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View Poll Results: Guilty or Innocent?

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  • Guilty

    15 46.88%
  • Not guilty

    17 53.13%
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Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

  1. #876
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll


    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    I too could be insulted, but you clearly have me confused with your mother.

    Go sit down now and get quiet, little fella.
    It's easy to confuse you with a 70yo woman? Not shocked.

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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    It's easy to confuse you with a 70yo woman? Not shocked.
    The irony. You are so totally aligned with the Fake Indian. Kinda funny.

    Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll-screen-shot-2021-11-29-a

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  3. #878
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Self defense cases are always going to come down to whether or not it was actually self defense (justified). There are instances where you have guilty people claiming self defense when it wasn't in an attempt to get away with attacking someone. In other instances you have people who thought they needed to defend themselves but didn't. And finally you have cases where people where put in a position where they needed to defend themselves and did. In the end, at a very high level it really is that simple. Where things get complicated is when you start drilling down in the details of what actually happened to determine which of the above scenarios actually occurred.

    I have had several conversations with people about the Rittenhouse trial over the past few days and I'm amazed at how people are viewing it. Almost all of them didn't watch one minute of the trial and flat out told me "it didn't matter" that they did not watch the trial. They have this pre-existing notion that anyone who defends themselves with a gun is guilty and have no desire to explore the surrounding circumstances as explained above. It just proves my belief that guns have become so stigmatized for some that the circumstances under which they are used is seen as completely irrelevant. Several of them flat out admitted that it doesn't matter if it was justified and insisted you are wrong if you have or use a gun.

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  4. #879
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Self defense cases are always going to come down to whether or not it was actually self defense (justified). There are instances where you have guilty people claiming self defense when it wasn't in an attempt to get away with attacking someone. In other instances you have people who thought they needed to defend themselves but didn't. And finally you have cases where people where put in a position where they needed to defend themselves and did. In the end, at a very high level it really is that simple. Where things get complicated is when you start drilling down in the details of what actually happened to determine which of the above scenarios actually occurred.

    I have had several conversations with people about the Rittenhouse trial over the past few days and I'm amazed at how people are viewing it. Almost all of them didn't watch one minute of the trial and flat out told me "it didn't matter" that they did not watch the trial. They have this pre-existing notion that anyone who defends themselves with a gun is guilty and have no desire to explore the surrounding circumstances as explained above. It just proves my belief that guns have become so stigmatized for some that the circumstances under which they are used is seen as completely irrelevant. Several of them flat out admitted that it doesn't matter if it was justified and insisted you are wrong if you have or use a gun.
    Yea, I've had a lot of the same conversations. Most people don't know he had a gun pointed at him before he shot. Stupid kid for being there, definitely self defense.

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  5. #880
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmycapp View Post
    Yea, I've had a lot of the same conversations. Most people don't know he had a gun pointed at him before he shot. Stupid kid for being there, definitely self defense.

    Or that the Glock was the one carried illegally...

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  6. #881

    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Self defense cases are always going to come down to whether or not it was actually self defense (justified). There are instances where you have guilty people claiming self defense when it wasn't in an attempt to get away with attacking someone. In other instances you have people who thought they needed to defend themselves but didn't. And finally you have cases where people where put in a position where they needed to defend themselves and did. In the end, at a very high level it really is that simple. Where things get complicated is when you start drilling down in the details of what actually happened to determine which of the above scenarios actually occurred.

    I have had several conversations with people about the Rittenhouse trial over the past few days and I'm amazed at how people are viewing it. Almost all of them didn't watch one minute of the trial and flat out told me "it didn't matter" that they did not watch the trial. They have this pre-existing notion that anyone who defends themselves with a gun is guilty and have no desire to explore the surrounding circumstances as explained above. It just proves my belief that guns have become so stigmatized for some that the circumstances under which they are used is seen as completely irrelevant. Several of them flat out admitted that it doesn't matter if it was justified and insisted you are wrong if you have or use a gun.
    Part of the reason that self defense claims are stigmatized is unlike the Kyle case, there won't be a plane/drone/eye witness video footage to prove what happened.

    There will only be the winner to tell his story and nobody to represent the other side as to who pulled the gun first on who. Bystander eye witnesses in some cases but even those aren't exactly reliable.

    So the victors claims of self defense always have an "*" as it's clearly a biased opinion of what happened. IE 100% of people will claim they were defending themselves, regardless of whether they were the initial aggressor or not. Only time there is a clear distinction is usually being in your own home, but even then many get shot without having any intention of harm or even robbing. The amount of cases where family members going into their house or family house that get shot is quite high. Whether people have the right to fire first and ask questions later in their own home is a different discussion.

