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Las Vegas

  1. #26
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas


    The Rules of the Gun Control Debate - The Atlantic


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  2. #27
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Which laws would/will prevent this sort of thing? No shit, I'm ready.

    You want to try to put the genie back in this bottle? I for one don't think there's a snowballs chance in hell of that being possible.

    If the news reports are correct and he used off the shelf rifles with what basically boils down to a spring and piece of plastic then I think you're going to have a very, very hard time "banning" those.

    Ban rifles because they are painted black? That's just fucking childish.
    Ban larger magazine sizes? Maybe. Has a chance. But how many are already out there? Lots of evidence that for those who put their mind to it that won't help much.
    Ban semi auto rifles entirely? Again, how many are out there?
    Once again, "CAN'T FIX, DON'T TRY".

    Childish is the NRA with their refusal to support universal background checks.

    Childish are the people who buy a bump stock and blow off 30 rounds in a few seconds down the street from me at the range cause "Imma be rambo!".

    I never said anything about banning semi's.

    Never said anything about black guns.

    Never said anything about magazine sizes.

    Don't be the 2nd nuts that go right for the "jump off the bridge" argument. It's not all or nothing. We NEED to look for a path forward at REDUCING these instances.

    "well you can't ever stop them completely so DON'T EVEN BOTHER TRYING TO REDUCE THEM" is a bullshit argument, flawed, and you know it.



    This isn't some nanny state anti who cries in the corner at the sight of a firearm. I'd be willing to wager that I either own, or will own in a short time, more guns than 99% of the gun nuts on here. Last count was in the 76 range. And ammo count would put these mass shooters "stockpile" to shame.

    That doesn't mean I get to stand there, put my head in the sand, and say "NO, gun regulations are off the table! more sacred than lives. Sorry".

    I don't like the idea of more laws any more than you, but this shit needs to be addressed. Selfish to think otherwise. Your hobby is not more important than another citizens life.

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    Last edited by TheIglu; 10-06-17 at 10:04 AM.
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  3. #28
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    The idea that more laws would work is so incredibly idealistic and delusional.

    Some will point out the fact that despite the above, we still have gun violence. They will then say that this fact justifies more laws. To me it's pretty clear evidence that more laws won't work.
    We can agree that laws don’t solve everything. Speed limits regularly get broken, people still get raped, yadda yadda.
    Equally delusional, in my opinion, is doing nothing with the idea that the problem will fix itself.

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  4. #29
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Helmet laws don't stop all motorcycle deaths. Therefore, there should be no helmet laws.


    THAT is the level of logic here. Let that burn in for a while.

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  5. #30
    Lifer RyanNicholson's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I think The Onion summed it up nicely with a headline they've used multiple times... "No way to prevent this - Says only nation where this regularly happens"

    Personally I'm a huge fan of firearms and do believe there should be a right to own them. Unfortunately as a society we have a problem that includes that right as a facet that needs to be addressed, among others. It isn't all or nothing, but it does need to be discussed seriously and I hate that lobbyists will have more influence in the outcome than the sincere good of the people.

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    Last edited by RyanNicholson; 10-06-17 at 10:15 AM.

  6. #31
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    When people hijacked planes and flew them into buildings, they broke the law. Yet we came up with reinforced cockpit doors, better* airport security, and loads of other improvements & changes.

    * How much better is up for debate...

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  7. #32
    Lifer FirstDuc-1098's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Helmet laws don't stop all motorcycle deaths. Therefore, there should be no helmet laws.


    THAT is the level of logic here. Let that burn in for a while.
    Ok, so you agree there shouldn't be helmet laws

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  8. #33
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstDuc-1098 View Post
    Ok, so you agree there shouldn't be helmet laws
    I’m stepping casually out on a limb here, but I’m pretty confident his statement doesn’t say that.

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  9. #34
    Lifer FirstDuc-1098's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I’m stepping casually out on a limb here, but I’m pretty confident his statement doesn’t say that.
    damn, where is the sarcasm font.
    But i've been a helmet wearing (mostly, like 90% of the time) motorcyclist since 1981. And fully understand that it can save my life. But I in no way think there should be laws that I have to wear one.

    And I'm all for more training, background checks and tiered licensing for motorcyclists (and gun owners). But no banning of things that I as a responsible owner can own, the latest 3800cc nitrous infused supercharged Hayabusa or SOCOM scoped 40 rnd mag'd 50 cal plinker.

