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Las Vegas

  1. #276
    Lifer joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas


    These two summaries are really interesting, along with this one:

    Estimated number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia

    They allow you to put together little summaries like this one:



    So the interesting thing in comparing the US, Germany, and the UK is that Germany is a country with a high gun ownership rate but a very low gun homicide rate (so low that it's comparable to that of the UK, a country where most guns are banned).

    You might argue that Germany's gun ownership rate is low compared to the US (and it is), but that's because every country's gun ownership rate is much lower than the US. Our closest countries in gun ownership are Serbia and Yemen -- guns are left over from recent wars and other political instability. Even with this, these countries have roughly half the guns per capita that the US does. In gun ownership rates of developed countries, Germany is at the high end -- similar to Canada.

    If you divide the US per capita rates by the other country's rates, you get the following:



    So you can see that the US is a more violent country than either the UK or Germany -- if we take guns out of the equation and look at non-gun homicides, there are 1.6x the murders here vs Germany. The US gun homicide rate, however, is 51.4x the rate in Germany, which suggests to me that maybe we're doing something wrong.

    Anyway it's interesting to me that it's possible to have a high gun ownership rate with such a low gun homicide rate. Maybe we could get some ideas there...

    Las Vegas-microsoft-excel-gun-homicide-rates
    Las Vegas-microsoft-excel-gun-homicide-rates2

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    Last edited by joeswamp; 10-11-17 at 11:46 AM.
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  2. #277
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Guns dont kill people. People kill people. You dont have to know about guns to suggest sensible gun reform, you just need to know about people.

    Its simple. All guns can kill. End of story. Limiting this and banning that is as pointless as saying "ban all red cars because they get in more accidents".

    I hate the whole "pro gun/anti gun" line of thinking. I believe almost everyone is pro gun/pro sensible legislation. Until we understand that, we will have emotive argument on both sides getting nowhere.

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    I like your point of view, but don't we already have sensible gun laws? Serious question. And if the answer is no, or not enough, what type of additional legislation do we need?

    I'm off the opinion that we have enough gun laws already, they could probably be better enforced. I'm also not naÔve enough to think there is a silver bullet for mental health issues, or that it can ever be solved. But the ACTUAL PROBLEM HERE is indeed mental health, not guns. I think until everyone can understand and accept that, we go nowhere towards a solution(s).

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  3. #278
    is not wearing pants Point37's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    As I skim though all of these posts...The fact that people are so naive to believe that we can just pass a bunch of laws and our problems will be solved just floors me. I'm in no way saying we "should just deal with it". I just want to see proposals that will actually solve the problem. It would be nice to start with ideas generated by those who actually know something about guns.

    It's funny how we (pro gun crowd) are being called the morons by a bunch of people who believe that knee jerk reactions proposed by individuals who know almost nothing about the topic at hand will solve everything.
    ^^^this exactly...like i'm sure was already said in here...pretty sure murder is already illegal...personally i think we should try to fix eliminate soft targets somehow with armed guards or something, have national reciprocity so maybe criminals/shooters will think twice...on top of those i'd like to get rid of magazine limits (prebans are available so what is it doing), get rid of the assault weapons ban (this is a joke anyway), legalize suppressors (for hearing reasons and range abutters), have shot spotter technology required in cities with shootings over a certain number a year, but keep the same red tape in place to be able to buy machine guns...if you want a machine gun i have no problem with it but it shouldn't be the same process as buying any other semi auto firearm...

    ...i have no clue what to do about mental health cause if there is some sort of test created you bet a bunch of people will end up on the unfit list unjustly...too many variables

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  4. #279
    Lifer RyanNicholson's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    IMHO it literally comes down to all the 1000 factors everyone freaks out about, ultimately making it a cultural issue... which means its complicated as all hell if we want to fix it. Thus, nobody wants to talk about it. Do guns kill people? No. Do video games / movies create violence? No. People kill people, but we do live in a society where mental health is ignored, violence is romanticized in media/entertainment, with an extremely diverse population of polarized views, and tools to kill people are easily accessible. It's a perfect recipe for exactly what it currently is.

