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Hillary

  1. #51
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary


    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    I always thought that Bill's campaign was financed by the Chinese so give the Arabs a chance

    You will not see any of this on TV
    I thought they already had it. With Obama

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  2. #52
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    This is starting to make more sense.

    The irony is that Bush Sr was born in MA and Bush Jr was born in CT. LIBERALS!
    LOL that wasn't even a dig at Obama, more at Harvard, which is a joke.

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  3. #53
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by scottieducati View Post
    LOL that wasn't even a dig at Obama, more at Harvard, which is a joke.
    I know, they both went there. Damn college liberals/conservatives!

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  4. #54
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    That's not the fault of the kids going to college, it's the fault of the people telling them that it's the only way. It's the fault of the people doing the hiring that won't consider you unless you put yourself into 150k in debt before you even start your life.
    It most definitely is the students' fault. If you go 150k in debt getting your liberal arts degree from a name-brand school and you have that fancy diploma but no marketable skills you're getting what you deserve. And fuck your parents if they suggested it was a good idea. Kids that get a useless degree because "math is too hard" probably shouldn't be going to school in the first place. But those kids probably don't want to go to work either so why not have another 4 years to fuck off after high school - except for that big bill at the end...
    I don't see how it has anything to do with employers, either you have the required skills for the job or you don't.

    I do agree with you that higher education is not the only way, but most of the people I know with high school educations (that are successful) had a great work ethic and are self employed. They probably would be equally or more successful had they chosen to go to college.

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  5. #55
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    He is pushing through the Right To Work bill now. This is different from what he tried a while ago, which was to bar PUBLIC unions. Not all. Just ones paid via taxpayer money.


    I agree that people not in the union should not get the collective bargaining aspect of it. They should be on their own for negotiation.


    Also, in the interest of fairness, the general voting public should be allowed to vote on contracts proposed by public sector unions. If they can justify unionizing to protect themselves, then certainly they wouldn't oppose the people who pay their salaries via our taxes to do the same.

    Contracts are lengthy and complicated legal and financial documents, and very few voters would read them and understand the finances, terminology, history, and tradeoffs each side made to reach an agreement. Some people would vote based on one or two isolated points in the document, and many would vote solely on their feelings about unions, instead of any of the facts in the agreement.

    We live in a representative democracy. For example, negotiating and approving teacher union contracts is the school committee's legal responsibility, as part of creating the school system's budget, which is their primary legal responsibility. As a voter, my obligation is to know enough about the schools and the school committee to make an informed decision about who I will vote for.

    Anyone with enough interest in making a direct impact on the contract negotiations can run for the school committee, or lobby local government officials to be appointed to it. (I'm not sure if school committee is an elected position for all types of local government.)

    Having the public vote directly on an agreement that the school committee spent months or years negotiating would undercut the school committee's authority, making it impossible for them to negotiate effectively. It could also invalidate their budget, which could impact the approval of the town's budget. If you know anything about how the local budgeting process works, you understand the huge ripple affect this could have on the town.

    If you support the public voting on public union contracts, do you also support having the public vote on contracts with private companies? They both consume taxpayer dollars.

    Let's say one town maintains their streets with unionized town employees driving DPW vehicles, and the total cost is $1 million. The next town over hires a private firm that subcontracts to private contractors driving their own trucks to maintain the roads, and that contract is for $1 million. Would it make sense to vote on the town employee union contract, but not the private contractor contract? Why?

    Should the public have voted on the F-35 program contracts - something that is expected to cost taxpayers more than a Trillion dollars over its lifetime?

    Should the public vote on every contract, or every contract above a certain threshold value, or just public employee contracts?

    What is the rationale for a dividing line between which tax dollars get directly voted on by the public, and which don't?

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    Last edited by oVTo; 02-25-15 at 04:59 PM.
    DanG
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  6. #56
    Lifer
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    It most definitely is the students' fault.
    I go back and forth on that one. I think it's a bit easier to assign some responsibility to the student with more obvious career-challenged degrees. But what about business or communications? In theory, you can get a job with or without the degree. But because so many young people have degrees, you need one just to compete. Too many of those doing the hiring essentially made a degree a requirement. College was right for me, and still would be. But the impression I had when I was 18 was that not going to college was setting up for failure. This was an impression projected by nearly everyone. Don't know what you want to do? Pick a degree and go from there. Don't worry, you can change it once you get there.

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  7. #57

    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    I know a lot that didn't go to college and are useless sacks of shit living off of disability. Same goes for military veterans.

    Funny how if I, a conservative, called illegal immigrants sacks of shit for living off of us the liberals in here
    would be all over me. Not a peep from them about your statement though. "Hypocrites"' comes to mind.