    Edit: Arbery case is a good example of false self defense claims being used

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    Last edited by Vovchandr; 11-30-21 at 11:03 AM.

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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Vovchandr View Post
    Part of the reason that self defense claims are stigmatized is unlike the Kyle case, there won't be a plane/drone/eye witness video footage to prove what happened.

    There will only be the winner to tell his story and nobody to represent the other side as to who pulled the gun first on who. Bystander eye witnesses in some cases but even those aren't exactly reliable.

    So the victors claims of self defense always have an "*" as it's clearly a biased opinion of what happened. IE 100% of people will claim they were defending themselves, regardless of whether they were the initial aggressor or not. Only time there is a clear distinction is usually being in your own home, but even then many get shot without having any intention of harm or even robbing. The amount of cases where family members going into their house or family house that get shot is quite high. Whether people have the right to fire first and ask questions later in their own home is a different discussion.

    Edit: Arbery case is a good example of false self defense claims being used
    That is what is so incredibly frustrating when talking about this case. There is an astounding amount of video from multiple different sources that back up the claims. The amount of people willfully ignoring that because "feelings" is staggering to me.

    I hope this kid cleans up on defamation suits and then "retires" to an island in southeast asia or something because he'll never have a normallife and will have a target on his back forever.

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  8. #883
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I hope this kid cleans up on defamation suits and then "retires" to an island in southeast asia or something because he'll never have a normallife and will have a target on his back forever.
    Kid wanted to be famous. Wish granted.

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  9. #884
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Vovchandr View Post
    Part of the reason that self defense claims are stigmatized is unlike the Kyle case, there won't be a plane/drone/eye witness video footage to prove what happened.

    There will only be the winner to tell his story and nobody to represent the other side as to who pulled the gun first on who. Bystander eye witnesses in some cases but even those aren't exactly reliable.

    So the victors claims of self defense always have an "*" as it's clearly a biased opinion of what happened. IE 100% of people will claim they were defending themselves, regardless of whether they were the initial aggressor or not. Only time there is a clear distinction is usually being in your own home, but even then many get shot without having any intention of harm or even robbing. The amount of cases where family members going into their house or family house that get shot is quite high. Whether people have the right to fire first and ask questions later in their own home is a different discussion.

    Edit: Arbery case is a good example of false self defense claims being used
    I agree 100%. Further adding to this is the fact that most of us live in a world where the need to defend ourselves is HIGHLY unlikely. Most violent crime is reciprocal meaning it's between criminals. If you're an average law abiding citizen and don't associate with criminals, the chances of you being in a situation where you need to defend yourself with lethal force are incredibly low. Even if you catch someone breaking into your house, the most likely scenario is they will flee once they realize you're aware of their presence. I think this reality makes it hard for most to fathom a situation where using lethal force in self defense is truly necessary. With that being the case, it's easy to see why people jump to conclusions.

    With all of that being said, although it is extremely rare, there are still times where lethal force is justified and this shouldn't be overlooked. This brings me back to my point about the conversations I had over Thanksgiving...Despite not watching one minute of the trial, I spoke with a number of people who insist he's guilty while knowing nothing about the events that transpired in the moments he pulled the trigger. I wasn't arguing one way or another, I was just asking them for the reasoning behind why they thought he was guilty. When I point blank asked about the facts surrounding the situation, the answer I got was basically "none of that matters". This seems to be an ongoing theme that stretches beyond the conversations I personally had as I have read multiple articles stating the same. To me ignoring the critical details which determine whether or not it's justified and saying that he is guilty regardless, is basically saying lethal force is never justified and therefore we do not have the right to defend ourselves.

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  10. #885

    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    I agree 100%. Further adding to this is the fact that most of us live in a world where the need to defend ourselves is HIGHLY unlikely. Most violent crime is reciprocal meaning it's between criminals. If you're an average law abiding citizen and don't associate with criminals, the chances of you being in a situation where you need to defend yourself with lethal force are incredibly low. Even if you catch someone breaking into your house, the most likely scenario is they will flee once they realize you're aware of their presence. I think this reality makes it hard for most to fathom a situation where using lethal force in self defense is truly necessary. With that being the case, it's easy to see why people jump to conclusions.

