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A Case for Athiesim....

  1. #101
    Rider. Just a rider... DucDave's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....


    Awesome Mark! that's a riot!!! had me screaming like a little girl...

    ...again!

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    "A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
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  2. #102
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by DucDave View Post
    Finally!

    Yes, you could argue that Athiesm is a religion. Let me be clear. The reason it could qualify as a religion is because athiests BELIEVE there is no God. We don't know. And when the religious can admit that they too Believe, then we have a place in the middle to start. Problem is, the most dangerous of the zealots claim to KNOW...which is horseshit.

    My belief is based on science, subject to change based on observation and test. It's hardly arrogant. In fact, I would argue it's actually a very humble approach...

    What's yours based on? Which set of dogma? The Bible? The Quran? The Torah?
    Atheism:God :: Black:Color

    or maybe

    Atheism:God :: White:Color

    Which of the above analogies you believe is more accurate might depend on your background. A scientist may favor the first, an artist the second. The scientist and the artist could argue indefinitely, with neither giving any quarter. They would learn little about either science or art and would likely just end up calling each other light-heads and pigmenters. Most likely, they would alienate themselves from each other and from the silent others who agree it could only possibly be white or it must be black. In the end, the only thing they would agree on is their mutual hatred of gray. But I believe that no one who hates gray can be truly happy.

    Meanwhile, instead of science Vs. art, all that time and thought and energy could have been spent discussing:

    Soulless : Honda :: Red : Ducati

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    Last edited by oVTo; 12-29-10 at 06:43 PM.
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  3. #103
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    I don't feel like writing anything, so I'll just post these

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  4. #104
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by DucDave View Post
    Paul...thanks for weighing in...!
    Weighing in on what? The fact that I think it's absolute bullshit for anyone to go around saying that someone wasn't "truly" an addict since they didn't find God during their recovery?

    Brian, you haven't the slightest clue what addiction is if that's how you feel.

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  5. #105
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    I'm sorry you haven't had a good experience with AA or NA. I would encourage you to hook up with some good, sober people who have the program. They aren't all drug buddies, and they certainly won't try to force anything on you other than good recovery. If you go on believing that strength of will and character is all that you need, you'll struggle. It's called a dry drunk or dry druggie, and it's no fun. I tried both ways, so I do know what I'm talking about dude. This isn't about offending anyone. You wouldn't be offended if you were totally recovered, and you sure as hell wouldn't get angry over someone giving God credit where credit is due.
    Im not saying they are all drug buddies, i pointed out the reasons i avoided the system. Addiction treatment in this country is appalling. It makes me sick to know that more addicts use detox and rehab as a way to afford their habit again, and it makes me even sicker to know that you can;t be admitted unless you are high....

    I swear if it were different my best friend would still be alive today. but i digress.

    You cant take something as large in someones life and credit it to your beliefs. Its just not so. Sorry. And you can think i have struggled all you want, but my years clean have been the BEST years of my life. the only struggle i have had has been being put on a medication that to me was the absolute worst thing that could have ever happened to me, but here i am not running back to the drugs i used, and although yeah its been a struggle there its not like it would be any different for any other user....

    put yourself in the position that the same thing you cleaned yourself up from is given to you as fucking needed.... yeah not something most equate to a possibility but hell you have to deal with what your given. and i would go into more detail but i would hate to see the overall connection you try to make with it all....

    I really do understand you POV, but i believe 100% you are wrong for denouncing everyone who ever got sober without finding "God"

    I didnt find answers for years after i went through what i did, and i dont consider anything you have said with relation to true recovery and God to be relevant or true in any way.

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  6. #106
    Rider. Just a rider... DucDave's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by oVTo View Post
    Atheism:God :: Black:Color

    or maybe

    Atheism:God :: White:Color

    Which of the above analogies you believe is more accurate might depend on your background. A scientist may favor the first, an artist the second. The scientist and the artist could argue indefinitely, with neither giving any quarter. They would learn little about either science or art and would likely just end up calling each other light-heads and pigmenters. Most likely, they would alienate themselves from each other and from the silent others who agree it could only possibly be white or it must be black. In the end, the only thing they would agree on is their mutual hatred of gray. But I believe that no one who hates gray can be truly happy.



    Meanwhile, instead of science Vs. art, all that time and thought and energy could have been spent discussing:

    Soulless : Honda :: Red : Ducati
    Athiesm:God::Black:Color

    Where Black represents the absence of all color and athiesm represents the absence of God...

    seems the closer to me...

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  7. #107
    "Plymouth's Fastest" BrianC's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by DucDave View Post
    Back to back days, added up over time, are what count. Sober experience is what counts. A day at a time....

