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Las Vegas

  1. #226
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas


    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I'd love to hear your plan for fixing all the crazy, and with that, your opinion on whether crazy people should be allowed to arm themselves to the teeth.
    I'd love to hear your plan. I don't think additional gun regulations are the answer, maybe you do.

    Crazy people should not have firearms. Period. That's a regulation on mental health, not guns.

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  2. #227
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I just had a lookie in my pocket constitution and didn’t see nothing in the ol’ 2A that says no gunz for crazies. “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!”


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  3. #228
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post

    But it's cool, everything is black and white. U r 4 us or aginst us, right?
    Whatever smartass shit you need say I guess, it's always helpful to the discussion...What reasonable measures will you bring to bear on otherwise law abiding citizens who are not bat shit crazy? Can't wait to hear them. I suspect we'll get more whining and tired ass sarcasm.

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  4. #229
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    I just had a lookie in my pocket constitution and didn’t see nothing in the ol’ 2A that says no gunz for crazies. “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!”


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    OK, toss that line of thought out with the rest of it. Guns are an easy target for simple minds. Mental Health is a daunting fucking problem, no wonder nobody wants to be serious about it.

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  5. #230
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    Sounds like abstinence only programs...
    At that age abstinence only is appropriate

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  6. #231
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    What edit?

    Those who want no restrictions or no additional restrictions on guns will point anywhere and everywhere except at the availability of guns to gun-splain gun deaths
    There would be less gun splaining in general if the media and politicians took the remotest bit of care to be accurate in what they do. It's pretty hard to have an honest conversation when people try to influence it with lies and bullshit (I'll admit that applies to both sides to some degree).

    I cringe every time I hear someone like Seth Moulton jump on the band wagon and claim that he was in the military and knows first hand that fully automatic assault rifles have no business being in civilian hands. He does this knowing full well that that 95% of what civilians actually own are in fact nothing like the fully automatic assault rifles he supposedly carried... He's preaching to the sheep and being disingenious in the process yet the guys like him wonder the guys like me adamantly oppose him


    You even see it in this thread. I've heard the 5.56 round referred to as high powered numerous times by people who know it's really not compared to what you could do with a .308 or higher round.

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  7. #232
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    I'd love to hear your plan. I don't think additional gun regulations are the answer, maybe you do.

    Crazy people should not have firearms. Period. That's a regulation on mental health, not guns.
    So you are NOT for background checks to see if said crazy mentally unstable people should have firearms?

    Just trying to make sure I know which line in the sand is being referred to.

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Derpity-derp. Great entertainment.

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  9. #234
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    I'd love to hear your plan. I don't think additional gun regulations are the answer, maybe you do.

    Crazy people should not have firearms. Period. That's a regulation on mental health, not guns.
    We agree so far.

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  10. #235
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    So you are NOT for background checks to see if said crazy mentally unstable people should have firearms?

    Just trying to make sure I know which line in the sand is being referred to.
    Crazy assholes are the problem, not guns. When it was box cutters and commercial aircraft we had knee jerk reactions, assigned blame to aircraft (security) and got a shitty system forced upon us every time we fly. Some people feel good about it, some are smart enough to know better. More gun regulation takes us down the same path.

    I don't want anyone's rights violated, but if I have to choose crazy people's medical privacy over my right to own guns you can guess which way I'd vote.

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  11. #236
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Crazy assholes are the problem, not guns. When it was box cutters and commercial aircraft we had knee jerk reactions, assigned blame to aircraft (security) and got a shitty system forced upon us every time we fly. Some people feel good about it, some are smart enough to know better. More gun regulation takes us down the same path.

    I don't want anyone's rights violated, but if I have to choose crazy people's medical privacy over my right to own guns you can guess which way I'd vote.
    Strictly as a matter of clarification, we also got better wheelhouse doors in aircraft.
    As far as I'm concerned, that is the biggest nugget of hijacking prevention.

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  12. #237
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Strictly as a matter of clarification, we also got better wheelhouse doors in aircraft.
    As far as I'm concerned, that is the biggest nugget of hijacking prevention.
    And in hindsight, long overdue. TSA rubbing my vag was more my point

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  13. #238
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Strictly as a matter of clarification, we also got better wheelhouse doors in aircraft.
    As far as I'm concerned, that is the biggest nugget of hijacking prevention.
    Not sure there's really enough data on that one though. It's not like aircraft were high jacked left and right prior to 9/11 in this country.

    I'm not saying there were not any high jackings prior by any stretch but after the 80s they weren't common place anymore. Claiming reinforced doors had any measurable effect is hard to prove given the rarity of the events in the first place. That improvement sure didn't hurt anything, but it's hard to say if it actually helped either.

    Some of the shit I used to fly commercially had nothing more than a curtain and we almost always left it open. I had zero concern about being highjacked.

