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Give up Your Guns?

  1. #176

    Re: Give up Your Guns?


    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Does someone have any stats on the correlation between advanced education and gun ownership? I am curious.

    EDIT: Here, I googled it. Someone can fact check my sources, but sure enough, there seems to be some stats to support the inference that gun ownership seems to fall with higher levels of education.

    College Post Graduate 30 %
    College Graduate 37 %
    Some College 41 %
    High School Graduate or Less 42 %

    Is there a correlation between gun ownership and level of education? - Quora

    Another source: "Like the gender gap, the education gap in gun ownership is particularly pronounced among whites. Overall, about three-in-ten adults with a high school diploma or less (31%) and 34% of those with some college education say they own a gun; a quarter of those with a bachelor’s degree or more say the same. Among whites, about four-in-ten of those with a high school diploma or less (40%) or with some college (42%) are gun owners, compared with roughly a quarter of white college graduates (26%). There is no significant difference in the rate of gun ownership across educational attainment among nonwhites."

    The demographics of gun ownership in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

    A third source: • Gun ownership in the U.S. 2012, by education | Statistic


    Waiting for the pro-gun guys to immediately side track this discussion about how college education isn't important at all.
    I am sure income has a similar trend. more money less guns (excluding some rich collectors and such). its a pointless comparison IMO. I am sure you can understand why.

    this thread has some great points but both sides for sure.

    unfortunately both sides are so deep in what they think that they refuse to see any valid point made from the opposite end (that is beyond the limits of nesr)

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  2. #177
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by number9
    So now it's the media's fault? Got it.

    So now it's society's fault? Or the economy's fault? Or maybe both?
    ..
    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Yes, the media is complicit. You're trying to put words in my mouth but if you truly can't see the role they play there's no point in reading any further.

    Gangs and the problems we see with violence in the inner cities is absolutely a socio-economic issue. Address those problems and we'll all be better off in many different ways. Putting our heads in the sand and blaming guns for the violence there is assinine.
    The M1 Carbine was produced in immense numbers during WWII. It’s a light, relatively short barreled magazine fed semiautomatic Rifle with standard magazine capacities of 15 to 30 rounds. The cartridge it fires has 967 ft lbs of energy: about three quarters of 5.56 or 7.62x39, and about triple most centerfire handguns. They were sold to citizens through the DCM and CMP until they ran out a few years ago: there are millions in the hands of Americans, even excluding commercially manufactured versions still available.

    So we have, literally, a “military assault rifle” that is nearly identical in all functional ways to AR15 and AK rifles, only there are probably more of them. So how many are used in crimes in general, and mass shootings in particular?

    The answer is “Almost zero” and “zero.” A deranged man murdered a police officer with one: in 1998. Mass shooters use AR15 style rifles almost exclusively, with AK pattern rifles a distant but identifiable second. Why is that?

    Understandably, there is research on what motivates mass shooters. The Columbine incident used an AR15, a rare and not well-regarded gun at the time. Many mass killers study Columbine and later incidents before planning theirs.

    There are other patterns to these shootings. To name a few:
    • The shooters have psychological problems and are often on medication.
    • They are middle class white males.
    • They attack at places where there are large numbers of people.
    • They attack at places where guns are prohibited.
    • They kill themselves as soon as they come under pressure from the police.

    Law Enforcement agencies recognize these patterns and use them to plan their response, knowing the probable result is the suicide of the shooter.

    Media coverage has focused on the instrument - the AR15. If the press coverage had no impact, you’d expect to see these shootings occurring at least some of the time with M1 Carbines: but they don’t.

    Media coverage of the mental health history and psychotropic drug use of these individuals is far less extensive. And in almost every single case, these individuals are federally “Prohibited Persons.” They bought their guns through lawful channels: because many people and institutions failed to report their background to the NICS system. Said another way, media applies less “sunlight” to the government and other institutions (like the USAF) that failed. Bump stocks will be banned in Boston but no USAF officers will be courtmsrtialed.

    Until a few years ago, one of the institutions that didn’t report any PP’s to NICS was the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Boston and other hospitals had successfully argued that reporting to NICS and other measures would create a stigma for those seeking mental health treatment.

    They say if you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail.” Banning “Military style assault rifles” seems like it would be a positive first step, while the issues of mainstreaming crazy people or creating effective mental health treatment programs never gets addressed.

    And, again, all of society’s attention is directed to those dead white people, while (mostly) young men (mostly) of color are killed every day by (mostly) cheap handguns procured by (mostly) drug gangs (mostly) in certain parts of large cities. So along with mental health care and prescription drug use, we can add lack of economic opportunity, social stability, and distrust of law enforcement to issues that are seldom discussed and never addressed.

