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Give up Your Guns?

  1. #101
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?


    Quote Originally Posted by GixerJockey View Post
    Disagree... AR's suck for home defense... There ins't a center fire rifle cartridge that'll stay contained within the building. Nor a center fire pistol cartridge for that matter. A few years ago, a friend had an AD of a 9mm hollow point in his home. That damn thing went through a dresser, 2 walls, and came to rest in a stud within the 3rd wall. Stop and think about where those fuckers are gonna end up when you start touching off 5.56 rounds in a house. If a 9mm went through a piece of furniture and 3 walls, imagine how deep, into your neighbors house, a bunch of 3000 fps projectiles are going to go. Hell, they're going to go through the intruder, through a couple walls of your house, and probably through a couple walls of the house next door.
    You're discounting that a high speed .223 (or 5.56) round fragments and spins when it hits something. The heavier, but slower 9mm round just punches through things.

    It's like a Smart car that pinballs off what it hits and sheds pieces vs a pickup truck that just slams through.

    Penetration of a .223 round through drywall is only lethal for 1-2 layers. 9mm much more so, as your friend discovered.

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  2. #102
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    The study does take that into account. It was very thorough.
    10-4. I'll bring it up when I get home and read it through.

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  3. #103
    Grizzly Fuckin Adams dhuze's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    The amendments have been held by the Supreme Court not to be absolute. So, no.
    And as I stated, I don't care what the courts say. The constitution WAS put in place to be absolute. Just because some panty waist pussies took over the court system does not negate the fact of why we have a constitution.

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    Last edited by dhuze; 11-07-17 at 03:15 PM.
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  4. #104
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhuze View Post
    And as I stated, I don't care what the courts say. The constitution WAS put in place to be absolute. Just because some panty waist pussies took over the court system does not negate the fact of why we have a constitution.
    The constitution "absolutely" spells out how it can be changed, as it has been, many times.

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  5. #105
    Where is my fast? GixerJockey's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    You're discounting that a high speed .223 (or 5.56) round fragments and spins when it hits something. The heavier, but slower 9mm round just punches through things.

    It's like a Smart car that pinballs off what it hits and sheds pieces vs a pickup truck that just slams through.

    Penetration of a .223 round through drywall is only lethal for 1-2 layers. 9mm much more so, as your friend discovered.
    Disagree, again... You're discounting that almost no one buys specialty ammo in calibers like that. And the hoards of cheap M855, steel core, that everyone has their mags full of, doesn't fragment not one little bit. And that even the lead core stuff routinely rips the back side of solid wood bowling pins apart, to the point where we can only use them for 1 or 2 rounds at the weekly pin match I shoot.

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  6. #106
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    The issue isn't whether it's illegal or not, the question is whether there was a mechanism in place to prevent him from getting a gun easily.

    The NICS, if properly maintained, would have prevented him from getting a gun at a dealer. However if he failed at that he could have bought one at a gun show just as easily.

    Essentially we are relying on "the honor system" to prevent bad guys from getting guns.
    So what are we going to do besides make it illegal (i.e. the honor system)?
    Robbing banks is illegal. So why do they have tellers behind bulletproof glass? Why do they have armed guards? Why not just have all the money piled on a table in the center of the room?

    The reason is: It's not enough to make robbing banks illegal. You also need to make robbing banks difficult.

    As an example:

    Germany is a country with a relatively high rate of gun ownership. Hunting is popular there, and so are gun clubs. The country has a long history with firearms; the rifled bore was invented there.

    The US is more violent than Germany. Non-gun homicides in the US are 60% higher than those in Germany (per capita). Yet the US gun homicide rate is over 50x that of Germany (again per capita). This is because it's not just illegal for a bad person in Germany to get a gun, it's also difficult.

    If the NICS doesn't prevent bad people from getting guns through private sales, why even have it?

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    Last edited by joeswamp; 11-07-17 at 03:32 PM.
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  7. #107
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    The constitution "absolutely" spells out how it can be changed, as it has been, many times.
    Agreed.

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  8. #108
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    It wouldn't have mattered one bit. We have super lax gun laws here in Maine, I could sell you my AR, mags and all the ammo you want in the local Right Aid parking lot with not so much as even exchanging names. Zero checks, zero paperwork. Horrifying, right?

    Somehow though, in spite of all of gun-hating Massachusetts' silly gun laws, MA still has a higher per-capita gun homicide rate than ME. I didn't bother to look, but I'd be willing to bet MA has significantly more shootings in general that don't result in death than ME does.
    Since the 1998 legislation, the Gun Homicide rate in MA has doubled, and the rate at which guns are used in robberies and assaults has also increased.

    The gun the Tsarneav’s obtained was originally purchased in Maine by a straw purchaser, who was given the money to buy it by a drug gang.

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    Last edited by Garandman; 11-07-17 at 05:38 PM.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Since the 1998 legislation, the Gun Homicide rate in MA has doubled, and the rate at which guns are used in robberies and assaults has also increased.
    Hey now, they just banned bump stocks. Now the sheeple will be safe from the .00001% of homicides that are by rifle in MA.

    Doing something. Boo ya.