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  14. #239
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Not sure there's really enough data on that one though. It's not like aircraft were high jacked left and right prior to 9/11 in this country.

    I'm not saying there were not any high jackings prior by any stretch but after the 80s they weren't common place anymore. Claiming reinforced doors had any measurable effect is hard to prove given the rarity of the events in the first place. That improvement sure didn't hurt anything, but it's hard to say if it actually helped either.
    Your schtick is getting pretty old at this point, dude.
    Doors were previously able to be penetrated and 3000+ Americans were killed as a result of some fucktards with box knives. Doors are now designed to withstand a grenade blast...which, in all likelihood would take down an aircraft by itself.

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  15. #240
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Your schtick is getting pretty old at this point, dude.
    Doors were previously able to be penetrated and 3000+ Americans were killed as a result of some fucktards with box knives. Doors are now designed to withstand a grenade blast...which, in all likelihood would take down an aircraft by itself.
    Seriously. Those 3,000 all happened in ONE event, 3 on one attack if you want to get super technical about it.

    How many were killed previously because of high jacked aircraft in the U.S.?

    It's great that they are now designed to withstand a grenade blast but there is simply not enough data points to back up that the change accomplished anything significant other than to make others feel better.

    Call it a shtick if you want, but that's the cold hard reality. Highjackings in the U.S. simply did not happen with any type of frequency since the late 70s and there might have been 1 in the 80s. It's simply not a common occurence in this country.

    Edit: I do agree that reinforcing doors in the only thing that actually has a chance to do anything positive that came about from the increased security measures after 9/11, but there is simply no way to say for sure that they have had any effect one way or another. That's not the same as what you seem to be implying I said.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 10-09-17 at 04:47 PM.
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  16. #241
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Seriously. Those 3,000 all happened in ONE event, 3 on one attack if you want to get super technical about it.

    How many were killed previously because of high jacked aircraft in the U.S.? It's great that they are now designed to withstand a grenade blast but there is simply not enough data points to back up that the change accomplished anything significant other than to make others feel better.

    Call it a shtick if you want, but that's the cold hard reality.
    Go ahead and try and penetrate an aircraft door next time you fly. You can be the next data point, ass.

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  17. #242
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Go ahead and try and penetrate an aircraft door next time you fly. You can be the next data point, ass.


    Sorry you apparently live in fear of highjackings.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 10-09-17 at 04:25 PM.
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post


    Sorry you apparently live in fear of highjackings.
    Sorry you apparently live in fear of.....everything?

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  19. #244
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post


    Sorry you apparently live in fear of highjackings.
    Nice try. I don’t have a problem with regulated safety features. You know, like robust doors and seat belts, and data recorders.
    I don’t live in fear. If I did, I’d be trying to carry a weapon everywhere I went.

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  20. #245
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Sorry you apparently live in fear of.....everything?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Nice try. I don’t have a problem with regulated safety features. You know, like robust doors and seat belts, and data recorders.
    I don’t live in fear. If I did, I’d be trying to carry a weapon everywhere I went.
    Nah. I don't carry everywhere I go or even every day. I just don't put as much faith in some of those "safety features" as some others do.

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  21. #246
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Reading reports of this guy being on anti-anxiety meds. That should be a red flag for a registered gun owner. Of course there needs to be legal recourse for the owner to retake possession of firearms if deemed mentally suitable.

    Here comes the SLIPPERY SLOPES! DEATH PANELS! FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS! responses.
    .
    to be fair this is a slippery slope. youre willing to put your constitutional rights in the hands of someone else (a Dr.) with an opinion? what about those that purchase guns BEFORE they have some sort of mental break? what if no one knew he had one?
    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    I often times think this conversation would be far more productive if the pro-crowd would just simply say "fuck off, I like guns and I'm willing to accept that innocent people will frequently be killed by them."
    thats not really fair. theres half a million legally registered fully automatic rifles in the US. none have been used in a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Other than your rights, what practical reason do you need a fully automatic weapon for, whether through a mod, or factory built?
    You cannot even shoot accurately while firing in full auto mode.
    accurate enough to kill 40+ people apparently. and from 1500 yards away. the real reason? fully auto guns are fucking cool. what am i gonna do with one? kill paper in the shape of people like its my fucking job

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Stop with the straw-man bullshit, it makes zero difference on whether or not someone know the difference between a clip and a magazine it terms of treating the problem for what it is; a public health issue. "OH HE CALLED A BULLET A SHELL DERRRRP DERP! HE CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION DERP!!!" Not only is that fucking dishonest, it illustrates that you have zero clue as to how someone, or realistically, an organization, would go about solving a public health crisis - and it is a fucking crisis.
    there is some legitimacy in his statement though. the anti-gun people start throwing out total scare tactics. "imagine if silencers were legal". "full auto guns need to be banned." "assault rifles! "

    Quote Originally Posted by scubasteveRR View Post
    My boss who lives in Tewksbury.. his wife knew the lady from Tewksbury who was killed.

