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Give up Your Guns?

  1. #301
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?


    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Without knowing all the details on this one yet, something that stands out to me so far is that happened in a highly gun controlled state.

    I've yet to see anything on the current books or on the wish list that would stop any of these events yet the shills always clamor for just one more law.

    I wish they'd just come out and say it, "gun safety", "gun violence" or whatever the current phrasing is to scare the sheeple is nothing more than a cover. The majority of the people pushing gun control hate guns and will stop at nothing until no one has them.

    Everything else is a farce to scare the uneducated.
    I don't hate guns. I own a lot of them. I want to keep them.


    I also don't want to worry my kid will get lit up at daycare or kindergarten.

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  2. #302
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    I do not normally give in to such all or nothing arguments, but I brought up the one area that does warrant some serious thought. I did a lot of writing about shooters from John Hinkley Jr. on up to Jared Loughner and how their mental condition should have disqualified them from firearms possession under the GCA of 1968, and how the NICS was supposed to prevent people who were disqualified from firearms possession. The NICS is largely ineffective, and we see the results, but one of the reasons is the lack of a set structure among the mental health community to classify and report what is considered a dangerous mental health condition. Also, the possibility of being reported stigmatizes and discourages people from getting treatment of undiagnosed mental health conditions. Compounded with the questionable due process a reported person may receive when that person is subject to firearms seizure, this issue is not simply solved by hastily passing legislation. I am all for ensuring that disqualified persons are prevented from obtaining or possessing firearms, but I cannot trample other rights, which may seem inconvenient, to ensure this.

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    Last edited by eboos; 11-14-17 at 04:03 PM.

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  3. #303
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    I don't hate guns. I own a lot of them. I want to keep them.


    I also don't want to worry my kid will get lit up at daycare or kindergarten.
    I said the majority.

    And you're good enough with numbers to know that your kid is more likely to die in a fire, or drown, or be poisoned than to be taken out at school.

    If you take off the emotional blinders that is.....

    I don't see you shilling (or is trolling) about fire safety etc.....

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    Last edited by e30addict; 11-14-17 at 04:05 PM.
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  4. #304
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Are you prevented from owning a firearm for committing a felony?

    Are you prevented from owning a firearm if you are not of able bodied mind, such as a mentally handicapped person or a person with documented schizophrenia?

    Are you prevented from voting for either of the above?


    Is there the same amount of outcry for these people and their trampled upon rights?

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  5. #305
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I said the majority.

    And you're good enough with numbers to know that your kid is more likely to die in a fire, or drown, or be poisoned than to be taken out at school.

    If you take off the emotional blinders that is.....

    I don't see you shilling (or is trolling) about fire safety etc.....

    Just be aware, you are comparing accidental death vs intentional homicide.

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  6. #306
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Just be aware, you are comparing accidental death vs intentional homicide.
    If your kid is dead does that distiction matter?

    The first three are much more likely to happen but by all means, let fret over the sensational one that grabs the headlines.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 11-14-17 at 04:15 PM.
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  7. #307
    Lifer LuvDog's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    The real problem is arguments like that. No wonder we can't make any progress with wildly inaccurate soundbyte talking points being floated around as fact.
    What about my statement is wildly in accurate?

    And I️ also donít want to see your kid or my kid gunned down at school or daycare

    But again I️ donít want them run over by a truck either.

    What are your suggestions minus more laws, bans or confiscation?

    What would actually help reduce crime? What impacts criminals without having a negative impact on law abiding citizens?



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  8. #308
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by eboos View Post
    I do not normally give in to such all or nothing arguments, but I brought up the one area that does warrant some serious thought. I did a lot of writing about shooters from John Hinkley Jr. on up to Jared Loughner and how their mental condition should have disqualified them from firearms possession under the GCA of 1968, and how the NICS was supposed to prevent people who were disqualified from firearms possession. The NICS is largely ineffective, and we see the results, but one of the reasons is the lack of a set structure among the mental health community to classify and report what is considered a dangerous mental health condition. Also, the possibility of being reported stigmatizes and discourages people from getting treatment of undiagnosed mental health conditions. Compounded with the questionable due process a reported person may receive when that person is subject to firearms seizure, this issue is not simply solved by hastily passing legislation. I am all for ensuring that disqualified persons are prevented from obtaining or possessing firearms, but I cannot trample other rights, which may seem inconvenient, to ensure this.
    So, does the military have a method for measuring mental health upon enlistment, or during duty, that prevents a person from carrying a firearm, or even prevents that person from enlisting in the first place?

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  9. #309
    Lifer eboos's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Are you prevented from owning a firearm for committing a felony?

    Are you prevented from owning a firearm if you are not of able bodied mind, such as a mentally handicapped person or a person with documented schizophrenia?

