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Give up Your Guns?

  1. #276
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?


    Just because a thread on this topic is bereft and barren without my input, I'll post with an answer to the question in the title.
    "Not a chance in Hell."
    Thank you very much.

    PhilB

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  2. #277
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    early gun laws favored people of means, they targeted the "Saturday night special" getting inexpensive guns off the market

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  3. #278
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Youíve been lecturing ignorant gun owners on how misguided we are, while this points out that you actually have no idea what the gun laws are in Massachusetts in general, Boston in particular. You probably think you can just stroll into a gun show, or drive over the border and buy one in NH.

    Go find out what it will take for you to legally purchase and possess a firearm in your town, then we can continue the discussion. Because most of you are completely ignorant of existing gun laws.
    I think you might be confusing me with someone else, I don't believe I've told anyone that they are misguided in their beliefs.

    Also: the issue here is not legal barriers. I understand that Mass has some some of the strictest gun laws in the nation, although it's news to me that these laws are overtly racist and therefore violating people's civil rights. If this is true, I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention.

    If legal barriers were enough, there'd be no need for locks in this world. If I'm a bad guy who wants a gun, I don't care about legal barriers, I only care about physical barriers. A background check, for example, is a physical barrier; if I'm a mental institution escapee who wants a gun, I can't get one from an FFL. But here's the loophole: I can get one from a private sale in many states. I can also get one through straw purchasing.

    Of course there are legal barriers to transport firearms across state lines, but again no physical barriers. Therefore there really are no physical barriers to prevent bad guys having guns in your state, no matter how strict the laws are there. This is why we have problems with too many bad guys with guns, even in states with strict gun laws.

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  4. #279
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    I think you might be confusing me with someone else, I don't believe I've told anyone that they are misguided in their beliefs.

    Also: the issue here is not legal barriers. I understand that Mass has some some of the strictest gun laws in the nation, although it's news to me that these laws are overtly racist and therefore violating people's civil rights. If this is true, I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention.

    If legal barriers were enough, there'd be no need for locks in this world. If I'm a bad guy who wants a gun, I don't care about legal barriers, I only care about physical barriers. A background check, for example, is a physical barrier; if I'm a mental institution escapee who wants a gun, I can't get one from an FFL. But here's the loophole: I can get one from a private sale in many states. I can also get one through straw purchasing.

    Of course there are legal barriers to transport firearms across state lines, but again no physical barriers. Therefore there really are no physical barriers to prevent bad guys having guns in your state, no matter how strict the laws are there. This is why we have problems with too many bad guys with guns, even in states with strict gun laws.
    You're trolling, right? Seriously? This has to be the best troll ever... I can't imagine anyone being seriously this oblivious to what happens in the world. You must be trolling.

    Many gun laws were implemented on a basis of "racism". In NH the original licensing laws were passed in the 1920's and remained on the books until last year. The law were passed to limit the ability of "jews". "italians", and "labor agitators" who were taking jobs in the millyards from existing residents. Reference: http://www.nhfc-ontarget.org/wp-cont...ss-Inserts.pdf

    Nobody, in any state, reviews all of the laws every year to make sure they aren't racist. Laws that are passed may or may not be racist. They may or may not be religious. No one reviews them. Check the existing "blue laws" in MA if you think laws in MA are above this.

    If you believe that background checks are a "physical barrier" then you really don't have a clue as to how the world works.
    I guess that's completely true, because you say:
    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    if I'm a mental institution escapee who wants a gun, I can't get one from an FFL.
    The TX shooter was a mental institution escapee. He wanted a gun. He purchased one from an FFL.
    He was also a prohibited person.
    He couldn't own guns.
    He couldn't buy guns.
    That which you claim to be a physical barrier failed.

    Assuming it didn't fail, all you need is someone who is willing to violate the "background check" law to sell a firearm to a criminal and criminals will have firearms. This happens every day in most cities. Every day.