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    Last edited by Rambunctous; 02-25-15 at 06:09 PM.
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  8. #58
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Funny how if I, a conservative, called illegal immigrants sacks of shit for living off of us the liberals in here
    would be all over me. Not a peep from them about your statement though. "Hypocrites"' comes to mind.
    Labels seem to be really important to you. It might surprise you how many of us fall into the middle and cringe when you identify as a conservative or blast liberals every chance you get. Take a minute before you post from the heart (bleeding or not).

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  9. #59
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by oVTo View Post
    Contracts are lengthy and complicated legal and financial documents, and very few voters would read them and understand the
    kinda like senators and representatives voting on an affordable health care act on our behalf


    wait a minute... exactly like that, would the voting public have done a worse job ?

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    RandyO
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  10. #60
    Lifer
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Funny how if I, a conservative, called illegal immigrants sacks of shit for living off of us the liberals in here
    would be all over me. Not a peep from them about your statement though. "Hypocrites"' comes to mind.
    Isn't this the definition of playing the victim? You're hypothesizing everyone's opinion in order to call someone a hypocrite, and act slighted?

    Lemme test drive it: Adult illegal immigrants who receive money, goods, or services from our government and make no effort to improve their situation by legitimizing their status and getting a job are useless sacks of shit.

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  11. #61
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    Isn't this the definition of playing the victim? You're hypothesizing everyone's opinion in order to call someone a hypocrite, and act slighted?

    Lemme test drive it: Adult illegal immigrants who receive money, goods, or services from our government and make no effort to improve their situation by legitimizing their status and getting a job are useless sacks of shit.
    Guess what, legal able bodied citizens who do the same are useless sacks of shit as well

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    RandyO
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  12. #62
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    It most definitely is the students' fault. If you go 150k in debt getting your liberal arts degree from a name-brand school and you have that fancy diploma but no marketable skills you're getting what you deserve. And fuck your parents if they suggested it was a good idea.
    Liberal arts majors at top-notch liberal arts colleges have "early career" salaries starting at around $50,000. They also have higher success rates applying to graduate schools, and have substantial scholarship and in-house loan programs.

    It's the less-selective private colleges that start to look suspect, value-wise, as they cost just as much, have less financial aid available, and command lower salaries in the workplace. State universities look a lot better.

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  13. #63
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    Re: Hillary

    I guess I'm the only person in history that has known some vets that milk the system. Probably the same people who didn't go to college nor did they become trained in a skill because they were teenage fuckups. The military was their only option.


    Whose the first one that is going to man up and insist every one of our military are upstanding citizens and were before and after their service?

    OMG, YOU DONT SUPPORT THE TROOPS OMG YOU HATE AMERICA

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  14. #64
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Funny how if I, a conservative, called illegal immigrants sacks of shit for living off of us the liberals in here
    would be all over me. Not a peep from them about your statement though. "Hypocrites"' comes to mind.
    You think they should execute all immigrants, illegal or not? What?!

    Oh my god! I can't believe you said that!

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  15. #65
    Lifer
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Liberal arts majors at top-notch liberal arts colleges have "early career" salaries starting at around $50,000. They also have higher success rates applying to graduate schools, and have substantial scholarship and in-house loan programs.

    It's the less-selective private colleges that start to look suspect, value-wise, as they cost just as much, have less financial aid available, and command lower salaries in the workplace. State universities look a lot better.
    Those salary samples, especially for the less experienced, are pretty small based on a quick browse. And I'm not seeing any data on employment rates. Will the higher average starting pay justify a potentially higher cost of the fancy school? It could cost anywhere between 50-150k more than a state school. Even on low interest loans that could take a long time to break even on.

    I also wonder how many of those higher paying jobs via libarts school could be attributed to upper class family connections.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    Guess what, legal able bodied citizens who do the same are useless sacks of shit as well
    Agreed. So does this qualify as you "being all over me"? If so, you proved Rambo right

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  16. #66
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    Re: Hillary

    One of my favorite sayings is

    If you educate a fool, the result is an educated fool.

    Legal documents are complicated and lengthy to obfuscate the real purpose of enriching lawyers

    We are no longer a representative democracy, Sonse TV political adds started.

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  17. #67
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Liberal arts majors at top-notch liberal arts colleges have "early career" salaries starting at around $50,000. They also have higher success rates applying to graduate schools, and have substantial scholarship and in-house loan programs.

    It's the less-selective private colleges that start to look suspect, value-wise, as they cost just as much, have less financial aid available, and command lower salaries in the workplace. State universities look a lot better.
    Interesting. Even so, 4 years and a mountain of debt to pull in a whopping $25/hr (if you can find that dream job in art appreciation) doesn't seem very appealing. 100k debt @ 3% over 20 years puts the payment at $550/mo. For 20 years. Fuck that.

