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Give up Your Guns?

  1. #76
    Have you seen my baseball GingahNinjah's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?


    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Got it, thanks. That's what I thought, but wanted to make sure.

    What I find puzzling is how anachronistic the 2nd amendment is, in the modern world where Governments have things called nuclear bombs, drones, chemical weapons, satellite weapons, aircraft carriers..... Individual citizens having guns doesn't guarantee even a modicum of security against an oppressive government because the balance of power has shifted so far out of bounds. Said another way, in the 1700s, guns and perhaps canons were the most destructive weapon around. Individual weapons weren't that different from government's weapons, except perhaps in just sheer numbers. A bunch of farmers could band together and fight the oppressor successfully.

    It is not the case in the 21st century, and so I find it amusing that people still want to hold on to their guns thinking it gives them some defense against the government.
    yea you may be right that the balance has certainly shifted but ya know what Id much rather have the ability than nothing should the need ever arise. And why should I have to rely on the govt if i ever need protection? i.e. police, sheriffs etc. I have guns for the same reason I and anyone else has a fire extinguisher... just in case. Just like putting out a kitchen fire with an extinguisher could save from loosing the whole house, having a gun to stop a robbery or shooting etc could save from loosing the whole 'house'

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  2. #77
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by GingahNinjah View Post
    yea you may be right that the balance has certainly shifted but ya know what Id much rather have the ability than nothing should the need ever arise. And why should I have to rely on the govt if i ever need protection? i.e. police, sheriffs etc. I have guns for the same reason I and anyone else has a fire extinguisher... just in case. Just like putting out a kitchen fire with an extinguisher could save from loosing the whole house, having a gun to stop a robbery or shooting etc could save from loosing the whole 'house'
    But everyone having fire extinguishers doesn't increase the likelihood of death by fires.

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  3. #78
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by backinthesaddle View Post
    How many shots missed by the person who hit the killer? I didn't read any exact number be it 0 or 100. Do we know there was any risk to innocents from any rounds that might have missed the killer? Based on his stopping the threat and no evidence of him being a danger to others I only wish he got there sooner.
    Listening to the interview it sounds as if Mr. Willeford (citizen) fired 3, possibly 4 shots total, but the story is a little unclear in that respect.

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  4. #79
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Simply put, I want the same weapons available to me as the law enforcement authorities have available to them. THAT is what *I* consider being able to defend yourself against a tyranny. It starts there...

    I have many rifles that are used for target shooting and hunting. I have trained my children in the proper use of firearms - they're aged 11, 17 & 25. Our 11 & 17-year olds have their own target rifles and we recently got them their own .243 for hunting...

    The four or five handguns we have are primarily for protection/self-defense. We will be adding an AR-based rifle to our household soon, and we ALL will become proficient in the handling of that weapon as well...

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  5. #80
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by GingahNinjah View Post
    This Asshat on sunday was a felon whose info was not reported to NICS by the AIR FORCE!!! This is how he was able to still purchase a gun when his background check was done. Had the correct information been reported he would have been denied the ability to purchase a firearm and the gun store probably wouldve reported it to local authorities.
    This is true if he bought the gun at a dealer, but would it have mattered if he bought it from a private seller at a Texas gun show?

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  6. #81
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    This is true if he bought the gun at a dealer, but would it have mattered if he bought it from a private seller at a Texas gun show?
    It would still have been illegal for him to buy the gun.

    He purchased it illegally.
    He possessed it illegally.
    He was, by law, a prohibited person.
    He was, by law, not allowed to posses or purchase firearms.

    Something being illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, it only provides a punishment after it happens.

    The words "gun show" are completely unnecessary. Private seller vs. FFL is the only thing that matters.
    Private sellers don't have access to NICS, which is why they don't run NICS checks.
    In this case, it still doesn't matter, as NICS was wrong.

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    Last edited by jasnmar; 11-07-17 at 12:21 PM.

