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Concerned about U.S. future?

  1. #76
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?


    Yeah. No. I don't agree with any of that.

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  2. #77
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Well, that's a pretty ignorant and prejudiced way to view all the Americans who live in rural places.

    The only actual right and fair answer to the Electoral College conundrum would be to reconfigure the states to all be roughly equal in population, so that their power in the Senate and in the EC would be about proportional. With 330M Americans, and 50 states, that's about 6.6M per state. SO consolidate a few, and break up a few, until you get reasonable parity, with no state being more than, say, twice the population of any other. THAT'S the core of the imbalance. Any other "solution" is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. CA has about 125 times the population of Wyoming.

    PhilB
    It was a generalization. Are you denying that the massively vast majority of republican voters from the welfare belt are single-issue voters based on religion?

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  3. #78
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Just to clarify, not necessarily pointing at the democrats. There are sore losers on all sides. The point is not if they ever could or would win through the EC, the point is if they did we wouldn't be hearing this from them. It's a stance driven by bitter emotion, not logic or a genuine understanding of the EC.

    I personally believe the reason behind rural America's lean to the right has more to do with the way of life living in the open brings. Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying about why you think the EC tilts in favor of the republicans, but I don't think it's as prominent as many make it out to be.

    I know someone who grew up and lived in NYC until he retired at 45 years old (He was an investment banker). Looking to be somewhere quiet, his retirement led him to northern VT where he bought a ton of land. The rural environment has completely captured him and he lives an entirely different life. Along with this change came a huge shift in his political views. He is a great example of how where we live impacts our lives and changes our views. This is why it's important that rural communities get fair representation at the federal level. Life is very different in VT than it is in NYC and it's important to give ways of life proper representation, not population. That's what the EC is about.
    OK, you won me over. I don't remember seeing any effigies of George W hanging from a tree when he won though. I also didn't see much hand-wringing from the dems when Clinton got impeached.

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  4. #79
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    OK, you won me over. I don't remember seeing any effigies of George W hanging from a tree when he won though. I also didn't see much hand-wringing from the dems when Clinton got impeached.
    I clearly remember Bush effigies so I got curious and did some quick googling. (Hello NSA, what list(s) am I on now?) My memory was correct, you can find G.W.B. burned in effigy protest going right back to 2000. I found a study on effigies as protest in the world and it was interesting to note a SHARP increase in their documented use starting in 2000. A good chunk of that is switching to digital media making finding evidence/documentation easier but it does coincide with an uptick in print reporting of them as well. There were also Clinton effigies, Regan... Canadians were doing burning effigies of Iacocca in the early 80s. This turned into some interesting reading. On Clinton, Dems including Biden back at the time were running around on media calling the impeachment a "partisan lynching", Nadler called it a "lynch mob" so... take the blue tinted glasses off for a bit?

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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    And I'm now half tempted to see why Dems are Blue, Reps are Red... I swear it was literally a random thing chosen by a news team for election coverage way back when or something similarly silly.

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  6. #81
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Fair to say there's a difference between burning an effigy and hanging one?

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  7. #82
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    And I'm now half tempted to see why Dems are Blue, Reps are Red... I swear it was literally a random thing chosen by a news team for election coverage way back when or something similarly silly.
    Roughly similar to the Donkey/Elephant thing, no?

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  8. #83
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Fair to say there's a difference between burning an effigy and hanging one?
    Fuck you guys I got it, I was wrong. Both effigies ended up dead, so it doesn't matter how it happened. Right?

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  9. #84
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Fair to say there's a difference between burning an effigy and hanging one?
    The report I found didn't separate out burning from hanging, etc. Just effigies destroyed/abused/maimed for protest. So burned, hung, or heads on pikes all counted. (And now I need to go back and see if Bush's head on a pike in Game of Thrones was mentioned... technically not a protest per say.) Between the two options, both are nasty ways to go as I doubt a mob is going to hang you properly so your neck snaps cleanly.

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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    The report I found didn't separate out burning from hanging, etc. Just effigies destroyed/abused/maimed for protest. So burned, hung, or heads on pikes all counted. (And now I need to go back and see if Bush's head on a pike in Game of Thrones was mentioned... technically not a protest per say.) Between the two options, both are nasty ways to go as I doubt a mob is going to hang you properly so your neck snaps cleanly.
    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Fuck you guys I got it, I was wrong. Both effigies ended up dead, so it doesn't matter how it happened. Right?
    Well damn, glad I got it right the second time around.