    It's also ridiculously simple to actually manufacture a firearm in today's society, so the "sell" of firearms is becoming a point that doesn't really matter to regulation at all. You can literally 3d print an AR lower (which assumes you don't have a drill).

    State lines... Wholly fuck... Really? The TSA fails over 80% of the time to keep weapons off of airplanes. Let's use state border guards. That'll fix it.

    At one point you implied that buying a firearm should be something as hard as robbing a bank, because robbing a bank provides a "physical barrier". The "physical barrier" you described was "glass" and a man with a gun (armed guard). By the same argument if because robbing is illegal, shouldn't we put all people behind glass and armed guards, because murder is illegal? In the case of robbery we're securing the money, not the tools. The tools used to rob a bank (if left in the open hands, bags, etc. if behind a wall, hammers, pry bars, etc.) are freely available. Guns should also be freely avialbe and we should secure people if we are making that comparison, no?

    I'm pretty confident this is an epic troll.

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  5. #280
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Just one last bit...

    If we want people not to use drugs, we should not only make it illegal for people to use drugs, but if we make it illegal for people to sell drugs, without a background check, that'll fix it.

    Otherwise, drugs will be behind a glass case with armed guards.

    That'll end the drug problem once and for all.

    Physical barriers.

    Build the wall!
    Build the wall!

    sillyness.

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  6. #281
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    Many gun laws were implemented on a basis of "racism". In NH the original licensing laws were passed in the 1920's and remained on the books until last year. The law were passed to limit the ability of "jews". "italians", and "labor agitators" who were taking jobs in the millyards from existing residents. Reference: http://www.nhfc-ontarget.org/wp-cont...ss-Inserts.pdf

    Nobody, in any state, reviews all of the laws every year to make sure they aren't racist. Laws that are passed may or may not be racist. They may or may not be religious. No one reviews them. Check the existing "blue laws" in MA if you think laws in MA are above this.
    We went through this before. Lots of laws regulating lots of things have racist origins. But the test for whether a law is racist is whether or not it currently discriminates against people based on race. If anyone is affected by racist laws, we now have direct mechanisms for getting rid of them. This is why people of color no longer stand in the back of the bus or have separate drinking fountains. If the current Boston gun laws are overtly racist, I'm surprised I haven't heard about it because you'd think people would make a big stink and would be suing to get them changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    If you believe that background checks are a "physical barrier" then you really don't have a clue as to how the world works.

    The TX shooter was a mental institution escapee. He wanted a gun. He purchased one from an FFL.
    He was also a prohibited person.
    He couldn't own guns.
    He couldn't buy guns.
    That which you claim to be a physical barrier failed.
    Yes it failed, and I'm glad you brought this up. The database also failed in the case of the Virginia Tech shooter, so that's two big failures. However according to this article, the FBI had conducted over 222 million background checks as of 2015 and had denied over 1.25 million guns to criminals and people with mental illness.