  7. #82
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    This was my first shot in about 30 years last weekend. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29...ew?usp=sharing

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  8. #83
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    This is true if he bought the gun at a dealer, but would it have mattered if he bought it from a private seller at a Texas gun show?
    It wouldn't have mattered one bit. We have super lax gun laws here in Maine, I could sell you my AR, mags and all the ammo you want in the local Right Aid parking lot with not so much as even exchanging names. Zero checks, zero paperwork. Horrifying, right?

    Somehow though, in spite of all of gun-hating Massachusetts' silly gun laws, MA still has a higher per-capita gun homicide rate than ME. I didn't bother to look, but I'd be willing to bet MA has significantly more shootings in general that don't result in death than ME does.

    What does it mean? It means all these bullshit gun laws are about as effective as the TSA groping old ladies to keep you safe in flight.

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  9. #84
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    It wouldn't have mattered one bit. We have super lax gun laws here in Maine, I could sell you my AR, mags and all the ammo you want in the local Right Aid parking lot with not so much as even exchanging names. Zero checks, zero paperwork. Horrifying, right?

    Somehow though, in spite of all of gun-hating Massachusetts' silly gun laws, MA still has a higher per-capita gun homicide rate than ME. I didn't bother to look, but I'd be willing to bet MA has significantly more shootings in general that don't result in death than ME does.

    What does it mean? It means all these bullshit gun laws are about as effective as the TSA groping old ladies to keep you safe in flight.
    Yup, like the "well known person" to the police who chased and shot another gang member by Symphony Hall yesterday.

    MA gun laws are feelgood bullshit that the criminals aren't even aware of. Shockingly they have no problem getting what they want anyway.

    Sickeningly, they always get a slap on the wrist for violating them while joe blow ccitizen would be beyond screwed for a transgression that was trivial in comparison.

    Fucked up.

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  10. #85
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    It would still have been illegal for him to buy the gun.

    He purchased it illegally.
    He possessed it illegally.
    He was, by law, a prohibited person.
    He was, by law, not allowed to posses or purchase firearms.

    Something being illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, it only provides a punishment after it happens.

    The words "gun show" are completely unnecessary. Private seller vs. FFL is the only thing that matters.
    Private sellers don't have access to NICS, which is why they don't run NICS checks.
    In this case, it still doesn't matter, as NICS was wrong.
    The issue isn't whether it's illegal or not, the question is whether there was a mechanism in place to prevent him from getting a gun easily.

    The NICS, if properly maintained, would have prevented him from getting a gun at a dealer. However if he failed at that he could have bought one at a gun show just as easily.

    Essentially we are relying on "the honor system" to prevent bad guys from getting guns.

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  11. #86
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    The issue isn't whether it's illegal or not, the question is whether there was a mechanism in place to prevent him from getting a gun easily.

    The NICS, if properly maintained, would have prevented him from getting a gun at a dealer. However if he failed at that he could have bought one at a gun show just as easily.

    Essentially we are relying on "the honor system" to prevent bad guys from getting guns.
    So what are we going to do besides make it illegal (i.e. the honor system)?

    Again, gun show is false.
    The only difference is FFL vs. Private Sale.
    Location of sale is irrelevant.

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  12. #87
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post

    Essentially we are relying on "the honor system" to prevent bad guys from getting guns.
    Correct, we rely on the same honor system to prevent bad guys from renting trucks to run people over, to prevent bad guys from committing arson, stabbing people, beating people, blah blah. How do we stop all of that stuff, and why is the focus always on guns? Controlled media agenda.

    We don't have a special tribute to all the people who were killed by drunk drivers every day on the 6 oclock news, why? Aren't they just as important as someone who was shot?

    People behave badly.

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  13. #88
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    So what are we going to do besides make it illegal (i.e. the honor system)?

    Again, gun show is false.
    The only difference is FFL vs. Private Sale.
    Location of sale is irrelevant.
    Rely on the government that already failed, duh.

