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Guns...

  1. #126
    Senior Member AVI8_636's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...


    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
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    Deliberate murder is now comparable to an RTA?




    Ok.
    Is it comparable? Sure why wouldn't it be? It's the taking of innocent lives because of either an irresponsible party, or someone with potential mental issues.

    Edit: My point isn't that one is worse than the other. The point is that irresponsible drivers cause similar pain and suffering in society, yet there has never been demands for tighter regulations for driving.

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    Last edited by AVI8_636; 12-15-12 at 08:21 PM.
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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman
    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
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    Did you hear about the time that guy broke into a school and shot a bunch of kids with an airplane?
    You're fuckin' kidding, right? Please say you are...
    It's my asinine reply to comparing gun deaths to airplane deaths.

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  3. #128
    Kosher Assassin Stoneman's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
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    It's my asinine reply to comparing gun deaths to airplane deaths.
    Think for just a minute as to what I may have been using that analogy for...

    Nope, forget it. I told myself I wasn't coming back to this thread. This time I mean it...

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  4. #129
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    Maybe I'm missing the pount of the thread. I don't know.

    The gun debate will rage on. Having experienced life on both sides of the equation, I'm undecided.

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  5. #130
    Lifer oVTo's Avatar
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    Guns...

    China has experienced a similar problem. Since 2010 there have been about a half dozen attacks by crazed knife/ax/hammer wielding madmen. What's the same about it? It's always unstable males committing the atrocities, and in both nations many people claim it's a failure of proper psychological treatment/intervention. What's different? The weapon of choice and the outcome. In China the result f the attacks was 20 dead and 100 injured. In the US, the we had 26 dead in just one attack. Not that I want to be like China, that's not my point. My point is that the claim that the madmen would use a knife and get the same body count as they get with guns doesn't appear to be supported by the evidence. Psycho killers are everywhere, are just have better tools.

    I don't give a shit about gun control laws, as gadget said that horse is out of the barn.

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  6. #131
    Lifer G21forme's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Can someone please explain a plan that will eliminate 100% of privately owned firearms and let me know how the govt plans to protect every single person in this country from a gun related attack and for that matter every single assault rape murder etc and guarantee myself and my family will not be harmed in any way? Until then shut the fuck up I'm keeping my guns.

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  7. #132
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by G21forme View Post
    Argh fuck it, the standard magazine for an ak/ar is 30, G17 17, uzi 30 etc etc. The term high cap mag was invented to fool the sheep into thinking ten rounders are the norm. Besides do you want to see how fast I can change mags in my guns? Mag capacity means dick and you don't even know what a clip is. I'm sorry but if you know nothing about firearms or the laws governing ownership/carry you have no business in this thread or even opening your mouth about it. The ignorance in this thread is absolutely mind boggling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyf View Post
    Joe I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just have zero firearms knowledge, but the crap your spewing out is exactly the problem we have in this country right now.

    I was actually going to take the time to type out a very long response but I have decided it's in my better interest not to, as doing so would be like getting into an argument with a fire hydrant.
    You guys are correct in that my technical knowledge of specific firearms is limited (apologies for using the term "clip" for magazine). In the situation I was talking about, the shooter didn't use a rifle, he used two handguns because he needed to initially conceal them. My understanding is that magazines that look like this:



    were hard to get under the assault weapons ban. I might be wrong about that, someone mentioned it at the funeral of my friend and I just assumed it was true. In any case it was fortunate the shooter wasn't using the long magazines, because he was tackled when he was changing them, and so the size of his magazines literally determined how many people he took out. Magazine size might not matter to you guys, but like most mass shooting perpetrators this guy wasn't an ex-commando that could change them in 0.03 seconds.

    Large magazines were used in several recent mass shootings, which makes me think they're the tool of choice. It's hard for me to see what else they're useful for, maybe you guys can educate me.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Guns...-revolver-pistola-comprar-armas-vendo  

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    Last edited by joeswamp; 12-15-12 at 10:05 PM.
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  8. #133
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    Re: Guns...

    You are a good sport joe and I think you honestly want to learn and that's great. The mag you are referring to is a G18 33 rnd mag, a g17/34 can hold a 17/19/31/33 round mag. Prove to me said mags were used? I have a bunch because love my girl and our kids and will fuck your shit up if you try to hurt them.

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    Last edited by G21forme; 12-15-12 at 10:16 PM.
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  9. #134
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I didn't see this thread until now. I'll repeat what I posted in the other one:

    "Now they’re tryin’ to take my guns away
    And that would be just fine
    If you take ‘em away from the government first
    I’d gladly give you mine"
    FTFY

    PhilB

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  10. #135
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    Re: Guns...

    I'm guessing you two have never heard of disparity of force?

