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Give up Your Guns?

  1. #151
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?


    If that were the case, we'd be last on the list. Our employment rate is better than most, and MASSIVELY better than many. Keep guessing.

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  2. #152
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Employment / Unemployment only measures people that are in the workforce. It doesn't take into account those that are out of the workforce, which is a completely different number.

    Men without Work: America’s Invisible Crisis | Cato Institute The video is about an hour, but it's still faster than reading the book.

    In 2015 1 in 6 men (in society, excludes those incarcerated) between 25-54 were not employed at all.

    In 2015 the employment rate for men, of any wage rate was worse than it was at the end of the great depression (1940).

    We used to consider 2 statuses for Men. Working or Looking for a job. Today there are 3. Working, Looking for a Job, Not looking for work. Over the past 50 years the Not looking for work has been the fastest growing. For every 1 man (25-54) who is unemployed (looking for work) there are 3 men who are Not Looking for work.

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    Last edited by jasnmar; 11-08-17 at 12:53 PM.

  3. #153
    Lifer joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Mass shootings get most of the publicity, because they’re almost always white people.

    But most gun murders are in cities, and mostly in select areas of those cities, and mostly young men of color. In Chicago, personal handgun ownership was essentially prohibited from 1985 until a few years ago (when they lost a Supreme Coyrt case). How’d that work for them?
    Again, too much dependence on the honor system. The local gun laws in Chicago were effectively meaningless because anyone could just ride a bicycle to the suburbs or to Indiana and purchase guns there. See this article.

    I grew up in Chicago and we used to do the same thing with fireworks as kids. Everything was illegal in Chicago, but a quick bike ride to Indiana and we could get whatever we wanted.

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  4. #154
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    We used to consider 2 statuses for Men. Working or Looking for a job. Today there are 3. Working, Looking for a Job, Not looking for work. Over the past 50 years the Not looking for work has been the fastest growing. For every 1 man (25-54) who is unemployed (looking for work) there are 3 men who are Not Looking for work.
    When the unemployment was broken into two categories, it started to look bad politically. The third status was added and it was removed from jobless reports several years back. Now we get the massaged unemployment number, which really is not a complete story of the job landscape.

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  5. #155
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Again, too much dependence on the honor system. The local gun laws in Chicago were effectively meaningless because anyone could just ride a bicycle to the suburbs or to Indiana and purchase guns there.
    or ya could just step into an ally and get em out of some guy's trunk

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  6. #156
    Lifer backinthesaddle's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    Lesson 9: We're on a site called NEW ENGLAND STREET RIDERS and in the middle of the EICMA, yet NOBODY gives a shit about bikes. All anyone seems to care about here is guns and politics.
    I'm liking that V4 pani, but not much going on in that thread.

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  7. #157
    Where is my fast? GixerJockey's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    That is sound advice for all y'all city dwellers, but for those of us who are rural and potentially not only have to clear a house but a few acres of land it makes a lot more sense. Regardless of 9mm of 5.56/.223, the most important factor is that you are proficient with what you have and don't rely on something like drywall or even studs to stop a round. A rifle is much more versatile unless you're in an apartment complex or truly see yourself shooting towards your neighbors house.
    I'll agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    You seriously cannot make this shit up.
    I could if I wanted

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean about specialty ammo, but regular .223 is cheap and readily available.
    Hornady TAP, Speer Gold Dot Duty, Federal Hi-Shock...

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  8. #158
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Again, too much dependence on the honor system. The local gun laws in Chicago were effectively meaningless because anyone could just ride a bicycle to the suburbs or to Indiana and purchase guns there. See this article.

    I grew up in Chicago and we used to do the same thing with fireworks as kids. Everything was illegal in Chicago, but a quick bike ride to Indiana and we could get whatever we wanted.
    That article said the 2 biggest sources were in Chicago and over 40% originated in Illinois.

    What I find interesting is that the ATF traceback data shows the vast majority originate in Illinois.

    Same for MA, CA, NY etc. ATF data shows the vast majority of guns used in crime originate from the same state, not cross border.

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  9. #159
    Lifer joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Again, too much dependence on the honor system. The local gun laws in Chicago were effectively meaningless because anyone could just ride a bicycle to the suburbs or to Indiana and purchase guns there. See this article.

    I grew up in Chicago and we used to do the same thing with fireworks as kids. Everything was illegal in Chicago, but a quick bike ride to Indiana and we could get whatever we wanted.

    That article said the 2 biggest sources were in Chicago and over 40% originated in Illinois.

    What I find interesting is that the ATF traceback data shows the vast majority originate in Illinois.