    Or misdirect it to something that has no relevance to this situation or any other of these events because we can't admit words on paper does not equate to safety.....

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  14. #89
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    It wouldn't have mattered one bit. We have super lax gun laws here in Maine, I could sell you my AR, mags and all the ammo you want in the local Right Aid parking lot with not so much as even exchanging names. Zero checks, zero paperwork. Horrifying, right?

    Somehow though, in spite of all of gun-hating Massachusetts' silly gun laws, MA still has a higher per-capita gun homicide rate than ME. I didn't bother to look, but I'd be willing to bet MA has significantly more shootings in general that don't result in death than ME does.

    What does it mean? It means all these bullshit gun laws are about as effective as the TSA groping old ladies to keep you safe in flight.
    Probably would venture forth and say that most metropolis encompassing states have similar higher gun homicide rates as compared to primarily rural states, no matter the gun laws.

    "It's a JUMP to conclusions mat!"

    Now if we look at some actual data, not just "feel good jumping to conclusions like the lefties do", then the data gets pretty interesting.

    Handgun waiting periods reduce gun deaths

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    Last edited by TheIglu; 11-07-17 at 12:51 PM.
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  15. #90
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Probably would venture forth and say that most metropolis encompassing states have similar higher gun homicide rates as compared to primarily rural states, no matter the gun laws.

    "It's a JUMP to conclusions mat!"

    Now if we look at some actual data, not just "feel good jumping to conclusions like the lefties do", then the data gets pretty interesting.

    Handgun waiting periods reduce gun deaths
    Actual data? The numbers I posted are facts, whether you like them or not. By the way, the latest mass shooting was in a rural area...

    It's not a jump to conclusion that it's a population/societal issue, not guns. It's also not a jump to conclusion that overall MA gun laws aren't very effective.

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    Member bassomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Yes, we all love our guns and I literally put pounds of lead downrange every week, year round, but what cracks me up (and infuriates me) is the paranoia regarding the "Gubmint taking our guns away" and the whole "slippery slope" argument. I belong to two clubs and have had to listen to the Infowars morons (make that fucking morons) yammer on since 2008 about how Obama/Democrats/Clinton/Pelosi (insert favorite boogyman here) are going to confiscate our guns at the first opportunity which will prevent us all from fighting tyranny and defending our families. No politician who ever wants to get elected or re-elected will vote for any kind of confiscation and simple steps like universal background checks aren't the same thing as confiscation despite what they say on Brietbart and Fox.

    It also cracks me up to hear them blather on about how they "neeeed" ARs and large cap mags for home defense. Now that's funny. If you don't know why an AR sucks for home/self defense (other than for fighting off Anifa hoards when they come to burn your house and indoctrinate your kids) you shouldn't own one.

    Rant over, so here's the question. Does anyone think it would be too restrictive/unconstitutional/etc. for the feds and all states to require that lost or stolen guns be reported? If so I'd love to hear your argument. I didn't know until recently that in almost 40 states, your guns can "disappear" and you don't have to report it. wtff?

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    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Actual data? The numbers I posted are facts, whether you like them or not. By the way, the latest mass shooting was in a rural area...

    It's not a jump to conclusion that it's a population/societal issue, not guns. It's also not a jump to conclusion that overall MA gun laws aren't very effective.
    Did you read the study?

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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Did you read the study?
    I didn't read it. I studied that bish.

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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by MUZ720 View Post
    My point about NH is its darn easy to get a gun over say Mass.
    And that is because the United States Constitution says we can. Massachusetts violates the second amendment no matter what the courts say. "Shall not be infringed" isn't all that difficult to understand.

    And No I would not give up anything.