    Are you prevented from voting for either of the above?


    Is there the same amount of outcry for these people and their trampled upon rights?
    For your first and third examples, due process had been served. As for the second, if the person is under legal guardianship, there is a due process component to that too.

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  10. #310
    Lifer eboos's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    So, does the military have a method for measuring mental health upon enlistment, or during duty, that prevents a person from carrying a firearm, or even prevents that person from enlisting in the first place?
    Waivers, apparently.

    Seriously though, there is no mandatory evaluation upon enlistment or afterwards that I know of. So to further make my point: mental health diagnosis and treatment largely depends on a patient voluntarily seeking treatment.

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  11. #311
    is not wearing pants Point37's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvDog View Post
    I’m all in favor of reducing crime and murder.

    I’m not in favor with the liberal media and the far left looking to ban things and take away a fundamental right

    To me, that’s the only solution I’m hearing from the left. More gun laws. Ban guns. Confiscated guns.

    At least I️ hear from the gun folks that mental health needs to be addressed. I️ also hear the stricter enforcement and penalties are needed for violent criminals and repeat offenders.

    However the left wants to let criminals go and do away with capital punishment. There’s no accountability and penalty for committing crimes. So crime continues and there are no consequences.

    Where are the positive suggestions from the left? Stop talking about banning guns and start taking about fixing the real problem

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    the mental health thing could be scary like a no fly list where you could just end up being a prohibited person on a list by accident or because you take some type of medication...i don't really think the left wants to let them go and get rid of capital punishment but i agree that the consequences need to be rougher...consequences for dead criminals don't really matter though...i'd like to see national reciprocity and elimination of soft targets/gun free zones meaning either armed security or allowing civilians to carry

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  12. #312
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    If your kid is dead does that distiction matter?

    The first three are much more likely to happen but by all means, let fret over the sensational one that grabs the headlines.
    Indeed, it does matter.
    Intent. It matters.

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  13. #313
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by eboos View Post
    I do not normally give in to such all or nothing arguments, but I brought up the one area that does warrant some serious thought. I did a lot of writing about shooters from John Hinkley Jr. on up to Jared Loughner and how their mental condition should have disqualified them from firearms possession under the GCA of 1968, and how the NICS was supposed to prevent people who were disqualified from firearms possession. The NICS is largely ineffective, and we see the results, but one of the reasons is the lack of a set structure among the mental health community to classify and report what is considered a dangerous mental health condition. Also, the possibility of being reported stigmatizes and discourages people from getting treatment of undiagnosed mental health conditions. Compounded with the questionable due process a reported person may receive when that person is subject to firearms seizure, this issue is not simply solved by hastily passing legislation. I am all for ensuring that disqualified persons are prevented from obtaining or possessing firearms, but I cannot trample other rights, which may seem inconvenient, to ensure this.
    I thought that to be on the "do not sell" list you had to be declared mentally unfit by a judge -- isn't this in the 1968 law? This is why Jared Loughner wasn't on the list. He had been kicked out of school for being crazy, but had never been declared so by a judge.

    The Virginia Tech shooter was declared mentally unfit in a courtroom, but he hadn't been reported because Virginia is really slow to report. I think states now get incentives when they report people in a timely fashion.

    Hinckley of course was long before the NICS, he just checked the box declaring that he wasn't insane. Since he was insane, he may not have realized he was breaking the law...

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  14. #314
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Indeed, it does matter.
    Intent. It matters.
    So you would be less devasted if your kid died in a car accident vs some idiot pulling a trigger? Does not compute.

    It might help you come to terms with it quicker since it was an accident, but in the end your kid is still dead.

    I would think the focus would be on how can we most likely keep kids alive vs whether or not the death was intentional.

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  15. #315
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    So you would be less devasted if your kid died in a car accident vs some idiot pulling a trigger? Does not compute.

    It might help you come to terms with it quicker since it was an accident, but in the end your kid is still dead.

    I would think the focus would be on how can we most likely keep kids alive vs whether or not the death was intentional.
    It would, simply in the sense that I have control over how I drive and it’s my responsibility to ensure she’s securely fastened and not mucking around.

    Do tell us, with regards to the second amendment, how do we keep more kids alive? Lemme guess: the same old moar gunz schtick you usually reply with.

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  16. #316
    Lifer eboos's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    I thought that to be on the "do not sell" list you had to be declared mentally unfit by a judge -- isn't this in the 1968 law? This is why Jared Loughner wasn't on the list. He had been kicked out of school for being crazy, but had never been declared so by a judge.

    The Virginia Tech shooter was declared mentally unfit in a courtroom, but he hadn't been reported because Virginia is really slow to report. I think states now get incentives when they report people in a timely fashion.