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  10. #110
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    How many mass shootings using an assault rifle has MA had since 1998?

    Doing something. Boo ya.

    Cherry picking stats....

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  11. #111
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    How many mass shootings using an assault rifle has MA had since 1998?

    Doing something. Boo ya.

    Cherry picking stats....
    Any rifle/any homicide since 1998............ I think there might have been 2 or 3.

    My point was they "solved" a non-existent problem in Massachusetts.

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  12. #112
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Robbing banks is illegal. So why do they have tellers behind bulletproof glass? Why do they have armed guards?
    armed guards, tellers behind bulletproof glass ? not my bank, or any one I have ever used

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  13. #113
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Robbing banks is illegal. So why do they have tellers behind bulletproof glass? Why do they have armed guards? Why not just have all the money piled on a table in the center of the room?

    The reason is: It's not enough to make robbing banks illegal. You also need to make robbing banks difficult.

    As an example:

    Germany is a country with a relatively high rate of gun ownership. Hunting is popular there, and so are gun clubs. The country has a long history with firearms; the rifled bore was invented there.

    The US is more violent than Germany. Non-gun homicides in the US are 60% higher than those in Germany (per capita). Yet the US gun homicide rate is over 50x that of Germany (again per capita). This is because it's not just illegal for a bad person in Germany to get a gun, it's also difficult.

    If the NICS doesn't prevent bad people from getting guns through private sales, why even have it?
    Does Germany have gang violence like the U.S.? Do they have similar drug problems? Any other differences? I think it's a stretch to compare two different societies and blame gun murders solely on ease of access.

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  14. #114
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    armed guards, tellers behind bulletproof glass ? not my bank, or any one I have ever used
    Same here. But I did have go into that bulletproof box thing to buy a coke at a convenience store. In MA.

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  15. #115
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhuze View Post
    And as I stated, I don't care what the courts say. The constitution WAS put in place to be absolute. Just because some panty waist pussies took over the court system does not negate the fact of why we have a constitution.
    Again, no. What do you think a supreme court is supposed to do? The Constitution itself created the Supreme Court, FFS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art. III Sec. I
    The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.
    If the Constitution was supposed to be absolute, then it couldn't be amended, in which case.. well, we wouldn't have the 2nd Amendment. Or any other amendments. But that's none of my business...

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Does Germany have gang violence like the U.S.? Do they have similar drug problems? Any other differences? I think it's a stretch to compare two different societies and blame gun murders solely on ease of access.
    Given that Germany is literally home to the Nazis of old and the Neo-Nazis of new, then yes, I'd say Germany does have gang violence.

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    Last edited by number9; 11-07-17 at 05:00 PM.
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  16. #116
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    Again, no. What do you think a supreme court is supposed to do? The Constitution itself created the Supreme Court, FFS.

    If the Constitution was supposed to be absolute, then it couldn't be amended, in which case.. well, we wouldn't have the 2nd Amendment. Or any other amendments. But that's none of my business...

    Given Germany is literally home to the Nazis of old and the Neo-Nazis of new, then yes, I'd say Germany does have gang violence.
    Huh. Those Nazi's of old don't count. Nobody is looking at gun violence stats that old. If we're including them, they win. Come on. As for neo-assholes aren't they more hated in Germany than here?

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  17. #117
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Does Germany have gang violence like the U.S.? Do they have similar drug problems? Any other differences? I think it's a stretch to compare two different societies and blame gun murders solely on ease of access.
    Germany has criminal gangs from eastern europe and the middle east, drugs from the russian mafia, and all sorts of other fun stuff. But the question here is not to compare absolute levels of violent crime between Germany and the US, it is why there is such a huge preference in the US to use firearms for homicides. Again:

    - Both countries have high rates of firearm ownership
    - The US has 1.6 times the non-firearm homicide rate of Germany
    - The US has 51.4 times the gun homicide rate of Germany

    Why the huge discrepancy? Are you suggesting that German murderers simply dislike using guns for cultural reasons?

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  18. #118
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    There's certainly differences in the penal code as well. Pretty difficult to make a direct comparison

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  19. #119
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    i posted this article in the other thread but i think it's an interesting read regarding comparison to other countries, which you guys are now bringing up here.

    curious to hear thoughts because it covers all the standard responses/excuses.

    What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings? International Comparisons Suggest an Answer - The New York Times

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  20. #120
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Huh. Those Nazi's of old don't count. Nobody is looking at gun violence stats that old. If we're including them, they win. Come on. As for neo-assholes aren't they more hated in Germany than here?
    Nobody likes gang violence! But to say Germany doesn't have a gang problem is... inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    There's certainly differences in the penal code as well. Pretty difficult to make a direct comparison
    The problem with all this "It's difficult to make a comparison!" hand-waving is that it's ultimately code for, "No other country has a problem this severe, so let's just talk about something else".

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  21. #121
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    Nobody likes gang violence! But to say Germany doesn't have a gang problem is... inaccurate.

    The problem with all this "It's difficult to make a comparison!" hand-waving is that it's ultimately code for, "No other country has a problem this severe, so let's just talk about something else".
    Your assumption is that I'm truly interested in the comparison. The U.S. is a dfifferent country and is pretty awesome in a lot of ways. I'm not interested in turning into Germany, or Australia, or Britain or France etc....