    There's a reason they used to tell new comers to take the cotton out of their ears and stick it in their mouth.

    ...at least, that's what the guy I know says....

    (BTW, he'd be happy to meet you at a meeting sometime. So you can call him a liar to his face and maybe get a sense of how AA really works...!)
    Back to back days of white knucklin' it count for nothing. Maybe sympathy. Sobriety is so much more than abstinence. Sobriety can only be achieved when you are in touch with God. Don't believe me still? Go to any AA meeting and on the wall you'll see the steps. Step 3: "Turned my life and my will over to the care of God, as I understand him", Step 11: Sought thru prayer and meditation to improve my concious contact with God, etc... . Why would it be "dangerous" to tell someone in AA that they need God, when the Program of AA itself professes that? That is where you are confusing me. Trust me, people who claim they are sober w/out God never had a problem to begin with. I would rather have 1 day of conscious contact w/God and serenity thru doing the program right than 30 yrs of bullshitting myself. I am a person who follows the program the way it is laid out, and its been working for me for years. It annoys the hell out of me when people spread the wrong word about AA. For the record, it is most certainly a place where the message of God comes thru with every speaker. We welcome all people and have no affiliation w/religion, but that doesn't mean we approve of people spreading false rumors, like sobriety can be achieve without God's help. That is the number one rule that was told to me by my sponsor when I first came to AA. "No human power will ever get you sober". I know it's true firsthand because for years I had tried on my own will, and only after I did the steps was I able to have the desire for Alchohol completely removed.

    Your friend should go to more groups that actually follow the program of AA. If he did, he would hear what I've said over and over again. That is where I first heard a speaker say, "if anyone in this room thinks they got sober without God's help, I'm going to say you didn't have a problem to begin with". I truly believe that, but don't let that offend you. Who cares what I believe? I'm just making a case that God exists. He has to exist because if not, I'd be dead. I know it wasn't my will or inner strength that got me to stop drinking, but after I asked God for help, Voila I'm sober for years on end? Coincidence that my intense cravings for alchohol just disappeared after over 15 years of boozing heavily? I don't think so. Don't be offended, just accept that there is a power greater than you!

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  8. #108
    Life is good! gadget's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....


    wow, yep the only solution to being an addict is AA.

    I wonder what people did about their addictions before AA was created by God?

    Perhaps, he created AA at the same time he created addictions, 6000 years ago when he created the universe and gave dinosaurs to Jesus as pets.

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  9. #109
    "Plymouth's Fastest" BrianC's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget View Post

    wow, yep the only solution to being an addict is AA.

    I wonder what people did about their addictions before AA was created by God?

    Perhaps, he created AA at the same time he created addictions, 6000 years ago when he created the universe and gave dinosaurs to Jesus as pets.
    It's the only solution that I know of which works. Know any others? I'd really be interested in hearing 'em.

    You want to know what happened to addicts before AA? Jails, Institutions, or Death.

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    LRRS am #121

    "So this is what your race program has become... the back of a pickup truck huh?" -PK

  10. #110
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    Don't be offended, just accept that there is a power greater than you!
    i'm happy that you aren't a boozehound anymore, but srsly?

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  11. #111
    "Plymouth's Fastest" BrianC's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    i'm happy that you aren't a boozehound anymore, but srsly?
    You know I'm losing sleep until all of you start believing in God

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    LRRS am #121

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  12. #112
    Lifer NobodySpecific's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    Sobriety can only be achieved when you are in touch with God. Don't believe me still? Go to any AA meeting and on the wall you'll see the steps. Step 3: "Turned my life and my will over to the care of God, as I understand him", Step 11: Sought thru prayer and meditation to improve my concious contact with God, etc...
    How does that prove anything? That just shows that AA uses a program that heavily revolves around god, it has no bearing on
    1) the effectiveness of such a technique
    2) the effectiveness of any other technique
    3) the existence of god
    4) the connection between god and sobriety

    Why would it be "dangerous" to tell someone in AA that they need God, when the Program of AA itself professes that?
    Because if you don't believe in god, and religion makes you uncomfortable, then AA will be written off as simply another religion. It's dangerous because it might prevent people from even trying, since you teach them that sobriety is not possible without god. If there is no god, then sobriety isn't possible, so why even bother trying?

    Trust me, people who claim they are sober w/out God never had a problem to begin with.
    You don't see how that is insulting to people that get sober without any sort of connection to god? It's tantamount to saying "you faked it".