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  11. #136
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittenger5 View Post
    Im definitely not a gun person, but after this one, I'm planning on getting my CCL and picking up a handgun of some sort. I hope to god I never have to touch it outside of a range, but if someone threatens me or my family, I will not hesitate.
    That said, I STILL dont understand why anyone has a valid reason why they need assault rifles or machine guns of any sort. Handguns for personal protection? Sure, rifles for hunting? Not for me, but I understand. But assault rifles and machine guns? Just to make themselves feel badass. Thats all. I wouldnt care if they were outlawed.
    Because the POINT of the 2nd Amendment, and the right it protects, is for the people to have the firepower to determine their own political future if and when that is needed. It isn't about hunting, or even about personal self defense (although that is also a fundamental right). The assault rifle (indeed the actual real select-fire version, not just a semi-auto lookalike) is EXACTLY the sort of gun the 2nd Amendment is saying we should have, given the current technology. In the future, it might be telling us we should have blasters or laserguns ot pulsed-energy rifles, or whatever is the current effective tech at the time.

    PhilB

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  12. #137
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by DucDave View Post
    My understanding is the best choice for MOST people to protect one's family is a shotgun. And having seen what happens in the hands of most people with semi automatic weapon (AK 47? ) at the range, I'd think that was a really poor choice for home protection or hunting for that matter!

    But, I'm fine with someone owning one so long as they're licensed, trained, not a criminal and not mentally ill.

    I've been told that I could buy a gun from someone else and neither of us are obligated to report the transfer. That can't possibly be true though...
    The problem with "licensed, trained" is that the government will be the ones to adminster that, make the rules, decide who gets what and when, and keep track of it all. Which is exactly the entity that should not be alowed to know or do any of that, given the actual point of the right to keep and bear arms.

    Private sales between individuals are legal without any paperwork in most states. Some states have infringed on the rights of their residents by requiring such to go through an FFL and be checked, recorded, undergo waiting periods, etc.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 12-15-12 at 10:42 PM.
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  13. #138
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by G21forme View Post
    You are a good sport joe and I think you honestly want to learn and that's great. The mag you are referring to is a G18 33 rnd mag, a g17/34 can hold a 17/19/31/33 round mag. Prove to me said mags were used? I have a bunch because love my girl and our kids and will fuck your shit up if you try to hurt them.
    It was reported initially that the CT guy used extended magazines (I heard it on the radio), which makes sense because it was reported that he got off 100 rounds. I don't know if this has been confirmed though.

    In the Giffords shooting, Loughner used extended handgun magazines and was wrestled to the ground when he stopped to reload. So those long magazines definitely took out a couple more people.

    In the Aurora shooting, the guy had a rifle with a 100 round drum magazine. Fortunately for the victims, this thing jammed after about 30 rounds.

    My only point: Large magazines = tool of choice for mass shooting. Probably not as useful for self defense, unless you're being attacked by a huge army.

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  14. #139
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Because the POINT of the 2nd Amendment, and the right it protects, is for the people to have the firepower to determine their own political future if and when that is needed. It isn't about hunting, or even about personal self defense (although that is also a fundamental right). The assault rifle (indeed the actual real select-fire version, not just a semi-auto lookalike) is EXACTLY the sort of gun the 2nd Amendment is saying we should have, given the current technology. In the future, it might be telling us we should have blasters or laserguns ot pulsed-energy rifles, or whatever is the current effective tech at the time.

    PhilB
    If what you're saying is true (and I'm not saying it isn't), doesn't that imply that we need to own WMDs?

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  15. #140
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manny View Post
    I don't know anything about guns - the names, numbers, sizes types, nothing. Honestly I wouldn't care if they made it almost impossible to get any type.

    I hate guns. I always have. After this I hate them more.

    I think the most common use for a gun is killing or injuring a person. Is there another use of a gun I am not aware of? IMO Regular everyday suburban mothers shouldn't have a stock of guns in their homes.
    Yes, apparently there is another use of a gun that you're not aware of -- one that happens a hundred times more often than the use you cite. Defending yourself or others.

    Not to mention uses such as hunting, or target shooting, both of which happen thousands of times more often than killing or injuring a person.

    PhilB

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  16. #141
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manny View Post
    I fully and completely disagree.

    Killing someone with a gun is easy, particularly if you can get them from your mothers cabinet. Killing someone with a gun is easy because you can stand back behind a mask and shield yourself form the violence by being semi-removed from it.

    Killing someone with rocks or bare hands or a knife or anything similar requires much much more effort and a totally different level of commitment to the crime because of the physical force and closeness involved. Yes there will always be crazies but there is a pattern here. When was the last time there was a mass murder by someone swinging a rock or a bat or anything else? People choose guns because they are effective and easy. Guns my not be "the problem" but they are most certainly part of it.