    With all of that being said, although it is extremely rare, there are still times where lethal force is justified and this shouldn't be overlooked. This brings me back to my point about the conversations I had over Thanksgiving...Despite not watching one minute of the trial, I spoke with a number of people who insist he's guilty while knowing nothing about the events that transpired in the moments he pulled the trigger. I wasn't arguing one way or another, I was just asking them for the reasoning behind why they thought he was guilty. When I point blank asked about the facts surrounding the situation, the answer I got was basically "none of that matters". This seems to be an ongoing theme that stretches beyond the conversations I personally had as I have read multiple articles stating the same. To me ignoring the critical details which determine whether or not it's justified and saying that he is guilty regardless, is basically saying lethal force is never justified and therefore we do not have the right to defend ourselves.
    I agree with you 100% also. Well said.

    Obviously there are outliers in the states and professions where personal risk is greater than miniscule, for most of us self defense will be a non issue throughout our entire lives. I'm not against CC or protecting yourself one bit, as I've said before I'm a gun owner and supporter but realistically most CC owners will carry a lot of dead weight for their entire life in the USA. Coming from other country the risk that most gun owners think they face in their suburbs is quite amusing. Ironically most risk will always come from another gun owner doing something stupid and not a criminal with a weapon. That's another argument. In some states like NY I believe even breaking into your own house you're supposed to retreat from it unless you're cornered then you can apply lethal force.

    I was quite a critic of peoples opinions on this whole trial mess, but even to me unless somebody shows me a clear video of Kyle raising his gun when he ran up to the Duramax and dropped the extinguisher I do think in a court of law with the evidence presented he's innocent and the trial was fair. (Caveats, I do think he raised it but there isn't good evidence or proof that he did, and I do still think he's a moron overall)

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  11. #886
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Self defense cases are always going to come down to whether or not it was actually self defense (justified). There are instances where you have guilty people claiming self defense when it wasn't in an attempt to get away with attacking someone. In other instances you have people who thought they needed to defend themselves but didn't. And finally you have cases where people where put in a position where they needed to defend themselves and did. In the end, at a very high level it really is that simple. Where things get complicated is when you start drilling down in the details of what actually happened to determine which of the above scenarios actually occurred.

    I have had several conversations with people about the Rittenhouse trial over the past few days and I'm amazed at how people are viewing it. Almost all of them didn't watch one minute of the trial and flat out told me "it didn't matter" that they did not watch the trial. They have this pre-existing notion that anyone who defends themselves with a gun is guilty and have no desire to explore the surrounding circumstances as explained above. It just proves my belief that guns have become so stigmatized for some that the circumstances under which they are used is seen as completely irrelevant. Several of them flat out admitted that it doesn't matter if it was justified and insisted you are wrong if you have or use a gun.
    Those same people believe in Russian collusion. Trump is racist. Trump is criminal. There is no sense in them. Fake News told them and they believed it and they are never going to admit being totally wrong.

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  12. #887
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Self defense cases are always going to come down to whether or not it was actually self defense (justified). There are instances where you have guilty people claiming self defense when it wasn't in an attempt to get away with attacking someone. In other instances you have people who thought they needed to defend themselves but didn't. And finally you have cases where people where put in a position where they needed to defend themselves and did. In the end, at a very high level it really is that simple. Where things get complicated is when you start drilling down in the details of what actually happened to determine which of the above scenarios actually occurred.

    I have had several conversations with people about the Rittenhouse trial over the past few days and I'm amazed at how people are viewing it. Almost all of them didn't watch one minute of the trial and flat out told me "it didn't matter" that they did not watch the trial. They have this pre-existing notion that anyone who defends themselves with a gun is guilty and have no desire to explore the surrounding circumstances as explained above. It just proves my belief that guns have become so stigmatized for some that the circumstances under which they are used is seen as completely irrelevant. Several of them flat out admitted that it doesn't matter if it was justified and insisted you are wrong if you have or use a gun.
    Now we have the Waukesha incident. Fake News cannot bring themselves to saying that a racist mowed down innocent people. His FB page is chuck full of anti white crap. But boy they couldn't wait to label Sandman and Kyle racists. I been complaining for years about Fake News. Long before Trump called them fake news. But we got the extremists in here who echo that BS all the time.

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  13. #888
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Vovchandr View Post
    Part of the reason that self defense claims are stigmatized is unlike the Kyle case, there won't be a plane/drone/eye witness video footage to prove what happened.

    There will only be the winner to tell his story and nobody to represent the other side as to who pulled the gun first on who. Bystander eye witnesses in some cases but even those aren't exactly reliable.