    Do I know the solution? No... but it's going to take a generation or two of change to solve.

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  5. #280
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    I like your point of view, but don't we already have sensible gun laws? Serious question. And if the answer is no, or not enough, what type of additional legislation do we need?

    I'm off the opinion that we have enough gun laws already, they could probably be better enforced. I'm also not naÔve enough to think there is a silver bullet for mental health issues, or that it can ever be solved. But the ACTUAL PROBLEM HERE is indeed mental health, not guns. I think until everyone can understand and accept that, we go nowhere towards a solution(s).
    I’m of the opinion that access also comes into play when you’re talking about how shit like this happens.
    Yeah, crazy people suck, but crazy people with access to weapons are a recipe for disaster. So while it may inconvenience your average consumer to not be able to convert or own a fully automatic weapon, or wait an extra day or three or however long until a cognitive background check is completed, I think it’s worth it for the greater good.
    For the rest of you reading, I apologize if you feel emotionally attacked by that.

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  6. #281
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    You don't need to convert anything. I posted this in the gun thread, but I'll put it here too. Bumpfire with a stick....and you actually don't even need that if you want. That's why all the politicians tripping over themselves on this is nothing more than political grandstanding to push their agenda.

    I'm sure some will sleep better at night if bumpstocls get banned, but it changes nothing in reality (except more useless words on paper)


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    Last edited by e30addict; 10-11-17 at 02:12 PM.
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  7. #282
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Let me review my post and see if I mentioned bump stocks... nope, you’re putting words in my mouth again, just as I suspected.

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  8. #283
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Ban sticks!

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  9. #284
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Let me review my post and see if I mentioned bump stocks... nope, you’re putting words in my mouth again, just as I suspected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    So while it may inconvenience your average consumer to not be able to convert or own a fully automatic weapon, .
    Well then my apologies. I guess I should have assumed you meant convert permanently to fire as an automatic vs convert it to mimic the same.... you know as the bump fire does or what the politicians are talking about when they say automatic

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    Last edited by e30addict; 10-11-17 at 03:18 PM.
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  10. #285
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I’m sorry, I think I’ve made all the logical arguments I can give you. None of it is what you want to hear, though, so now I’m just “the enemy”.

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  11. #286
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I’m sorry, I think I’ve made all the logical arguments I can give you. None of it is what you want to hear, though, so now I’m just “the enemy”.
    Ironic that a lot of us feel exactly the same way.....

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  12. #287
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Ban sticks!
    Well, the MA house just passed an amendment to do just that....

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  13. #288
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Well, the MA house just passed an amendment to do just that....
    In other unsurprising news, it's often dark at night.

    Silliness.

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  14. #289
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Iím of the opinion that access also comes into play when youíre talking about how shit like this happens.
    Yeah, crazy people suck, but crazy people with access to weapons are a recipe for disaster. So while it may inconvenience your average consumer to not be able to convert or own a fully automatic weapon, or wait an extra day or three or however long until a cognitive background check is completed, I think itís worth it for the greater good.
    For the rest of you reading, I apologize if you feel emotionally attacked by that.
    "... a cognitive background check ..." lol.

    PhilB

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  15. #290
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Sorry as I didn't read the whole thread. The following is just my personal view not directed as a response to any particular post.

    It's easy to find something "reasonable" on both sides of the gun control issue. Similarly, it's even easier to find more points to disagree with. The point is to try to find a middle ground to work with.

    I'm old enough to remember the backlash in the mid 80's as draft language of an early attempt at banning High Capacity and Automatic-fire weapons seemed to lump shotguns in the mix of banned guns (1 pull of the trigger = multiple projectiles out the pipe). Those crafting the bill seemed to have good intentions but didn't really understand the subject well enough to develop the plan. Still, the public pressure was there to do something and so changes were made and a bill moved on. From that time on a many gun owners seemed to take the stance that any regulation of gun ownership amounted to loss of all gun rights.