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    Last edited by Garandman; 11-09-17 at 04:13 AM.
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  3. #178
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    More people per capita graduate High school in ME and NH than MA....
    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_coi.pdf

    By 1-2%. Massachusetts has the highest percentage of residents with college degrees, substantially more as a percentage than ME or NH, and has roughly 6X the population.
    List of U.S. states by educational attainment - Wikipedia

    So the bored girl serving you coffee is 20-40% more likely to have a college degree in MA.

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  4. #179
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    .....

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 02-13-18 at 09:01 AM.

  5. #180
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    That's pretty funny, actually

    Attainability of advanced education is a problem in this country. But that is a separate 10 page thread. Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    Point here is that less educated and poorly educated people are more likely to own guns than more educated. You can't argue or cuss or throw f-bombs at statistics in your support of pro-guns. That's why they are beautiful. Well you can, you'll just be proving the statistic.



    I do NOT understand why. Can you elaborate? Education is a black and white thing. More of it is better. Period. End of story.
    Facepalm. What he was saying is that education is not the cause. It is a surface level statistic that doesn't really say anything about the root cause of why they didn't buy weapons. He's saying that the actual cause is the person who will pursue education because they think it has value are more likely to have no interest in guns. They had no interest in guns before they were educated, and after they were educated they still didn't like them. Shocker.

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  6. #181
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    ....

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 02-13-18 at 09:02 AM.

  7. #182
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    You said correlation isn't causation, but then have a logic failure that indicates you don't believe that.

    We can't infer that people with education stay away from guns any more than we can infer that more Nicolas Cage films will mean more people will drown by falling in pools, even though there is a strong correlation.

    Spurious Correlations

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  8. #183
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    What I find puzzling is how anachronistic the 1st amendment is, in the modern world where Governments have things called satellites, wiretaps, data mining, cryptanalysis, data collection centers, cyber warriors..... Individual citizens having free speech doesn't guarantee even a modicum of security against an oppressive government because the balance of power has shifted so far out of bounds. Said another way, in the 1700s, printing presses, books and print newspapers were the most powerful forms of mass communication around. Individual means of speech weren't that different from government's means, except perhaps in just sheer numbers. A bunch of farmers could band together and communicate better than the oppressor successfully.

    It is not the case in the 21st century, and so I find it amusing that people still want to hold on to free speech thinking it gives them some defense against the government.
    FFY.

    Gun Debate Divides Nation's Police Officers, Too : NPR

    Police Gun Control Survey: Are legally-armed citizens the best solution to gun violence?

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    Last edited by Garandman; 11-09-17 at 06:48 AM.
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  9. #184
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Every one will jump on me but.....

    We used to indoctrinate children in church every Sunday.
    A vengeful God >>>

    See everything you do
    Knows what evil is in your heart
    Will benefit the good and punish the wicked
    If you live a good life avoiding great sins (murder in this case) then you can go live forever in Heaven less eternal torture in hell

    Protestants believed your deal with the almighty was personal, Catholics that a priest can absolve you (shakey jelly morality)

    This simple societal tool went a long way in controlling behavior for the masses

    Additionally EVERYONE knew the character of most people and would shun you if you were not a stand up person. The clubs and churches were the internet of the day
    and if you were caught doing something the memories were long

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  10. #185
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    You said correlation isn't causation, but then have a logic failure that indicates you don't believe that.

    We can't infer that people with education stay away from guns any more than we can infer that more Nicolas Cage films will mean more people will drown by falling in pools, even though there is a strong correlation.

    Spurious Correlations
    What? Did you see the 3 sources I quoted earlier? Yes, people with higher levels of education stay away from guns. Most definitely.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 11-09-17 at 08:26 AM.

  11. #186
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    What? Did you see the 3 sources I quoted earlier? Yes, people with higher levels of education stay away from guns. Most definitely.

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  12. #187
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_coi.pdf

    By 1-2%. Massachusetts has the highest percentage of residents with college degrees, substantially more as a percentage than ME or NH, and has roughly 6X the population.
    List of U.S. states by educational attainment - Wikipedia

    So the bored girl serving you coffee is 20-40% more likely to have a college degree in MA.
    I got my stats from the Census Bureau. NH graduation rate was about 3.5% higher than MA, and NH degree rate was 5% less than MA. Gap was bigger for ME.

    That bored girl would probably be fun to ride, but who would want her for more than that? Serving coffee and sitting on that 6 figure student loan debt...

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  13. #188
    Lifer joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    Again, too much dependence on the honor system. The local gun laws in Chicago were effectively meaningless because anyone could just ride a bicycle to the suburbs or to Indiana and purchase guns there. See this article.
    Sure, if you don’t mind commiting two or three felonies that would work.
    I am quite sure these people do not mind. These are not the types of folks that turn down marijuana at parties, saying, "Oh I couldn't do that, it's technically illegal."

    Also, I don't know the numbers on straw purchaser prosecution but I think it's traditionally been difficult and expensive. The problem is you have to prove intent, and the person can always say that the gun was privately sold or stolen. You usually don't know a straw purchase took place until after the gun is recovered in a crime.