    Hinckley of course was long before the NICS, he just checked the box declaring that he wasn't insane. Since he was insane, he may not have realized he was breaking the law...
    You are correct. In response to the Virginia Tech shooter the NICS was supposed to be improved, but failures to report both mental disqualification and criminal convictions still occur.

    My main point is what is currently being discussed and passed in several states. That is the confiscation based on a reporting prior to a hearing. To be perfectly clear, I am not 100% against this, but I recognize how this could be greatly abused. Once your property is seized, it is much harder, and expensive, to get it back.

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  17. #317
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    It would, simply in the sense that I have control over how I drive and it’s my responsibility to ensure she’s securely fastened and not mucking around.

    Do tell us, with regards to the second amendment, how do we keep more kids alive? Lemme guess: the same old moar gunz schtick you usually reply with.
    Mmmm, those gun free zones work out so well.....

    Moar guns is at least better than "because children" in any case. I'd rather have an argument that is based on something other than emotion.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 11-14-17 at 04:52 PM.
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  18. #318
    Grizzly Fuckin Adams dhuze's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Another school shooting today.
    Too soon for discussion? Too late?

    Thank jeebus his rights weren’t infringed.
    You're right, We should make laws saying shooting people is illegal, we also should say you can't bring them on school property. That ought to stop that. Oh and make stealing vehicles illegal too, because that guy stole the vehicle he drove to the school with. Oh wait.........

    Also calling it a school shooting is lame. He started somewhere else and ended up at a school.


    And lets add one more to the car discussion. Lately assholes are driving through crowds with vehicles, should we blame the vehicles and ban them? There isn't even a Constitution protecting them.
    Banning inanimate objects will not stop assholes from being assholes.

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    Last edited by dhuze; 11-14-17 at 04:55 PM.
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  19. #319
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhuze View Post
    .

    Also calling it a school shooting is lame. He started somewhere else and ended up at a school.
    The Brady bunch won't make that distinction. How else can they drum up fear in the sheeple?

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  20. #320
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    This is what we’re reduced to, labeling the incident and arguing about the lameness of it. As a society, we should be ashamed.

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  21. #321
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    that must be a Massachusetts thing
    It is rather common for Liberals to propose laws that already exist in Mass, federally, or both.

    They are often completely ignorant, but in fairness Mass gun laws are extremely complex, and can be interpreted differently by different jurisdictions.

    Challenged Joeswamp and xxaarraa to try and get a LCF because they have no idea how difficult the process is for law-abiding citizens. Then they went radio silent.....

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    Last edited by Garandman; 11-14-17 at 06:36 PM.
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  22. #322
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    It would, simply in the sense that I have control over how I drive and it’s my responsibility to ensure she’s securely fastened and not mucking around.
    And it's my responsibility / control over the firearms I may or may not possess. Cars kill more people than guns, driving is not a constitutionally guaranteed right, let's get rid of cars first.

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  23. #323
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    And it's my responsibility / control over the firearms I may or may not possess. Cars kill more people than guns, driving is not a constitutionally guaranteed right, let's get rid of cars first.
    Well, at least ban the fully automatic assault trucks anyone can drive without a background check. Those are the extra killy ones.

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  24. #324
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    So, does the military have a method for measuring mental health upon enlistment, or during duty, that prevents a person from carrying a firearm, or even prevents that person from enlisting in the first place?
    There are all sorts of conditions that would disqualify a volunteer. In general, if they have ever been treated (drugged) or hospitalized for a mental condition they cannot serve. The evaluation has become more formal.

    House Passes New Recruit Mental Health Screening | Military.com

    The initial entry training is designed to put the candidate under stress and may disorient them. There are trainees who are chaptered out because they cannot adapt, and others who quit. It might be 2-4 weeks before they even touch an unloaded rifle, and a week or two more before they fire it under carefully controlled range conditions.

    There are all kinds of people who cannot handle military life. Those folks generally receive an Administrative Discharge: they are not considered veterans. There are other reasons for AD, like undiagnosed physical ailments, failure to qualify in basic rifle marksmanship, or family hardship.

    Bowe Bergdahl received an AD from the Coast Guard for “psychological problems.” This would normally disqualify him from any service, but he was granted a waiver to enter the Army.

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    Last edited by Garandman; 11-14-17 at 06:35 PM.
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  25. #325
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    And it's my responsibility / control over the firearms I may or may not possess. Cars kill more people than guns, driving is not a constitutionally guaranteed right, let's get rid of cars first.
    this is a false equivalence and both you and 30 know that.
    and I have never advocated for getting rid of all the guns. again, you're reading what you want to read.

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