    Same for MA, CA, NY etc. ATF data shows the vast majority of guns used in crime originate from the same state, not cross border.
    The straw purchasers will only go as far as they need to. There are gun shops that are very "straw purchaser friendly", for example this one. Note that this store is technically not in Chicago, it is in Riverdale (a suburb). The border towns of Indiana are another popular source -- the city of Chicago borders Indiana.

    The point is that the Chicago gun laws were meaningless because they did nothing to reduce the availability of guns just outside the city.

    Also: I'm confused when you say that Illinois supplied 40% of the crime guns and that this was the "vast majority"? The statistics I've seen say that Illinois was the state with the largest percentage, but the other 60% came generally from states with weaker gun laws. Lots come from Indiana and states down south where gang members visit relatives.

    See http://www.chicagobusiness.com/Asset...acing-Guns.pdf

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  10. #160
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Also: I'm confused when you say that Illinois supplied 40% of the crime guns and that this was the "vast majority"? The statistics I've seen say that Illinois was the state with the largest percentage, but the other 60% came generally from states with weaker gun laws. Lots come from Indiana and states down south where gang members visit relatives.

    See http://www.chicagobusiness.com/Asset...acing-Guns.pdf
    I read a bit of that .pdf, which is more than I can say for its author. You can't do this to the English language:

    Illinois, like nearly every other state, is the single largest source of guns recovered in Chicago and supplies 40 percent of the total guns recovered in the City..
    That makes no sense; every other state can not be the single largest source of guns recovered in Chicago. By definition, only one state can be the largest, unless they're all equal. I assume what the author meant to say was that, in most states, the preponderance of guns used are already in the state -- they're not imported from somewhere else, so to speak. (He goes on to clarify that that's what he meant in the next paragraph. But still...)

    In terms of your "vast majority" question, I think that comes from here:

    The largest out-of-state sources of Chicago's illegal guns were Indiana, Mississippi, and Wisconsin, which supplied 19 percent, 6.7 percent, and 3.6 percent of these crime guns, respectively.
    Ignoring the fact that I don't know what a "crime gun" is, if 40% of the guns come from inside Illinois, and the largest out-of-state source is 20%, then that is correctly described as being a vast majority.

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    Last edited by number9; 11-08-17 at 04:51 PM.
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  11. #161
    Lifer joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    Ignoring the fact that I don't know what a "crime gun" is, if 40% of the guns come from inside Illinois, and the largest out-of-state source is 20%, then that is correctly described as being a vast majority.
    Isn't this the difference between a plurality and a majority?

    Illinois would supply a vast majority if it supplied significantly more than 50% of the crime guns.

    However if you consider all states in competition with one another to supply crime guns to Chicago, Illinois wins a vast plurality.

    I believe a "crime gun" is a gun used to commit a crime, and recovered in the aftermath.

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    Last edited by joeswamp; 11-08-17 at 04:59 PM.
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  12. #162
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    My vast majority statements was about the disparity between a report from the most corrupt city in the country and what the ATF traceback data says.

    Give up Your Guns?-screenshot_20171108-172930-jpg

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  13. #163
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by tls25rs View Post
    Some things are better seen in person........................I could show you a ton of pictures of the riding in WV but I bet you are happy you went and did it instead of looked at the pictures. Plus it gives people something to do during the winter months for a couple of hours.
    But that's doing something. I'm talking about going and looking at a whole bunch of things that are meant to be ridden, but you can't thumb the start button. Meh to each their own... Plus I can't afford any of that shit.

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  14. #164
    Lifer
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    It's our right to own firearms. Does there really need to be more explanation?
    Of course it does. He's asking why it's a right. What purpose it serves. It isn't that crazy of a question. And if you want to get anywhere with people who don't understand it, you need to try and help them understand it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuvDog View Post
    Our founding fathers recognized that if we didn't have our right to bear arms then we would never have been an independent country to begin with.

    So they wrote the amendment to restrict the ability of the government to ever take that away from us. The 2nd amendment doesn't give us the right, it limits the governments ability to infringe on that right.
    Wellllll.... an important part of the 2nd amendment often gets left out of the debate/discussion. The part about the militia. I believe supreme court interpretation has generally held that you are not required to be part of a militia to still have the right to arms. But it could be argued that the text isn't the clearest.

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Are you able to have a legitimate discussion without resorting to insults or swear words?
    Come on ... skip the bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    Dont know about Texas asshole but up until now ALL, ALL mass shooters have been democrats
    FACT CHECK: Is This List of Democrat Shooters Accurate?
    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    What I find puzzling is how anachronistic the 2nd amendment is, in the modern world where Governments have things called nuclear bombs, drones, chemical weapons, satellite weapons, aircraft carriers..... Individual citizens having guns doesn't guarantee even a modicum of security against an oppressive government because the balance of power has shifted so far out of bounds. Said another way, in the 1700s, guns and perhaps canons were the most destructive weapon around. Individual weapons weren't that different from government's weapons, except perhaps in just sheer numbers. A bunch of farmers could band together and fight the oppressor successfully.