    So the system isn't perfect, but it's probably better than nothing. No system is perfect; we spend tons of money regulating aircraft and we still have airplane crashes. However airplanes are by far the safest way to travel long distances, so that regulation is probably not worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    Assuming it didn't fail, all you need is someone who is willing to violate the "background check" law to sell a firearm to a criminal and criminals will have firearms. This happens every day in most cities. Every day.
    This is news to me. So are FFL dealers nationwide routinely risking their businesses and not performing background checks? Would like to hear more on this. To me the bigger deal is that a bad guy can usually bypass a background check by purchasing from a private seller, depending on what state he lives in -- the Texas guy could easily have done this. This is a big problem. Physical barriers are less effective when you can just walk around them.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    It's also ridiculously simple to actually manufacture a firearm in today's society, so the "sell" of firearms is becoming a point that doesn't really matter to regulation at all. You can literally 3d print an AR lower (which assumes you don't have a drill).
    This is true and makes me wonder if it's going to cause a spike in gun crime in European countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    State lines... Wholly fuck... Really? The TSA fails over 80% of the time to keep weapons off of airplanes. Let's use state border guards. That'll fix it.
    My point here is that possession laws aren't going to be effective if a neighboring area doesn't enforce them and you have no border. The reason Germany can have high gun ownership rates but few bad guys with guns is that the laws are uniform within their borders, and it's hard to get stuff across the border. If NH banned possession of opioids and Mass sold them in the candy aisle, you can bet that NH would have a problem of opioid possession (bigger than they have now). If gun laws were uniform across states we would have fewer problems with gun trafficking. The only other solution would be to enforce borders, as absurd as that might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    At one point you implied that buying a firearm should be something as hard as robbing a bank, because robbing a bank provides a "physical barrier".
    Whoa, never did I state or imply that. I said that it should be difficult for a bad guy to obtain a firearm. For a good guy, it should be as easy as possible. This country doesn't have a problem with good guys with guns, it has a problem with bad guys with guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    The "physical barrier" you described was "glass" and a man with a gun (armed guard). By the same argument if because robbing is illegal, shouldn't we put all people behind glass and armed guards, because murder is illegal?
    We sometimes do that, have you seen the president's limo?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    In the case of robbery we're securing the money, not the tools. The tools used to rob a bank (if left in the open hands, bags, etc. if behind a wall, hammers, pry bars, etc.) are freely available. Guns should also be freely avialbe and we should secure people if we are making that comparison, no?
    Well I suppose that's one way to provide a physical barrier against murder, but it might not be the easiest way.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    Just one last bit...

    If we want people not to use drugs, we should not only make it illegal for people to use drugs, but if we make it illegal for people to sell drugs, without a background check, that'll fix it.

    Otherwise, drugs will be behind a glass case with armed guards.

    That'll end the drug problem once and for all.
    Not 100% sure what you're getting at here, but we do have some physical barriers against illegal drug use. The fact that you need a prescription is one barrier, and there are others. My local drugstore asks for ID if you buy certain types of cold medicine, because I guess you can use them to make meth.

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    Last edited by joeswamp; 11-12-17 at 01:46 PM.
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  7. #282
    Lifer FirstDuc-1098's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    "It can't happen here". Want to bet?

    Hand over your weapons - The Boston Globe

    talk about a slippery slope

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  8. #283
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    I stole this from elsewhere. I'll leave it here for the spirit of discussion.

    4 Laws That Could Stem the Rising Threat of Mass Shootings - Scientific American

    —Require permits to purchase
    Well, I'd rephrase that as "require NICS background checks", it's an important quibble. That said, the NICS computer check needs to be done as a public service, not as a $25 and up charge on both ends as it is now. That's long been the holdup, a lot of people like to "horsetrade" guns banking on a rare find, and they can't afford to do that with current fees. They are nothing to an individual, and everything to a collector without endless funds. Those guns acquired will likely never be fired again, which most would think of as a good think as they're being taken "off the market".

    —Ban individuals convicted of any violent crime from gun purchase
    Absolutely. If you raise a hand against your fellow man except in defense, you go to jail and forfeit rights, and this is one of those rights.

    —Make all serious domestic violence offenders surrender firearms
    This is a law in many states, but it needs to be the law in all of them. See Item #2

    —Temporarily ban active alcohol abusers from firearms
    I'd add substance abuse, but only after a trial, per the Constitution. As I've pointed out before, it isn't hard to get a quicky court order if you are a danger to others, but it's too easy for an uber-religious doctor with an agenda to declare you an alcoholic.

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  9. #284
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I stole this from elsewhere. I'll leave it here for the spirit of discussion.