    So the victors claims of self defense always have an "*" as it's clearly a biased opinion of what happened. IE 100% of people will claim they were defending themselves, regardless of whether they were the initial aggressor or not. Only time there is a clear distinction is usually being in your own home, but even then many get shot without having any intention of harm or even robbing. The amount of cases where family members going into their house or family house that get shot is quite high. Whether people have the right to fire first and ask questions later in their own home is a different discussion.

    Edit: Arbery case is a good example of false self defense claims being used
    This.

    For this and other reasons, this is why I subscribe to two general philosophies below:

    First: If you wouldn't go there WITHOUT a gun, don't go there WITH a gun.

    And Second: https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comment...een_this_here/

    As a gun owner, you have to be cool-headed, more-so than the police ever have to be. And you do not ever run around pretending to be the police while carrying a gun because then, shit like this can happen. You do not start shit, act aggressively, flip the bird, roll your eyes, talk shit, or even raise your voice. To anyone. Ever.

    A combat instructor (who happened to be Buddhist and a Marine) once said to me:

    "From now on, when dealing with (ed.) crazy / possibly violent people, you will lose every argument. You are always wrong. You are sorry for impinging on their day. You will apologize and apologize again. You will back the fuck down. You will put your tail between your legs. You will let them talk shit about your lady friend. You will let them call your mother a bitch and a whore and your dad a bastard. You have no ego.

    "You do all this because if you are the one to start a fight, by default that fight now has a gun in it, and if you start losing, you're going to pull it and kill him.

    "And even if you don't go to jail because you could convince the jury that it was self-defense, you're going to have to live with the fact that you could have saved someone's life and yet you let your ego kill someone.


    "You are not the police, so don't act like them. Though all of you [civilians] are better shots than the police, you do not have the training, the continuum of force policy, or a union plus free lawyers protecting you if you screw up." ed:

    He also said: "but after backing down and trying to apologize, if at any time you then feel your life or that of a loved one is in danger, put three rounds into his [cardio-thoracic] vault, call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby. You did all you could for your attacker, and he was the one that made the final decision... to kill himself."
    It's a bit dramatic but gets a very solid and very important point across: You don't... start... shit. And you don't... friggin... escalate...

    And the part in bold sure seems particularly pertinent to this case, wouldn't you say? This is why, even though Rittenhouse was found to be legally not guilty of murder, because legally it was self defense, he let his ego kill two people.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; Yesterday at 09:56 AM.
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  14. #889
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    “Every bullet comes with a lawyer attached.”
    Anon.

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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Kyle Rittenhouse says he is destroying the AR-15 rifle he used in Kenosha and doesn't want anything to do with it
    https://www.insider.com/kyle-rittenh...enosha-2021-12

    Kyle Rittenhouse said he intends to destroy the AR-15 rifle he used in Kenosha.

    During an appearance on the conservative podcast "The Charlie Kirk Show," on November 30, Rittenhouse, 18, said that the firearm is "being destroyed right now."

    "We don't want anything to do with that," Rittenhouse told podcast host Kirk. .......

    In the same podcast, Rittenhouse criticized Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger for placing his finger on the trigger during a courtroom demonstration, saying it was not "Gun Safety 101."

    "He was pointing the gun at the gallery, and I looked at my attorney," Rittenhouse said, referring to one of the lawyers on his defense team, Corey Chirafisi. "I said, 'Corey, that's Gun Safety 101.' Loaded or unloaded, treat a gun like it's loaded."
    How surprised would we be if "mysteriously" this weapon showed up for auction somewhere in the next 6 months??

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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by FriskyDingo View Post

    How surprised would we be if "mysteriously" this weapon showed up for auction somewhere in the next 6 months??
    That's a pretty good idea, actually. I wonder what he's gonna do with all the firearms that have been gifted to him as well?

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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    This.

    For this and other reasons, this is why I subscribe to two general philosophies below:

    First: If you wouldn't go there WITHOUT a gun, don't go there WITH a gun.

    And Second: https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comment...een_this_here/



    It's a bit dramatic but gets a very solid and very important point across: You don't... start... shit. And you don't... friggin... escalate...

    And the part in bold sure seems particularly pertinent to this case, wouldn't you say? This is why, even though Rittenhouse was found to be legally not guilty of murder, because legally it was self defense, he let his ego kill two people.
    They got themselves killed. Leftists never let responsibility matter. Everyone is a victim. Obviously you are another Fake News follower who didn't watch the trial and don't come armed with facts but opinions from Don Lemon, The View, Cuomo, the regular race hustlers, just to name a few.