    It is not the case in the 21st century, and so I find it amusing that people still want to hold on to their guns thinking it gives them some defense against the government.
    Bit out of my element here, but I'm pretty sure that's the same over-confidence that 'lost' the war in Vietnam, and why we're still looking for people in caves in the desert. Guerilla warfare is apparently pretty effective. Most modern militarizes are highly dependent on technology, and the 21st century has introduced a new attack angle for both governments and civilians to use against each other. And that goes hand-in-hand with a previous poster's point about a lot of that stuff being developed by civilians. I'm sure some disgruntled employees would have some gems should it ever be needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    It's like half the gun nuts just have a massive hard-on for trying to "catch" someone in a situation where they can legally, or quasi-legally kill someone.
    Ding ding ding - Winner. Well, I dunno about the massive part. It's a combination of hero-fantasy and a need to distribute punishment personally.

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  15. #165
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    .....

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 02-13-18 at 09:03 AM.

  16. #166
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Most, if not all, the people I know who own guns have a bachelor's at minimum

    Considering more and more people are getting degrees and we're seeing record numbers of sales I'm sure those percentages will change as well.

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  17. #167
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    .....

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 02-13-18 at 09:03 AM.

  18. #168
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    Of course it does. He's asking why it's a right. What purpose it serves. It isn't that crazy of a question. And if you want to get anywhere with people who don't understand it, you need to try and help them understand it.

    Wellllll.... an important part of the 2nd amendment often gets left out of the debate/discussion. The part about the militia. I believe supreme court interpretation has generally held that you are not required to be part of a militia to still have the right to arms. But it could be argued that the text isn't the clearest.

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    Come on ... skip the bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -


    FACT CHECK: Is This List of Democrat Shooters Accurate?

    Bit out of my element here, but I'm pretty sure that's the same over-confidence that 'lost' the war in Vietnam, and why we're still looking for people in caves in the desert. Guerilla warfare is apparently pretty effective. Most modern militarizes are highly dependent on technology, and the 21st century has introduced a new attack angle for both governments and civilians to use against each other. And that goes hand-in-hand with a previous poster's point about a lot of that stuff being developed by civilians. I'm sure some disgruntled employees would have some gems should it ever be needed.

    Ding ding ding - Winner. Well, I dunno about the massive part. It's a combination of hero-fantasy and a need to distribute punishment personally.
    No lack of understanding, I do find it to be a pretty crazy question which is why I commented.

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  19. #169
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Don't mean to discredit, but it doesnt matter who you know. Those stats are for the entire country and are statistically significant.

    And we are talking about today's society. Irrelevant what your opinions are about where the stats will go in the future.

    Top 3 out of 5 google hits reveal an interesting inference: lower levels of education and gun ownership are correlated. If you know stats, you know that correlation is not causality. But correlation is in itself significant to draw conclusions from.

    That stat also explains the philosophical differences on gun laws between MA and NH/ME.
    More people per capita graduate High school in ME and NH than MA....

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  20. #170
    Lifer Imbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Maybe people without graduate degrees are <gasp!> more likely to hunt and less likely to live on McMansion Circle in a safe, gated community with all their holier and smarter than thou similarly virtue signaling neighbors, so they'd be more likely to need a gun or twelve.

    Plus, they can afford them because they don't have 6 figure student loans...

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  21. #171
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbeek View Post
    Maybe people without graduate degrees are <gasp!> more likely to hunt and less likely to live on McMansion Circle in a safe, gated community with all their holier and smarter than thou similarly virtue signaling neighbors, so they'd be more likely to need a gun or twelve.

    Plus, they can afford them because they don't have 6 figure student loans...
    You put that much nicer than I would have said it.

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  22. #172
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    I'm pissed that no one told me about the chainsaw bayonet attachment. Fuckers.
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  23. #173
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    It's like half the gun nuts just have a massive hard-on for trying to "catch" someone in a situation where they can legally, or quasi-legally kill someone. That's not a badge of honor I'd like to wear.
    maybe we need a good PURGE 1 day per year
    Attachment 48372


    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Go back to watching Airwolf, idiot.
    How dare you disparage Jan Michael Vincent & Ernest Borgnine

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  24. #174
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    I'm pissed that no one told me about the chainsaw bayonet attachment. Fuckers.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/USATODAY/...43873000054784
    The responses are epic. I like the F16 attachment the best, or maybe the corgi. It's tough to choose.

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  25. #175
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Again, too much dependence on the honor system. The local gun laws in Chicago were effectively meaningless because anyone could just ride a bicycle to the suburbs or to Indiana and purchase guns there. See this article.
    Sure, if you don’t mind commiting two or three felonies that would work.

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