    4 Laws That Could Stem the Rising Threat of Mass Shootings - Scientific American

    —Require permits to purchase
    Well, I'd rephrase that as "require NICS background checks", it's an important quibble. That said, the NICS computer check needs to be done as a public service, not as a $25 and up charge on both ends as it is now. That's long been the holdup, a lot of people like to "horsetrade" guns banking on a rare find, and they can't afford to do that with current fees. They are nothing to an individual, and everything to a collector without endless funds. Those guns acquired will likely never be fired again, which most would think of as a good think as they're being taken "off the market".

    —Ban individuals convicted of any violent crime from gun purchase
    Absolutely. If you raise a hand against your fellow man except in defense, you go to jail and forfeit rights, and this is one of those rights.

    —Make all serious domestic violence offenders surrender firearms
    This is a law in many states, but it needs to be the law in all of them. See Item #2

    —Temporarily ban active alcohol abusers from firearms
    I'd add substance abuse, but only after a trial, per the Constitution. As I've pointed out before, it isn't hard to get a quicky court order if you are a danger to others, but it's too easy for an uber-religious doctor with an agenda to declare you an alcoholic.
    Ummmmm, that article is counting on an uneducated public.....

    Identify Prohibited Persons | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

    Identify Prohibited Persons

    The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. ß 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms or ammunition, to include any person:

    convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
    who is a fugitive from justice;

    who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act, codified at 21 U.S.C. ß 802);

    who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
    who is an illegal alien;

    who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

    who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
    who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or

    who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
    The GCA at 18 U.S.C. ß 992(n) also makes it unlawful for any person under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to ship, transport, or receive firearms or ammunition.

    Further, the GCA at 18 U.S.C. ß 922(d) makes it unlawful to sell or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition to any person who is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition.

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  10. #285
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    That said, the NICS computer check needs to be done as a public service, not as a $25 and up charge on both ends as it is now.
    that must be a Massachusetts thing

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  11. #286
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Another school shooting today.
    Too soon for discussion? Too late?

    Thank jeebus his rights weren’t infringed.

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    Last edited by Chippertheripper; 11-14-17 at 02:34 PM.
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  12. #287
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    If we just keep having shootings, then we'll never have to deal with this issue because it'll always be "too soon".

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  13. #288
    Used to know a thing or 2 eboos's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Another school shooting today.
    Too soon for discussion? Too late?

    Thank jeebus his rights werenít infringed.
    Honestly, what is there to discuss? We already have laws that are supposed to prevent certain disqualified people from possessing firearms. There are some people that have a legitimate concern over the due process rights of people who could be subject to seizure based on an accusation, or an opinion of a "mental health professional". This is an area that may need discussion.

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  14. #289
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Teen suicide rates have been on a recent increase after decades of decreased incidents.

    Recent studies think that social media is leading to the increased rates of suicide.

    We should take away and ban social media.


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  15. #290
    Used to know a thing or 2 eboos's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvDog View Post
    Teen suicide rates have been on a recent increase after decades of decreased incidents.

    Recent studies think that social media is leading to the increased rates of suicide.

    We should take away and ban social media.


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    Not to mention there is an entire segment of the population that seems obsessed with finding new ways in which they are victims. That can't be good for your self esteem.

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  16. #291
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by eboos View Post
    Honestly, what is there to discuss? We already have laws that are supposed to prevent certain disqualified people from possessing firearms. There are some people that have a legitimate concern over the due process rights of people who could be subject to seizure based on an accusation, or an opinion of a "mental health professional". This is an area that may need discussion.
    +1...criminals gonna criminal...laws don't really matter to them last time i checked...so who do the laws hurt?...the people that follow them

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    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by eboos View Post
    Honestly, what is there to discuss? We already have laws that are supposed to prevent certain disqualified people from possessing firearms. There are some people that have a legitimate concern over the due process rights of people who could be subject to seizure based on an accusation, or an opinion of a "mental health professional". This is an area that may need discussion.
    Guess the only thing left to discuss is "Can't fix it, so we'll just be the only modern country that has such a high rate of gun violence, ho hum."