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  11. #86
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    So I should respect a retard who voted for Trump because he agrees with Trump's racist views? Got it.

    If you can't contribute, please go and post in the Trump shitshow thread.
    I would expect you were flipping me off as you wrote that...

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  12. #87
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    https://loudounnow.com/2020/01/08/le...emmett-hanger/

    As a first-term Democrat from Northern Virginia and a veteran Republican from the Shenandoah Valley, we believe it’s time for a new caucus that can build a lasting culture of bipartisanship. As co-chairs, we are proud to announce the Commonwealth Caucus, a member-driven bipartisan group in the Virginia General Assembly that incorporates representatives from both chambers. One of our initial policy priorities will be structural electoral reform.

    This newly created caucus will increase bipartisanship by facilitating conversations between legislators not only across party lines but across chambers. As of this writing, fourteen members of the Virginia General Assembly have committed to joining the caucus including seven Republicans and seven Democrats.

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  13. #88
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    So I should respect a retard who voted for Trump because he agrees with Trump's racist views? Got it.

    If you can't contribute, please go and post in the Trump shitshow thread.
    Sir, that axe cuts both ways.

    Your posts are routinely dismissive of any disagreement. Not a good approach to learning new things.

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  14. #89
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    I think the divisiveness we're seeing now is partially the result of the lunatic fringe element taking over the Republican party. Are Trump/McConnell/Gaetz/etc really Republicans, or are they opportunists that will rationalize any political philosophy to hold on to power?

    One thing that's really different now is that you're seeing a whole lot of traditional Republicans rooting for Democratic candidates. I've certainly never seen this before in my lifetime. In this sense, the two parties are coming together!

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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    I think the divisiveness we're seeing now is partially the result of the lunatic fringe element taking over the Republican party. Are Trump/McConnell/Gaetz/etc really Republicans, or are they opportunists that will rationalize any political philosophy to hold on to power?
    Mitch and Rubio are two shining examples. Two guys that talked lots of shit before Trump got elected. Trump walked all over Rubio and made fun of his wife even.

    Now they are both Trumps little bitches. Mitch has always been an opportunist. Rubio is probably shooting for like a supreme court seat appointment.

    People are quick to forget that when Republican primaries were going on, almost nobody was a Trump supporter, even within the party, he was the laughing stock and a minority.

    He bullied his way through the primary to everybody's dismay with his unheard of tactics and everybody fell in line. Now you will rarely find a Republican that is not a die hard Trump supporter. Cause if you're not for him, you're the enemy within the party.

    See previous presidential candidates that have been ousted as RINO's. Literally top picks, creme of the crop republicans from 2008 and 2012 are now outcasts. McCain and Romney. It's mind blowing.

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  16. #91
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Again, the premise of this thread is that a majority of Americans do not belong to either party. Elections are often decided by a small number of extremist party partisans voting in primaries. The current system is broken because it disenfranchises those Centrists.

    It goes without saying that partisans will always point to the others as the “bad guys.” Well, no, it gets said over and over and over by those partisans.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    I think the divisiveness we're seeing now is partially the result of the lunatic fringe element taking over the Republican party. Are Trump/McConnell/Gaetz/etc really Republicans, or are they opportunists that will rationalize any political philosophy to hold on to power?////
    In blaming only Republicans, you don’t appear to have heard of the #WalkAway movement.


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    Last edited by Garandman; 09-16-20 at 11:03 AM.
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  17. #92
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Congrats. You’re playing right into Russia’s hand.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WalkAway_campaign
    First “source”. Keep googling if you need more.

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  18. #93
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    To me the issue starts with the fact that the average person lacks the knowledge to truly understand what is going on in Washington. Not because he/she is of substandard intelligence, but because lawmaking is a complicated subject that's far out of the scope of our daily lives. The disconnect leads politicians into putting on a show to get votes. Unfortunately the show these days has spun out of control. They are targeting the fringe on both sides of the spectrum instead of trying to reach the reasonable middle ground.

