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Government shut down

  1. #1
    Dictionary quoting knob stoinkythepig's Avatar
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    Government shut down


    Correct me of I'm wrong, but the biggest hurdle to getting Democratic support for a bill to end the shut down is funding for the wall that Trump won't let go of. AFAIK, both sides support DACA in one way or another.

    If Trump were smart, he would point to substantially reduced illegal immigration numbers on our southern border as proof that his immigration policies are working bigly (this might not even be a lie), thus making the wall unnecessary. His core supporters won't care at all and he'd gain support overall with this decision. He could then state that instead of the wall, he would prefer to fund infrastructure projects with the billions he was going to spend on the wall. I'm sure he could get someone in congress to add this to a bill to fund the government. This would be a massive win for him and the GOP, Democrats won't lose face, and there's no way it would fail in Congress since there would be too much support from both sides. A "master negotiator" would do this.

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    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Government shut down

    Biggest bullshit part of this gubmint shutdown is that people end up getting paid for the time they didn't work after it's all over.

    My sister works for the NIH. Last time she got two weeks off or something for the last shutdown. Ended up paying her for the time she didn't work. WTF?

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by stoinkythepig View Post
    If Trump were smart...
    One can dream.

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  4. #4
    I've been here before. Mustang's Avatar
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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Biggest bullshit part of this gubmint shutdown is that people end up getting paid for the time they didn't work after it's all over.

    My sister works for the NIH. Last time she got two weeks off or something for the last shutdown. Ended up paying her for the time she didn't work. WTF?
    Sort of like when your stove breaks, and you and the Mrs. can't agree on how much to spend on the new stove. You bitch and moan at eachother for weeks; no money is spent, and no stove is acquired. Eventually, she wears you down and tells you that you will spend $10,000 on the new stove that cooks for her. You buy it that day, but put it on a Home Depot card because, well, you don't have funding appropriated for a $10,000 stove - you'd only contemplated a $2,000 stove you were trying to get her to buy. So now you have the new stove (which everyone knew you were going to get; I mean, you need to cook food, right?), but you pay it off over a number of years.

    Now, this analogy isn't entirely relatable, since it's not like your uncooked food was backing up next to the stove during this whole process...but it's a similar concept (at least in government logic).

    The USG still owes back salaries to some of the employees furloughed back in 2013...crazy.

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    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Government shut down

    It's just like working for a salary anywhere else, isn't it? If I have salaried employees and I close my business for a couple of weeks for renovations, I still have to pay them don't I?.

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by stoinkythepig View Post
    Correct me of I'm wrong, but the biggest hurdle to getting Democratic support for a bill to end the shut down is funding for the wall that Trump won't let go of. AFAIK, both sides support DACA in one way or another.

    If Trump were smart, he would point to substantially reduced illegal immigration numbers on our southern border as proof that his immigration policies are working bigly (this might not even be a lie), thus making the wall unnecessary. His core supporters won't care at all and he'd gain support overall with this decision. He could then state that instead of the wall, he would prefer to fund infrastructure projects with the billions he was going to spend on the wall. I'm sure he could get someone in congress to add this to a bill to fund the government. This would be a massive win for him and the GOP, Democrats won't lose face, and there's no way it would fail in Congress since there would be too much support from both sides. A "master negotiator" would do this.
    I believe that the contentious issue was in fact DACA. Both sides support something being done but haven't been able to work anything out. Dems have gotten fed up with progress being made in Congress only to have the White House torpedo it via tweet (hence Schumer's "like negotiating with Jell-O" remark, and Graham's statement that his party's president is not a reliable negotiating partner). The Democrats used the shutdown to force the issue (much as the GOP did over healthcare when the government shut down under Obama).

    Basically Trump and the Dems got into a game of chicken and the Dems didn't blink. The same happened in reverse under the last administration. Trump has complained that he's going to be blamed, and he's right. In 2013 he laid blame for the shutdown squarely at Obama's feet. The Democrats, of course, didn't see it that way.