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  20. #95
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by bassomatic View Post
    Yes, we all love our guns and I literally put pounds of lead downrange every week, year round, but what cracks me up (and infuriates me) is the paranoia regarding the "Gubmint taking our guns away" and the whole "slippery slope" argument. I belong to two clubs and have had to listen to the Infowars morons (make that fucking morons) yammer on since 2008 about how Obama/Democrats/Clinton/Pelosi (insert favorite boogyman here) are going to confiscate our guns at the first opportunity which will prevent us all from fighting tyranny and defending our families. No politician who ever wants to get elected or re-elected will vote for any kind of confiscation and simple steps like universal background checks aren't the same thing as confiscation despite what they say on Brietbart and Fox.

    It also cracks me up to hear them blather on about how they "neeeed" ARs and large cap mags for home defense. Now that's funny. If you don't know why an AR sucks for home/self defense (other than for fighting off Anifa hoards when they come to burn your house and indoctrinate your kids) you shouldn't own one.

    Rant over, so here's the question. Does anyone think it would be too restrictive/unconstitutional/etc. for the feds and all states to require that lost or stolen guns be reported? If so I'd love to hear your argument. I didn't know until recently that in almost 40 states, your guns can "disappear" and you don't have to report it. wtff?

    As you know the paranoia started well before Obama's reign. And as was touched on briefly earlier, no administration is ever going to limit our ability to have guns. How would a background check work when I sell a gun to a random dude I know from the gym? Or do you want to do away with private sales? I don't have a record of all the serial numbers of all of my guns, if I drop one in the lake I wouldn't know where to begin reporting it. Same if it were stolen. It wouldn't be a huge effort to record that info, but why? So the gov knows there's a "gun on the loose" somewhere, anywhere?

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  21. #96
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhuze View Post
    And that is because the United States Constitution says we can. Massachusetts violates the second amendment no matter what the courts say. "Shall not be infringed" isn't all that difficult to understand.

    And No I would not give up anything.
    The amendments have been held by the Supreme Court not to be absolute. So, no.

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  22. #97
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Did you read the study?
    Partially. It wasn't really the point I was getting at when you replied. Did the study take into account any deaths by other means because the murderer had to wait too long for his handgun?
    For me a waiting period would be an inconvenience. For some it might be life or death?

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  23. #98
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by bassomatic View Post
    Y
    It also cracks me up to hear them blather on about how they "neeeed" ARs and large cap mags for home defense. Now that's funny. If you don't know why an AR sucks for home/self defense (other than for fighting off Anifa hoards when they come to burn your house and indoctrinate your kids) you shouldn't own one.
    There's a lot of reasons why the AR platform is preferred by SWAT etc.... for close quarter operations. MA State police had a paper a few years ago on it as well. AR's are fantastic for home defense for a bunch of different reasons, particularly if you have an SBR. I'm not sure why you would make that statement.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 11-07-17 at 01:58 PM.
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  24. #99
    Where is my fast? GixerJockey's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    There's a lot of reasons why the AR platform is preferred by SWAT etc.... for close quarter operations. MA State police had a paper a few years ago on it as well. AR's are fantastic for home defense for a bunch of different reasons, particularly if you have an SBR. I'm not sure why you would make that statement.
    Disagree... AR's suck for home defense... There ins't a center fire rifle cartridge that'll stay contained within the building. Nor a center fire pistol cartridge for that matter. A few years ago, a friend had an AD of a 9mm hollow point in his home. That damn thing went through a dresser, 2 walls, and came to rest in a stud within the 3rd wall. Stop and think about where those fuckers are gonna end up when you start touching off 5.56 rounds in a house. If a 9mm went through a piece of furniture and 3 walls, imagine how deep, into your neighbors house, a bunch of 3000 fps projectiles are going to go. Hell, they're going to go through the intruder, through a couple walls of your house, and probably through a couple walls of the house next door.

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  25. #100
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Partially. It wasn't really the point I was getting at when you replied. Did the study take into account any deaths by other means because the murderer had to wait too long for his handgun?
    For me a waiting period would be an inconvenience. For some it might be life or death?
    The study does take that into account. It was very thorough.

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