    As I said in my first post, IMPULSE plus ACCESS = major problems.

    Removing certain freedoms - either by introducing another way to limit guns or by changing security measures or by some other means to control the problem we have is probably exactly the answer.
    This is what a lack of understanding -- of history, of technology, of politics and governance, of our own Constitution and what it says and why -- gets you.

    PhilB

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  17. #142
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    If what you're saying is true (and I'm not saying it isn't), doesn't that imply that we need to own WMDs?
    Well, no, because WMDs are indiscriminate in their effect, and thus are useless for defense; they are effective ONLY as offensive weapons. WMDs also pose a clear danger simply by their existence and storage, in a way that other arms do not.

    However it DOES imply (more than that, clearly state) everything short of WMDs. The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "to keep and bear muskets", or "to keep and bear hunting arms", or "to keep and bear home-defense arms"; it says "to keep and bear arms". Without restriction. Shall not be infringed. Period.

    PhilB

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  18. #143
    Daily Commuter Drewski's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget View Post
    It would be nice if the Gun Industry would admit some responsibility for keeping guns out of these sick people hands.
    Perhaps publically support better healthcare...

    That will never happen since they see no profit in it.
    The cold truth is that everytime something like this happens, they make money.
    Are you saying that once the gun manufacturers sell their products to Federally licensed dealers, they should, or you would like them to, keep track of these weapons from owner to owner just to make sure that nobody with a mental illness ever comes into possession of said weapon??

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  19. #144
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Well, no, because WMDs are indiscriminate in their effect, and thus are useless for defense; they are effective ONLY as offensive weapons. WMDs also pose a clear danger simply by their existence and storage, in a way that other arms do not.

    However it DOES imply (more than that, clearly state) everything short of WMDs. The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "to keep and bear muskets", or "to keep and bear hunting arms", or "to keep and bear home-defense arms"; it says "to keep and bear arms". Without restriction. Shall not be infringed. Period.

    PhilB
    How are you defining "defensive weapon" and "offensive weapon"? It could be argued that WMDs have been more successful as defensive weapons than offensive. For instance: the fact that we have nuclear capability prevents others from attacking us and so we are defended.

    All weapons pose a clear danger simply by their existence and storage, it's just a matter of degree.

    In any case, I don't see the words "offensive" or "defensive" in the constitution, I just see the word "arms". So I don't see how the constitution makes that distinction.

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    Last edited by joeswamp; 12-15-12 at 11:30 PM.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB
    Quote Originally Posted by Manny View Post
    I fully and completely disagree.

    Killing someone with a gun is easy, particularly if you can get them from your mothers cabinet. Killing someone with a gun is easy because you can stand back behind a mask and shield yourself form the violence by being semi-removed from it.

    Killing someone with rocks or bare hands or a knife or anything similar requires much much more effort and a totally different level of commitment to the crime because of the physical force and closeness involved. Yes there will always be crazies but there is a pattern here. When was the last time there was a mass murder by someone swinging a rock or a bat or anything else? People choose guns because they are effective and easy. Guns my not be "the problem" but they are most certainly part of it.

    As I said in my first post, IMPULSE plus ACCESS = major problems.

    Removing certain freedoms - either by introducing another way to limit guns or by changing security measures or by some other means to control the problem we have is probably exactly the answer.
    This is what a lack of understanding -- of history, of technology, of politics and governance, of our own Constitution and what it says and why -- gets you.

    PhilB
    I'm crying laughing over this statement because I know manny and I know a thing or two about his family.

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  21. #146
    Lifer G21forme's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    I'm calling bullshit Sam, should the auto industry be held responsible for the sale of a car to a habitual drunk driver? Firearms manufactures are at the mercy of federal and state governments as to whom they can sell to. What legal liability does the manufacturer have if the sale is considered legal by the state and federal govt. I got a paper cut from usps who do i sue

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  22. #147
    Senior Member AVI8_636's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post


    Extended mags are a subject where I lean more towards restriction. I'm sure many won't agree with me, but I don't see any reason for someone to have a 33 round mag for their pistol. As I'm sure most of you can tell from my posts, I'm fairly pro gun, but this is where I can personally draw the line. I really can't see any logical reason to have one of these massive mags. If you say you need a 33 round mag on your Glock to defend yourself, you're either in a war zone, or you have some serious shit going on that's going to require much more than what you're probably capable of on your own.

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  23. #148
    Lifer G21forme's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    What glocks can accept a 33 round mag?

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  24. #149
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    Re: Guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by G21forme View Post
    What glocks can accept a 33 round mag?
    DUH! Have you not seen Skyfall? that dudes gun never runs out of ammo!

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  25. #150
    Lifer G21forme's Avatar
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    Re: Guns...

    Btw glock doesn't make a 33 round mag

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