    So now we have a Senate bill to reopen the government for three weeks, with a verbal promise by the GOP that DACA would be addressed in the interim. I see this as a positive move... this is the way compromise is supposed to work, for what it's worth. The GOP had a point: DACA is not central to keeping the government running. It was a political move to force the issue, and as skeezy as such tactics may be, that's the way the sausage is made. But despite controlling both houses as well as the presidency, the GOP can't get around DACA. They have to deal with it, and now they know that the political will exists on the other side of the aisle to make it hurt if they don't.

    The catch is that if Trump and the GOP still won't step up, it's not going to be so easy next time.

    Re The Wall being deemed unnecessary... not going to happen. Trump and his supporters absolutely love the idea. It's not about results for him. It's about building something physical that he and his base can point to. Remember we're in an environment where facts don't matter. The mere threat of Trump deporting everyone slashed illegal immigration in the short term, even without doing anything else. Same with the stock market climbing during that first year: it's was perception that something favorable to corporate profits was going to happen. No actual legislation drove that rise before the tax bill. At the end of the day, mark my words, they're going to campaign on The Wall as a big part of why illegal immigration is down. And the Trump base is going to eat it up.

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    Last edited by adouglas; 01-22-18 at 05:15 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Government shut down

    You can't really compare this one to the one that happened under Obama. Under Obama the GOP refused to accept anything short of torpedoing Obamacare, which was something anyone with a single working brain cell knew the Democrats would never agree to. This shutdown was over something that both sides agree needs addressing, but was done to get one side to stop dragging its feet.

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    You can't really compare this one to the one that happened under Obama. Under Obama the GOP refused to accept anything short of torpedoing Obamacare, which was something anyone with a single working brain cell knew the Democrats would never agree to. This shutdown was over something that both sides agree needs addressing, but was done to get one side to stop dragging its feet.
    Fair enough. Still a crappy, destructive tactic that results from extreme partisanship.

    We ought to ban continuing resolutions and lock the lot of 'em in the Capitol until they reach an agreement. Bet we'd have budget consensus in record time.... Didn't the Catholic church do that once, to force the election of a new pope?

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    Re: Government shut down

    People sitting home doing nothing instead of sitting in an office doing nothing

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by adouglas View Post

    Re The Wall being deemed unnecessary... not going to happen. Trump and his supporters absolutely love the idea. It's not about results for him. It's about building something physical that he and his base can point to. Remember we're in an environment where facts don't matter. The mere threat of Trump deporting everyone slashed illegal immigration in the short term, even without doing anything else. Same with the stock market climbing during that first year: it's was perception that something favorable to corporate profits was going to happen. No actual legislation drove that rise before the tax bill. At the end of the day, mark my words, they're going to campaign on The Wall as a big part of why illegal immigration is down. And the Trump base is going to eat it up.
    The wall might be necessary for Trump's pride, but if he simply stated that it was no longer necessary, his supporters would totally back him up. The Trump base have never been about policy, they are about Trump. Like you said, facts don't matter...

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    It's just like working for a salary anywhere else, isn't it? If I have salaried employees and I close my business for a couple of weeks for renovations, I still have to pay them don't I?.
    No, it's more like your company has been run fiscally irresponsible and has run out of money. You have to lay off your work force until you get funding, one way or another. During their layoff, they will be able to collect unemployment eventually, but you do not have to pay them those back wages. Difference here is the workers are getting full pay, staying employed, and their place of business has no money.

    Let's look at it another way. Many smaller start-ups work month to month while trying to get funding. Many workers continue to work with no pay for a couple weeks knowing the funding will be revived and they'll get their back pay, but they work through it. The .gov isn't allowed to do that. We had a shut down for what, 3 days?? And really only one business day. They could have worked through the funding crisis and not even noticed. But now, we've had a large portion of the government do nothing for the past 3 days, will get that pay, and will be getting overtime pay to catch up. Keep borrowing America, it's going to work out well in the end...