    It's interesting that gun shops that specialize in straw purchasing (like Chuck's Guns, mentioned above) manage to stay in business.

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  14. #189
    Lifer Imbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Now we are getting somewhere!

    In the interest of fully eliminating gun violence in the US, I hereby co-propose new legislation named in honor of a man who was once-living proof that highly educated people avoid guns.

    Co-sponsored by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, It is called “The Unabomber Bill,” and given the data correlating edumacated people with logically concluding that guns are beneath people of their elevated intellect, it will mandate that the US Government pay for free PhD’s for anyone with a pulse. Funding should be no problem, given the projected savings from never again needing to supply our...or anyone else’s...troops with now (in the age of nukes and drones) outdated and obsolete conventional rifles, handguns, and ammunition.

    Preference will be given for the millions of newly required teaching positions to those with Native American heritage, (only to promote bow and arrow target sports)

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  15. #190
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    What? Did you see the 3 sources I quoted earlier? Yes, people with higher levels of education stay away from guns. Most definitely.
    3 sources of correlation is still correlation.

    Did you not see where the number of Nicolas Cage movies impacts the number of people drowning in pools? What about the correlation between per capita cheese consumption having a strong (.94%) correlation to people who die by becoming tangled in their bed sheets!

    We should obviously outlaw cheese and Nicolas Cage movies. Both would save lives!!!! (the 2nd might...)

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  16. #191
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    ....

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 02-13-18 at 09:02 AM.

  17. #192
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    jasnmar, that's a pretty weak counter, and a common one. You typically don't go that route, so I am surprised.
    You're totally right. That's fucked up. He should have never brought Nicholas Cage into the conversation.

    My apologies on his behalf.

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  18. #193
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    The uber pro-gun crowd has always had a problem with statistics, unless of course the topic is non gun related, then yay statistics!

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  19. #194
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    The uber pro-gun crowd has always had a problem with statistics, unless of course the topic is non gun related, then yay statistics!
    Thanks for snapping me back to reality. For a minute, I was scratching my head. What's amusing is that the uber pro-gun crowd are totally playing to the stereotype that statistic implies. I'd love to do a poll of everyone who has posted in this thread, and their level of education.

    Carry on.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 11-09-17 at 09:39 AM.

  20. #195
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Now if we look at some actual data, not just "feel good jumping to conclusions like the lefties do", then the data gets pretty interesting.

    Handgun waiting periods reduce gun deaths
    So what did y'all think of this?

    If we're gunna be all quoting stats and data, love to hear how this study was flawed or right.

    Or is it phake gnu's?

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  21. #196
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    So what did y'all think of this?

    If we're gunna be all quoting stats and data, love to hear how this study was flawed or right.

    Or is it phake gnu's?
    It's a very solid piece. And in the end, expanding the waiting period for all of us who don't currently have it will potentially save 910 lives annually...

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  22. #197
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    I'd love to do a poll of everyone who has posted in this thread, and their level of education.
    I think you'll find your statistics don't match up. My money is on most being college educated, at least in this thread.

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  23. #198
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    So what did y'all think of this?

    If we're gunna be all quoting stats and data, love to hear how this study was flawed or right.

    Or is it phake gnu's?
    What I find interesting is that MA doesn't have a waiting period and I don't see how adding one would reduce homicide here.

    You need an LTC, to purchase and I would think the vast majority who have an LTC have at least one firearm. If something sets them off, a "cooling off" period isn't going to change anything because you already have one.

    So my thought is the assumptions are pretty broad at first glance. If waiting periods reduce homicides I would think they only reduce them that 17% in the free states where if you pass NICS you're good to go. I can't see the same 17% reduction in the Gestapo states like MA, NJ, NY, CT, MD, IL, CA etc.... I'm assuming those states don't already have a waiting period either though.

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  24. #199
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    I'd argue MA does have a defacto waiting period for the first firearm purchase by nature of it's LTC policies.

    I for one am open to longer waiting periods for firearms purchases.
    I'm open to more detailed/sophisticated back ground checks on the condition that the criteria for that check is open and contestable.
    I am also prepared to consider magazine size limits. Although this one I have the greatest conflict over as I believe this is horribly arbitrary. .. But it is doing "something". I suppose.


    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I think you'll find your statistics don't match up. My money is on most being college educated, at least in this thread.
    It doesn't matter because he continues to even argue that education level (or lack thereof) is a cause/lack of gun violence.
    jasnmar's point stands; provide all the stats for a correlation all day long; that does not imply causation.

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  25. #200
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Give up Your Guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I'd argue MA does have a defacto waiting period for the first firearm purchase by nature of it's LTC policies.
    Yes, but that's not how the link defined a waiting period. They defined it as a period of time between purchase and delivery. Using that definition, I don't see how a 17% reduction would apply to MA.

    LTC holders are among the most vetted residents in the state. I suppose a few might have murdered someone here and there, but the vast majority of homicides in MA aren't committed by "gun nuts".

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