    Also a guy I grew up with, his wife was there with about 7 other girls from my old town and they all saw people bleeding really bad and shot and a couple "what they assume" were dead people...

    So don't believe some bullshit like nobody from Las Vegas knew anyone who was killed so it must have been fake shit.
    thats MSM for you. gonna make it personal. gotta make it matter. make it hit close to home. "a NH gun dealer says he sold the shooter a gun in 2007, more on this story at 11"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Your schtick is getting pretty old at this point, dude.
    Doors were previously able to be penetrated and 3000+ Americans were killed as a result of some fucktards with box knives. Doors are now designed to withstand a grenade blast...which, in all likelihood would take down an aircraft by itself.
    he has a point though, it was one of a couple dozen hijackings since the 1920s. albeit a catastrophic one. it would be far more effective to train in flight personnel to handle hijackers then it is to have a bunch of mouth breathers making minimum wage fondle us.

    someone has already implied it, everyone wants something to prevent this type of thing. what though?
    there are 30k deaths in cars every year (similar to guns though that number is highly skewed). what if the govt decided that no passenger vehicle needs more than 200hp and wont go faster than 40? i feel like more people would fight back against that then do about giving up constitutional rights. i dont get it. there are so many other things in this country that kill innocent people but no one seems to care. but guns? holy shit! stop the guns! even though guns dont specifically kill people...people kill people and they will use any means necessary when motivated enough. Clayton questioned why the Vegas shooter didnt just use a plane...id have to speculate that if guns were banned or harder to get or whatever...he may have.

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  22. #247
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Also, one of the changes made after 9/11 was to arm pilots. Just saying....

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Also, one of the changes made after 9/11 was to arm pilots. Just saying....
    Dont they also have regular psych exams?

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  24. #249
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    ... I honestly find the notion that studying the violence itself, not the "tools" as you put it, to be intellectually dishonest. It just seems like you don't wan't to be caught in some "gotcha" moment where you've admitted that because we have guns, lots more people die in the US than other developed countries. By several orders of magnitude. There are numbers available for this. Contrast gun homicide rates per 100,000 with all homicide per 100,000. You don't have to be a scientist to see the correlation between the two. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... Might I humbly suggest that easier access to weapons that can result in murder more efficiently than the weapons available in other countries "might" be "a factor" that we should be looking at?
    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    ... So it is very easy to say that when people have easy access to "tools" which kill more effectively (perhaps disconnect the perpetrator from the act?) then they will commit more homicide.
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... Other countries with similar economic demographics have far lower murder/gun death rates than us. If we have a problem with "violence as a species" then what is the logical argument for the US making it demonstrably easier to act on that impulse with more lethal tools?
    These are some really good examples of WHY we don’t have any decent studies on the topic, and it's almost impossible to do them. The norm seems to be biased bullshit starting points that assume the conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Phil has replied with his usual anarchist schtick. He basically refuses to deviate from that on any topic.
    Except that I am not, and never have been, an anarchist. Nor have I ever advocated anarchism. What I advocate is a limited government that respects people’s individual rights, and abides by our Constitution and Bill of Rights. It says a lot about you and yours that this looks like anarchy to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I will, however, stand by my statements about people carrying out of fear.
    If you also believe that people wear helmets out of fear, wear seatbelts out of fear, wear hardhats and use fall protection gear on constructions sites out of fear, then sure, we carry guns out of fear. I prefer to think of it as safety precautions, but you know, potayto potahto.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Those who want no restrictions or no additional restrictions on guns will point anywhere and everywhere except at the availability of guns to gun-splain gun deaths
    And those who want restrictions on guns will (and do) point at the availability of guns, including guns that weren’t used and don’t get used very often in crimes, and avoid facing the responsibility of people -- regardless of reality, individual rights, ethics, or our Constitution. Yay for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    I just had a lookie in my pocket constitution and didn’t see nothing in the ol’ 2A that says no gunz for crazies. “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!”
    Well, heck, you got something right this time. Yes, people have all of their individual rights unless or until they (each, individually) lose some of them through full due process. So, no for persons convicted of crimes for which part of the sentence is the loss of firearms rights. So, no for persons duly adjudicated as incompetent to manage their own affairs. So, yes for everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Strictly as a matter of clarification, we also got better wheelhouse doors in aircraft.
    As far as I'm concerned, that is the biggest nugget of hijacking prevention.
    And if that was the main thing we had gotten, it would have been a fine nugget. But what we mainly got was massive rights violations, and hassle and harassment, and theft, and useless restrictions on ordinary objects, from the useless security theater of the fucking TSA.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 10-09-17 at 07:03 PM.
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  25. #250
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Dont they also have regular psych exams?

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    Not unless things changed since my last FAA medical, granted that was a long time ago.

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