    Once again, the "can't fix easily, don't try" argument. Bunch of bullshit.

    People getting killed from drugs? Well, already illegal. Don't try anything more.

    Kids joining gangs and getting killed? Gangs and killings are illegal. Oh well. Guess kids just gunna die.

    Cars taking out motorcycles while driving distracted? Vehicular homicide is already illegal. Oh well. Not much else to say. Sorry about your riding buddy.

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    Last edited by TheIglu; 11-14-17 at 03:38 PM.
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  18. #293
    Used to know a thing or 2 eboos's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Or, we can simply suspend all rights whenever they are inconvenient to whoever hollers loudest. Is that the fix we should employ?

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  19. #294
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by eboos View Post
    Or, we can simply suspend all rights whenever they are inconvenient to whoever hollers loudest. Is that the fix we should employ?
    How loud are those dead kids hollering?

    I wouldn't expect you to use the "jump off the cliff, it's all or nothing, you are either with us or against us, if you ain't first you're last, etc etc" binary fallacy.

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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Just curious...do any of you actually think you're going to change each other's minds about any of this stuff?

    Seems to me both sides are pretty firmly entrenched in your own beliefs, and nobody has moved an inch since this thread has started...and yet <insert snarky remark here> continues.

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    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    Just curious...do any of you actually think you're going to change each other's minds about any of this stuff?

    Seems to me both sides are pretty firmly entrenched in your own beliefs, and nobody has moved an inch since this thread has started...and yet <insert snarky remark here> continues.
    No, but I know Erik well enough to know that his argument here is lazy. He's way smarter than that

    C'mon Erik, put on your litigation hat on and give us something harder to "shoot" down. Lol.

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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Just curious...do any of you actually think you're going to change each other's minds about any of this stuff?
    Not until it effects you directly. your kids , your school ,your church or your movie theater. no easy answers and no ones listening.

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  23. #298
    IWOK - Vice President LuvDog's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Iím all in favor of reducing crime and murder.

    Iím not in favor with the liberal media and the far left looking to ban things and take away a fundamental right

    To me, thatís the only solution Iím hearing from the left. More gun laws. Ban guns. Confiscated guns.

    At least I️ hear from the gun folks that mental health needs to be addressed. I️ also hear the stricter enforcement and penalties are needed for violent criminals and repeat offenders.

    However the left wants to let criminals go and do away with capital punishment. Thereís no accountability and penalty for committing crimes. So crime continues and there are no consequences.

    Where are the positive suggestions from the left? Stop talking about banning guns and start taking about fixing the real problem



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  24. #299
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Without knowing all the details on this one yet, something that stands out to me so far is that happened in a highly gun controlled state.

    I've yet to see anything on the current books or on the wish list that would stop any of these events yet the shills always clamor for just one more law.

    I wish they'd just come out and say it, "gun safety", "gun violence" or whatever the current phrasing is to scare the sheeple is nothing more than a cover. The majority of the people pushing gun control hate guns and will stop at nothing until no one has them.

    Everything else is a farce to scare the uneducated.

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  25. #300
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvDog View Post
    I’m all in favor of reducing crime and murder.

    I’m not in favor with the liberal media and the far left looking to ban things and take away a fundamental right

    To me, that’s the only solution I’m hearing from the left. More gun laws. Ban guns. Confiscated guns.

    At least I️ hear from the gun folks that mental health needs to be addressed. I️ also hear the stricter enforcement and penalties are needed for violent criminals and repeat offenders.

    However the left wants to let criminals go and do away with capital punishment. There’s no accountability and penalty for committing crimes. So crime continues and there are no consequences.

    Where are the positive suggestions from the left? Stop talking about banning guns and start taking about fixing the real problem



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    The real problem is arguments like that. No wonder we can't make any progress with wildly inaccurate soundbyte talking points being floated around as fact.

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