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  18. #893
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    This.

    For this and other reasons, this is why I subscribe to two general philosophies below:

    First: If you wouldn't go there WITHOUT a gun, don't go there WITH a gun.

    And Second: https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comment...een_this_here/



    It's a bit dramatic but gets a very solid and very important point across: You don't... start... shit. And you don't... friggin... escalate...

    And the part in bold sure seems particularly pertinent to this case, wouldn't you say? This is why, even though Rittenhouse was found to be legally not guilty of murder, because legally it was self defense, he let his ego kill two people.
    I agree with all of this 100% and as a gun owner have always lived by this philosophy. What you're missing is that it can be applied to the other side. If you don't want to get shot, don't go creating circumstances which encourage people to show up with guns to defend property (rioting). Furthermore...If you don't want to get shot, don't attack the guy holding a gun in a manner which gives him no choice but to shoot you. The fact is, while I don't have much respect for people who's choice to possess a gun is driven by their ego, I have even less respect for the rioters.

    While the actions on both sides in the Rittenhouse case were clearly stupid, I hesitate to say someone shouldn't have the right to protect their property from rioters. The counter argument to this point would be that Rittenhouse wasn't the property owner, but the property owner can't do it alone and is going to ask for help which theoretically Rittenhouse was there to provide. Based on his actions when the shit went down (starting when Rosenbaum approached him) it's clear Rittenhouse never had any real intentions of shooting anyone (you have to watch the trial to get this part).

    Some would argue the rioters were justified in their actions because they were making a statement, but I think most of us know that destroying property that's not yours is taking it way too far.

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  19. #894
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Some would argue the rioters were justified in their actions because they were making a statement, but I think most of us know that destroying property that's not yours is taking it way too far.
    Rioters were unjustified. Protesters were most definitely within their rights. I wonder why nobody has mentioned the doctor who signed off on Rosenbaum getting out of the mental institution that morning....?????? What is his responsibility....???

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  20. #895
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    What you're missing is that it can be applied to the other side. If you don't want to get shot, don't go creating circumstances which encourage people to show up with guns to defend property (rioting).
    Yeah, I agree that this mindset is wise for just about anyone regardless of whether or not you carry, but it was written with that specific target audience in mind... It was also written YEARS ago, well before Kenosha, in a completely different context.

    Also... you, I, and everyone else in this world has little to no control over other peoples actions. We can only control our own.

    I posted that with the intention of it being a statement that was completely independent from Kenosha, Kyle or the protests and riots... even though it's still pretty relevant.

    Just... Be smart, peeples.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; Yesterday at 04:36 PM.
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    Yeah, I agree that this mindset is wise for just about anyone regardless of whether or not you carry, but it was written with that specific target audience in mind... It was also written YEARS ago, well before Kenosha, in a completely different context.

    Also... you, I, and everyone else in this world has little to no control over other peoples actions. We can only control our own.

    I posted that with the intention of it being a statement that was completely independent from Kenosha, Kyle or the protests and riots...

    Just... Be smart, peeples.
    On that note, it was a good post and nicely sums up the reality of carrying a gun.

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  22. #897
    Lifer obsolete's Avatar
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    The irony. You are so totally aligned with the Fake Indian. Kinda funny.

    Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll-screen-shot-2021-11-29-a
    Another fun Thanksgiving being ignored by your family?

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    -Alex
    I can resist everything but Pete's mom.

  23. #898
    Lifer zxme's Avatar
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    That's a pretty good idea, actually. I wonder what he's gonna do with all the firearms that have been gifted to him as well?
    This is from shooters outpost in Hooksett New Hampshire a shop I frequent and know the owner

    Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll-f99fadb6-c6d0-4c6b-801c-932a8abd59e7

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  24. #899
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    If he’s like any veterans I know, this generosity will not be rewarded.

    An Army buddy’s dad was a WWII and Korean War Infantry Company Commander - and a major gun collector.

    He said when he got back from Korea, he wanted to commission a granite stand for an M1 Garand rifle: a rifle that had saved his life literally hundreds of times.

    And the inscription on the monument?

    Rust, you Bastard, rust.

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    “When it comes to the kitchen, I have a narrow band of competency.”
    Master Mechanic Roger Barr in “Chasing Classic Cars.”

  25. #900
    Lifer jimmycapp's Avatar
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    Re: Kyle Rittenhouse . Guilty or Innocent? Poll

    That’s pretty great.

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