    I was stationed down south during that time. I recall gun shows becoming a "thing", each show larger than the previous one. Cash was all that was required for most purchases. I don't recall any references asked for. As the shows were close to the military base each show seemed to carry less guns for hunting & target guns and more military style guns aimed at "home defense". Why anyone needs anything other than a 12ga for home defense is beyond me. I guess people watched "Red Dawn" too many times or needed bling to spruce up the walls of the double wide trailer.

    Moving back up north I rejoined the gun club and did the usual deer / duck hunting. While at the club the NRA was now quite vocal in their push for members supporting any/all of there positions. I asked the NRA rep about the gun shows, why they didn't have a plan for universal background checks, or why anybody needs 10K rounds of ammo and an AR15 for home defense. He answered with a fear mongering BS line like "criminals don't registered guns" and then made a remark questioning my patriotism. It was obvious I joined the Army so I could land a job paying way less than the poverty level, working 6-7 days a week, and putting me years behind people my age in the work force just so I could live off the country's tit.

    Needless to say I told him to ease up on wrapping himself in the flag and not to bother me again until the NRA was serious about helping define a workable solution instead of just saying No. I don't blindly follow people or organizations whose best effort is saying "No one could have known" or "Nothing could have been done to prevent this", all the while holding their hand out for a donation. Just...like...a...politician.

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  16. #291
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Brilliant!!

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  17. #292
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Well, the MA house just passed an amendment to do just that....
    And it's badly worded, it'll get blown up in court in VERY short order I suspect. But that's the goal, use the current issue to slip something through that can be abused and hope you can keep it out of the courts or at least tie it up long enough to slip something else through... etc etc. No way the state that randomly decided to re-interpret exiting laws would use this opportunity in the worst way possible at all...

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  18. #293
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Oh look, another one.

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  19. #294
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Oh look, another one.
    Well theres nothing you can do about them, is there? It is what it is. RIP.

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  20. #295
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Shall not be infringed.

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  21. #296
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    It's a mental health issue.

    Let's gut healthcare.

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  22. #297
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Its the, its okay if a white guy does it mantra. He can be outcast as the crazy lone wolf and the mental heath thing can get sprinkled all over it.

    But let a someone non white go one a murderous rampage, laws could change so fucking quick your head would spin.

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  23. #298
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by jhawley View Post
    Its the, its okay if a white guy does it mantra. He can be outcast as the crazy lone wolf and the mental heath thing can get sprinkled all over it.

    But let a someone non white go one a murderous rampage, laws could change so fucking quick your head would spin.

    When a guy drives a truck down a bike path there are talks of keeping an eye open for suspicious people renting trucks, spend millions installing concrete bollards every 6 feet and canceling a 20 year old program that helps immigrants get citizenship in to this country. When a lunatic kills a bunch of people with a gun, it’s either too soon to talk about it or don’t blame an object for the killings of innocents. Fucking ignorance and plain stupidity.
    *not my words, but I cannot disagree.
    edit: and then theres the racist overtones as well, of course.

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    Last edited by Chippertheripper; 11-06-17 at 09:58 AM.
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  24. #299
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Soooooo, no comments on the Antifa angle eh?

    I haven't seen any mention of what weapon the guy was stopped with either. My guess is that means it was the same type of killy "assault" rifle.

    Amazing, how yet again, everyone wants to gloss over how any gun control measure, present or wished for, would have prevented this.........

    As for trucks, we could simply ban automatic ones. No one can drive a standard for shit anymore. Problem solved!

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    Last edited by e30addict; 11-06-17 at 10:14 AM.
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  25. #300
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Soooooo, no comments on the Antifa angle eh?

    I haven't seen any mention of what weapon the guy was stopped with either. My guess is that means it was the same type of killy "assault" rifle.

    Amazing, how yet again, everyone wants to gloss over how any gun control measure, present or wished for, would have prevented this.........
    don't give guns to crazy people, duh. why is that so hard for you gun nuts to understand?
    re: antifa, if I had t venture a guess, judging by the small amount of stuff I've seen so far, this was an atheist thing, and not a political thing.
    also, before you spout off about the "good guy with a gun", peep this:Church shooter killed himself after vehicle chase, sheriff tells CBS | Reuters

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