    The second factor is the media. They are cultivating narratives that projects extremes. It amazes me how many people point to the news and say "see what I'm talking about?". The media is driven by ratings which come from generating captivating content. Drill down further into what captivating content is and you'll see why they project the extremes. I'll point to the open letter written by an MSNBC exec who recently left the network. It's a pretty good inside look at how networks are run.

    So in the end, a more responsible approach by both the media and politicians could be part of the solution. The question is how do we drive that?

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  19. #94
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Again, the premise of this thread is that a majority of Americans do not belong to either party. Elections are often decided by a small number of extremist party partisans voting in primaries. The current system is broken because it disenfranchises those Centrists.

    It goes without saying that partisans will always point to the others as the “bad guys.” Well, no, it gets said over and over and over by those partisans.

    In blaming only Republicans, you don’t appear to have heard of the #WalkAway movement.
    Is really walking away if he's been a vocal supporter since 2017? Most likely a supporter even before that?

    https://hornet.com/stories/ricky-reb...ump-supporter/

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  20. #95
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Congrats. You’re playing right into Russia’s hand.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WalkAway_campaign
    First “source”. Keep googling if you need more.
    Not the point: but it does prove the point. Point is that party partisans always blame the other guys. Now we will have some Republican partisan show something about how the Chinese are trying to influence the election in Biden’s favor.

    Foreign governments have interfered with American Democracy for decades. If you read the book “Our Man In Washington,” it’s about the German and British efforts to manipulate public opinion and political action in their favor. They were both throwing around a lot of money. The British feel they won. Ever wonder how in the world anybody agreed to the Lend-Lease program or somehow decided it didn’t violate Neutrality?

    But they can only amplify currents, not create them. There were strong isolationist and interventionist movements in existence.

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    Last edited by Garandman; 09-16-20 at 11:17 AM.
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  21. #96
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Not the point: but it does prove the point. Point is that party partisans always blame the other guys. Now we will have some Republican partisan show something about how the Chinese are trying to influence the election in Biden’s favor.

    Foreign governments have interfered with American Democracy for decades. If you read the book “Our Man In Washington,” it’s about the German and British efforts to manipulate public opinion and political action in their favor. They were both throwing around a lot of money. The British feel they won. Ever wonder how in the world anybody agreed to the Lend-Lease program or somehow decided it didn’t violate Neutrality?

    But they can only amplify currents, not create them. There were strong isolationist and interventionist movements in existence.

    I am not partisan, I am anti trump. That's American at it's core, no more, no less.

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  22. #97
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I am not partisan, I am anti trump. That's American at it's core, no more, no less.
    Are you, or anyone, happy with the choice of Biden or Trump?

    How do we get back to a system where we have better options?

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  23. #98
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Elections are often decided by a small number of extremist party partisans voting in primaries. The current system is broken because it disenfranchises those Centrists.
    This really leaves me scratching my head. Y'all think partisan "extremists" went into the D primaries this year and picked ... Joe Biden?! Really? Why would you think progressives would pick him over Bernie or Warren or Booker or whoever?

    As a conservative turned progressive (thanks to trump) I am annoyed that one of the more left leaning candidates didn't get the nod. I blame the fact that trump is running as an incumbent. Left a lot of republicans open to register as democrats and vote in that primary instead. I think if there were contentious primaries in both parties the D's would have someone much more progressive on their ticket. Instead there is the consensus candidate; Biden. Not too hot, not too cold. Perfectly bland.

    You want your centrist, here he is. He may be further to the left than you like. But believe you me, he's a heck of a lot further to the right than some of us would have liked.

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  24. #99
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Are you, or anyone, happy with the choice of Biden or Trump?

    How do we get back to a system where we have better options?
    I refuse to accept the premise of this question. We've never had "better" options. We've always had (at least in my lifetime) the lesser of evils. This choice has always been a compromise.

    That said, yes. I am perfectly happy with the choice of Biden. He's a broad-base, mass appeal, middle of the road kind of guy. He's decent. He's respected. Outside of some silly gaffs he is pretty easy to take seriously. And he surrounds himself with smart people that he listens too, not sycophants.

    Were I in charge of things we'd be electing someone much more progressive. But this guy is the compromise candidate. And that's okay.

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  25. #100
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Concerned about U.S. future?

    Well, I’m feeling much better!

    No one is a partisan, our electoral choices are fine, and the system works!

    What a relief!

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