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  18. #68
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    I guess I'm the only person in history that has known some vets that milk the system. Probably the same people who didn't go to college nor did they become trained in a skill because they were teenage fuckups. The military was their only option.


    Whose the first one that is going to man up and insist every one of our military are upstanding citizens and were before and after their service?

    OMG, YOU DONT SUPPORT THE TROOPS OMG YOU HATE AMERICA
    Are you communist?? (Had to be done)

    I dated a girl in high school, her father was a retired military on disability. He seemed to do ok for himself. The girl told me once that they had their fourth kid because the benefits went up considerably with No. 4. He was also a minister, getting paid cash by the parish so it didn't inflict on his disability checks. They lived a pretty nice life style. It was really sickening.
    So, yes, I believe you that it happens. But it happens in all walks of life. From body building firemen on disability to unexplained on the job accidents disabling electricians. It's some humans' nature to screw other people.

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  19. #69
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Interesting. Even so, 4 years and a mountain of debt to pull in a whopping $25/hr (if you can find that dream job in art appreciation) doesn't seem very appealing. 100k debt @ 3% over 20 years puts the payment at $550/mo. For 20 years. Fuck that.
    Alternative to a kid who is in high school, has no real skills other than flipping burgers due to college grads taking all the unpaid internships and happens to be pretty decent at a language/art/music/history/pol-sci?

    $25/hr is way better than working at Wal Mart.

    Once again, it's the people doing the hiring that are to blame for this (along with the educational $$$$$$$$$ bubble). If "4 year degree" wasn't written as a min requirement for even the most entry level positions where there is a reliable path to a career, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your previous comment only works if we live in a world where everyone can be a scientist or engineer.


    While I'm in the boat of scientist/engineer/etc, I can't imagine what kind of world we would live in if that's all everyone was. Nevermind the girls....


    As my engineer friend said of the dating prospects while going to WPI, "The odds are bad and the women are worse."

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  20. #70
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Back to the topic at hand:


    I do not like the idea of another Clinton or Bush in office. If the GOP can give me a decent candidate, I'll vote for him/her.

    If they go down the road of Palin/Romney/etc(conservative in name only, big military, tax breaks to big corps, trickle down economics, forcing laws based on religion on everyone, no alternative to Obamacare, no plan for immigration reform other than BURN THE WITCH!) again, then it will once again be their own fault when the Dems put that Clinton in office.

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  21. #71
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    kinda like senators and representatives voting on an affordable health care act on our behalf


    wait a minute... exactly like that, would the voting public have done a worse job ?
    Yeah, kinda like that, and like senators and representatives voting on the F-35 program or funding programs to provide tornado relief in Greensburg, Kansas. In a representative democracy, we vote to put them in office so they can vote on those things for us.

    Civil rights laws would have never passed by popular vote in the early sixties. That would have been worse.

    Out-of-control increases in health care costs were a growing disaster for decades before Obamacare, and the voting public elected Obama to address the problem. Affordable health care was a big issue in the 2008 election, and addressing that problem was a major plank on his 2008 platform and it was in many of his campaign speeches. So I guess the voting public could have done worse.

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  22. #72
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    On the flip side, it is easy for a lobbyist to buy, I mean persuade, a single senator, but it is more difficult to convince 200,000 constituents. Not saying I have the answer, but the way it works right now is not for the people.

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  23. #73
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    Quote Originally Posted by oVTo View Post
    Yeah, kinda like that, and like senators and representatives voting on the F-35 program or funding programs to provide tornado relief in Greensburg, Kansas. In a representative democracy, we vote to put them in office so they can vote on those things for us.

    Civil rights laws would have never passed by popular vote in the early sixties. That would have been worse.

    Out-of-control increases in health care costs were a growing disaster for decades before Obamacare, and the voting public elected Obama to address the problem. Affordable health care was a big issue in the 2008 election, and addressing that problem was a major plank on his 2008 platform and it was in many of his campaign speeches. So I guess the voting public could have done worse.
    you really think health care is more affordable now, we have gone from unaffordable premiums to unafforadble deductibles and copays

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    RandyO
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  24. #74
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    ^^^Yep. What I pay for insurance now is crazy. I am paying the same monthly rates but my deductibles are through the roof. And don't think every dollar you pay out goes toward the deductible either, some of that is excluded. My son broke his finger. That is now considered the $2000 finger.

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  25. #75
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Hillary

    My insurance costs leveled off post ACA compared to the 5 years previous that they were climbing by 7-18% each year.

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