't you get more power with less pedal on HST? So under some circumstances you would still want to throttle up for serious loader work and such anyway, right?

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  17. #1592
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Having grown up on tractors with split brakes, Iím a little bummed about the HST not having them. On the upside, the CK has an 8.something foot turning radius and the efficiency in direction changes it offers makes up for any other shortcomings.

    In regards to engine RPMs, all these tractors are designed to run at their peak power RPMs for hours on end. Thereís also no requirement to have them pegged either. With the HST, setting your throttle to something other than pegged only limits your top speed. You still have infinite variability up to that point.

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  18. #1593
    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    I run 1500 to 1800 RPM for nearly everything.

    On extremely rare occasions I'll go WOT when mowing with my 60" mower and even then it's only because the grass is 3'+ tall. Even that mini ex I ran a few weeks ago was only at 3/4 throttle (no idea on RPM because the display was broken) and it did just fine. I know there are operators who run WOT all the time. I don't get it but some folks feel it's necessary.

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  19. #1594
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Sorry guys. "Pegged" is the wrong word to use there. I just meant you could leave the throttle at the lowest stop and still scoot across the yard at a good clip when needed, then immediately drop back to idle just by letting off the go pedal. I could see how that would be a nice feature with a hydrostatic.

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  20. #1595
    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    What's this about the brakes on these new machines? Missed the comments the first time....are mfg's making them with one solid pedal now?

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  21. #1596
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Some do and my model in HST is one of them.

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  22. #1597
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Bergs... Do you run a grapple or have any suggestions for one? I'm looking at the short tine root rake style grapples.

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    Last edited by ZX-12R; 07-01-20 at 07:42 PM.
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  23. #1598
    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    No grapple. I kept the bucket because of the type of work I'm doing. A grapple would be hugely beneficial however I wouldn't be able to move material without a changeover which equals loss of time....and also more crap to strap to the trailer.

    Current setup is a mechanical thumb on the 'hoe and ratchet rake for the bucket. The thumb acts as my grapple when needed and the ratchet rake is a godsend on its own for more detailed grading and also for clearing vegetation.

    Sorry I couldn't be more helpful for suggestions.

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  24. #1599
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    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Our L3200HST has split brakes. I've used it maybe five times in six years.

    Used the differential lock (a lever you step on under the operator seat) much more often.

    Another vote for Ratchet Rake. Could probably use a grapple I've cleared almost a mile of trails with the ratchet rake and rotary mower. Think you'd want over 40hp for a grapple to be effective in the woods we have.

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    Last edited by Garandman; 07-01-20 at 09:06 PM.
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  25. #1600

    Re: Tractors - Educate me

    Do you know those hydro buckets with build in rakes? Do they make them for these tractors or they are only for skid steers?
    Tractors - Educate me-91d98819-8402-4fa9-a2a3-2db594615c26

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