    Mass shooting hysteria is manufactured by the media. Stop sensationalizing these people and they won't seek the attention.

    As for the rest of the "gun violence" in the U.S. addressing the socio-economic issues that plaque the inner cities and suicide prevention will yield greater dividends without infringing on anyone's rights in the process.

    That will mean we need to acknowledge human problems instead of blaming an object though. Fat chance that happens in a country that refuses to take accountability for anything.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 11-07-17 at 07:49 PM.
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  22. #122
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Your assumption is that I'm truly interested in the comparison.
    Thank you for proving my point...

    The U.S. is a dfifferent country and is pretty awesome in a lot of ways. I'm not interested in turning into Germany, or Australia, or Britain or France etc....
    Those other countries are pretty awesome too. Here is a list of mass shootings in decreasing order of victims:

    1. Norway, Oslo/Utoeya (2011) 77
    2. USA, Las Vegas (2017) 59
    3. USA, Orlando, Florida (2016) 49
    4. Australia, Port Arthur (1996) 35
    5. USA, Blacksburg, Virginia (2007) 32
    6. USA, Newtown, Connecticut (2012) 27
    7. USA, Killeen, Texas (1991) 23
    8. USA, San Ysidro, California (1984) 21
    9. Brazil (1997) 17
    10. Scotland, Dunblane (1996) 17
    11. Germany, Erfurt (2002) 16
    12. England, Hungerford (1987) 16
    13. USA, Austin, Texas (1966) 16
    14. Germany, Winnenden (2009) 15
    15. Switzerland, Zug (2001) 14
    16. USA, Edmond, Oklahoma (1986) 14
    17. New Zealand, Aramoana (1990) 13
    18. USA, Fort Hood, Texas (2009) 13
    19. USA, Littleton, Colorado (1999) 13
    20. USA, Binhampton, New York (2009) 13
    21. France, Toulon (1995) 13
    22. USA, Aurora, Texas (2012) 12
    23. Azerbaijan, Baku (2009) 12
    24. USA, Atlanta, Georgia (1999) 12
    25. USA, Jacksonville, Florida (1990) 10
    26. Finland, Kauhajok (2008) 10
    27. USA, Alabama (2009) 10
    28. USA, Red Lake, Minnesota (2005) 9
    29. USA, Los Angeles, California (2008) 9
    30. Canada, Montreal (1989) 9
    31. France, Nanterre (2002) 8
    32. Finland, Tuusula (2007) 8
    33. Japan, Osaka (2001) 8
    34. USA, Fullerton, California (1976)

    So, out of the top 34, we have 17. Half. The next worse is two -- Germany, France, and Finland. I'm not a statistician, but like pornography, I know a trend when I see it.

    Mass shooting hysteria is manufactured by the media. Stop sensationalizing these people and they won't seek the attention.
    So now it's the media's fault? Got it.

    As for the rest of the "gun violence" in the U.S. addressing the socio-economic issues that plaque the inner cities and suicide prevention will yield greater dividends without infringing on anyone's rights in the process.

    That will mean we need to acknowledge human problems instead of blaming an object though. Fat chance that happens in a country that refuses to take accountability for anything.
    So now it's society's fault? Or the economy's fault? Or maybe both?

    At the end of the day, we don't care enough to change. We might as well admit it...

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    Last edited by number9; 11-07-17 at 08:22 PM.
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  23. #123
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    There are many different problems that need different solutions. Anybody who insists on a one size fits all solution is an idiot. There are apparently a lot of idiots talking about gun control.

    Yes, the media is complicit. You're trying to put words in my mouth but if you truly can't see the role they play there's no point in reading any further.

    Gangs and the problems we see with violence in the inner cities is absolutely a socio-economic issue. Address those problems and we'll all be better off in many different ways. Putting our heads in the sand and blaming guns for the violence there is assinine.

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  24. #124
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Times
    This suggests that the guns themselves cause the violence.
    What did I just read?

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  25. #125
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    OK, here are 3 lessons I have learned from my time on NESR:

    1. Rotella is the bomb. If you dare to run a different oil, your motor will explode and you will never win any race.
    2. There are no intellectual discussions here, only people talking at each other and repeating what they have always said. No one concedes, acknowledges, finds common ground.
    3. A high percentage of the NESR population just likes to argue for the sake of arguing. Its like they get their rocks off by just disagreeing, no matter what the topic at hand.
    4. There is a high incidence rate of people with a sense of humor. Lots of genuinely funny people on the payroll.
    5. Peter Gaborioult has been around a long time. One day you search for something, and a thread from 2002 pops up and you start reading, and bam, Peter G has posted something in it.
    6. There seems to be a high incidence rate of the pro-gun, pro-liberty crowd, atypical of the general demographic of Cambridge/Boston/MA/educational capital of the free world. Proximity to NH and ME may have something to do with that.
    7. Never trust someone who says they learned 3 lessons but proceed to type 7 lessons.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 11-07-17 at 09:09 PM.

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