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    Re: Government shut down

    New law should be put into the books.

    1. Congress doesn't get paid if there is a shutdown, but is required to work (just like a lot of other federal employees). If there is a backlog in pay, Congress/pres/cabinet are the LAST in line to get paid, after every other employee owed money.

    2. No back pay if you were furloughed. If there is a shutdown and you were not forced to come in, you will not be paid for your time off. Government shutdown doesn't equal paid vacation.


    Sorry cupcakes, time to harden the fuck up.

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    Re: Government shut down

    I just agreed with something political that Clayton posted...

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    New law should be put into the books.

    1. Congress doesn't get paid if there is a shutdown, but is required to work (just like a lot of other federal employees). If there is a backlog in pay, Congress/pres/cabinet are the LAST in line to get paid, after every other employee owed money.

    2. No back pay if you were furloughed. If there is a shutdown and you were not forced to come in, you will not be paid for your time off. Government shutdown doesn't equal paid vacation.


    Sorry cupcakes, time to harden the fuck up.
    There should be an option for bootstrappy type employees to continue working and receive pay normally. It is not the IRS clerk's fault the suits can't get their shit together.
    Everything else is spot on.

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    2. No back pay if you were furloughed. If there is a shutdown and you were not forced to come in, you will not be paid for your time off. Government shutdown doesn't equal paid vacation.
    Or you are required to take "vacation" time if salaried. That's how it works in my biz; if when the company goes on shutdown you must allocate vacation time to cover or you'll go into deficit and be billed accordingly at separation.

    I've been through this once in the past. My buddy's company does it to him every year over the week between xmas and new years.

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    There should be an option for bootstrappy type employees to continue working and receive pay normally. It is not the IRS clerk's fault the suits can't get their shit together.
    It is never (or rarely) and individuals' "fault" when a company goes on furlough. Nobody here is saying otherwise.

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  17. #17
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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    It is never (or rarely) and individuals' "fault" when a company goes on furlough. Nobody here is saying otherwise.
    The IRS doesn't cut paychecks either...

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  18. #18
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Government shut down

    Maybe people would vote more appropriately if they realized they might lose pay from it. Our federal workforce is a sizable percentage of our voting population.

    And HARD NO. You don't work, you don't get compensated. End of the fucking line. No more handouts.

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    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Government shut down

    I'm not talking about NOT working and getting paid.
    whatever, it's really such a minuscule part of what's happening it's not worth even discussing, really.
    really.

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  20. #20
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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    And HARD NO. You don't work, you don't get compensated.
    Unless you burn PTO benefit..

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  21. #21
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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    People sitting home doing nothing instead of sitting in an office doing nothing
    All done now (at least for 17 more days)

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    No, it's more like your company has been run fiscally irresponsible and has run out of money. You have to lay off your work force until you get funding, one way or another. During their layoff, they will be able to collect unemployment eventually,
    In a way, this is the same thing. Except rather than getting unemployment (from the government), the employees will get back pay (from the government).
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    New law should be put into the books.

    1. Congress doesn't get paid if there is a shutdown, but is required to work (just like a lot of other federal employees). If there is a backlog in pay, Congress/pres/cabinet are the LAST in line to get paid, after every other employee owed money.
    I vote for you.

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Or you are required to take "vacation" time if salaried. That's how it works in my biz; if when the company goes on shutdown you must allocate vacation time to cover or you'll go into deficit and be billed accordingly at separation.

    I've been through this once in the past. My buddy's company does it to him every year over the week between xmas and new years.
    My company does that every year too for the most part. Someone's for the 4th of July week too.

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    Re: Government shut down

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    New law should be put into the books.

    1. Congress doesn't get paid if there is a shutdown,

    US Congress should use the New Hampshire model

    $100/yr

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  24. #24
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    Re: Government shut down

    It wouldn't matter. The actual pay has become a very small percentage of congressional income.

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