    "No human power will ever get you sober". I know it's true firsthand because for years I had tried on my own will, and only after I did the steps was I able to have the desire for Alchohol completely removed.
    Anecdotal evidence != fact
    Just because it was this way for you has no bearing on anybody else's recover or addiction.

    I'm just making a case that God exists. He has to exist because if not, I'd be dead. I know it wasn't my will or inner strength that got me to stop drinking, but after I asked God for help, Voila I'm sober for years on end? Coincidence that my intense cravings for alchohol just disappeared after over 15 years of boozing heavily? I don't think so. Don't be offended, just accept that there is a power greater than you!
    Or it just means that you needed to believe that somebody else was helping you. Your experiences aren't considered evidence of god's existence to anybody except yourself. Maybe you got sober because you finally were truly ready to commit to a different kind of life, one that happens to revolve around god. Perhaps you could have substituted anything else and it would have been just as effective. Devotion to exercise, or learning, or boating, or whatever. Instead you chose a devotion to god. Some people see it as trading one addiction for another, and could just as easily claim that while you are sober, you haven't been cured of any sort of addiction, but rather just changed your focus.

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  13. #113
    Just Registered R1's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    It's the only solution that I know of which works. Know any others? I'd really be interested in hearing 'em.

    You want to know what happened to addicts before AA? Jails, Institutions, or Death.
    Are you retarded?

    Private rehabs in this country are the most successful around... problem is they cost big bucks.... not many can even afford a 3 day stay... they work. and they do not involve a higher power as the main focus....

    its the treatment of addiction that is the big problem not the system in which the program follows.

    our state and federal run programs are DESIGNED to keep you as a user be it clinics or institutions and the way this country treats drugs as a whole makes the whole process an impossibly expensive task to create better more accessible treatment facilities....

    so AA is one of the few free answers that still rely on personal strength of will and character and the insertion of God can be taken or left and in either instance someone who is actively trying to better their situation has the ability to get clean....

    Im not trying to insult you but you sound like a very close minded person who really just wants to see things from only one perspective and its not beneficial to anyone you try to help in the future... people in recovery need options because most find there is only one way out before they seek help and I now personally what some will do to finally stop it all....

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  14. #114
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    You know I'm losing sleep until all of you start believing in God
    well say a prayer for me then.

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  15. #115
    Just Registered R1's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
    Trust me, people who claim they are sober w/out God never had a problem to begin with.
    Seriously you need to learn about what the fuck you are talking about....

    You must be soooo right about everything if you can somehow make this little leap....

    Im sad for whoever you try to help that doesnt see things exactly your way....

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  16. #116
    Rider. Just a rider... DucDave's Avatar
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    Brian is what's referred to as an AA Preacher and his ilk is generally ignored and marginalized. Or, he is a newcomer who should really sit up front, listen, and try not to do any harm.

    My suggestion is we ignore his rants.

    There have been several great observations by others and some good suggestions.

    Let me add. If anyone reading this thread ever needs help in recovery, PM me and I'll put you in touch with my friend!

    Also, none of these rants constitute anything approaching a compelling proof that God is real...rather, this demonstrates the purely idiotic positions a few of these dickwad zealots will take...

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    Last edited by DucDave; 12-30-10 at 05:22 PM.
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  17. #117
    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Dave, your deleted post was better.

    Pussy.


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  18. #118
    Rider. Just a rider... DucDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergs
    Dave, your deleted post was better.

    Pussy.

    I know...but the one I posted is truer ...

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  19. #119
    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    You can lead a horse to the water, Dave. You know this already.



    Come up to the house tomorrow and we can talk it over with some hot chocolate.

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  20. #120
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Horse? Or Mule?

    YouTube - Family Guy - Like Arguing with a Mule



    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    It's equally arrogant and incorrect to tell someone you know there is no "God" as it is to tell them you know "God" exists.
    Lotta "tellin" around here....

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 12-30-10 at 05:47 PM.
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  21. #121
    Rider. Just a rider... DucDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergs
    You can lead a horse to the water, Dave. You know this already.



    Come up to the house tomorrow and we can talk it over with some hot chocolate.
    Looking forward to...bringing donuts!

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  22. #122
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Some of the stupidest shit I've ever read on the internet was included in this thread. Brian, only through God have you been able to achieve so highly in this catagory.

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  23. #123
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by eboos View Post
    Some of the stupidest shit I've ever read on the internet was included in this thread. Brian, only through God have you been able to achieve so highly in this catagory.

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  24. #124
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    Horse? Or Mule?

    YouTube - Family Guy - Like Arguing with a Mule




    Lotta "tellin" around here....
    ...or...


    ass

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  25. #125
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    Re: A Case for Athiesim....

    i do love it when boos is funny.

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