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    Shit Corey says:
    Quote Originally Posted by hondarider102 View Post
    I think that a smooth motor would help me be a bit smoother

  10. #35
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by butcher bergs View Post
    It's right there out in the open, folks. No conspiracy theory, no foil hats. Plain as day......or you can believe what the media is saying and react accordingly.
    While I think everything that you wrote is BS in this case, I do have a question why he meticulously planned this, was armed to the teeth, and then stopped shooting after 10 minutes, when it took swat 79 minutes to breach the room.
    Some say that the unarmed security guard disturbed him, but he had cameras, he had to know it was one guy not swat coming in. He couldve dealt with security, and gone back to shooting, but nope, just stopped. That is the only major question for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    My favorite was you going through T2 with your eyes closed.

  11. #36
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    Sorry I sound stupid to you but to be aware of these things you have to think about these things.
    Not saying its stupid, yes, being aware is important and not a bad thing. After the station fire incident, anytime I go to a club or bar I make sure to know where the emergency exits are. That is not a bad thing. People being so paranoid about this stuff happening, and drastically changing their life because of it, yes, that is stupid. I will absolutely go to more festivals in the future. Hell, if I was going to ACL before this, Id still be going after this. Thats the point I make about statistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    My favorite was you going through T2 with your eyes closed.

  12. #37
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Once again, "CAN'T FIX, DON'T TRY".
    So, slow down there cowboy. I think I may be on your side here. I'm interested in hearing what you and some others here actually think can be actually implemented to deter this sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Which laws would/will prevent this sort of thing? No shit, I'm ready.
    Like I said..

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    I never said anything about banning semi's.

    Never said anything about black guns.

    Never said anything about magazine sizes.
    Problem is you never said much of anything. Let's get down to the brass tacks here.
    I took some of the usual points thrown out on facebook, daily discussion, etc. I legitimately don't see how those can / would work in reality. This is the overwhelming problem I see with a lot of gun control proposals; they won't do much (or anything) in the long run. And laws that aren't effective are a waste of everyone's time.

    A pointless law is pointless. (Possibly worse than pointless.) No matter how much better it makes you feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    "well you can't ever stop them completely so DON'T EVEN BOTHER TRYING TO REDUCE THEM" is a bullshit argument, flawed, and you know it.
    This argument is not bullshit and it's not flawed. It's a real, legitimate concern.
    Yes, I feel completely fucking powerless to protect myself and family from these jackasses. It sucks.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    I don't like the idea of more laws any more than you, but this shit needs to be addressed. Selfish to think otherwise. Your hobby is not more important than another citizens life.
    Nobody here suggests that their hobby is "more important" than someones life. At least I sure as hell don't.
    I do think that pointless laws that make my life more complicated and potentially turn me into a felon without hurting anyone without actually don't ANYTHING to help the situation is also bad. So, you know, let's not do that.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Childish is the NRA with their refusal to support universal background checks.

    Childish are the people who buy a bump stock and blow off 30 rounds in a few seconds down the street from me at the range cause "Imma be rambo!".
    Hey, okay.. some ideas to discuss.


    I agree. Comprehensive background checks are reasonable. Let's do that.

    I agree. Bump stocks are contrary to the spirit of the National Firearms Act of 1934. So yeah, by all means, ban them. Except I don't see how you can effectively implement such a ban. These devices are just too simplistic. I don't see this doing a hell of a lot to deter these assholes.
    Also, can we please be very fucking clear on what a "bump stock" is? I envision this is hard to do. But as a private citizen it should be painfully obvious how to comply.

    I'm about ready to submit to limiting magazine sizes. This seems arbitrary and I struggle with how effective it would be. But this sucks..

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  13. #38
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Helmet laws don't stop all motorcycle deaths. Therefore, there should be no helmet laws.


    THAT is the level of logic here. Let that burn in for a while.
    Don't go misrepresenting the argument. The argument is:

    Me not wearing a helmet doesn't do a damned thing to hurt you. Therefore you should not require that I wear a helmet.

    I'm an adult, responsible for my own decisions. As are you.



    This argument is different. This argument is that item X serves no other purpose than to hurt lots and lots of other people very quickly, therefore I should not be allowed to posses item X.

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  14. #39
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittenger5 View Post
    While I think everything that you wrote is BS in this case, I do have a question why he meticulously planned this, was armed to the teeth, and then stopped shooting after 10 minutes, when it took swat 79 minutes to breach the room.
    Some say that the unarmed security guard disturbed him, but he had cameras, he had to know it was one guy not swat coming in. He couldve dealt with security, and gone back to shooting, but nope, just stopped. That is the only major question for me.
    According to the wikipedia description, the attack lasted from 10:05 to 10:15, at which point a security guard was outside his room. He then shot 200 rounds through the door (injuring the guard), but at 10:17 officers were already in the hallway. At that point the gunfire ended.

    Even though they waited until 11:20 to blow the door open, it's possible he shot himself at 10:17.

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  15. #40
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    According to the wikipedia description, the attack lasted from 10:05 to 10:15, at which point a security guard was outside his room. He then shot 200 rounds through the door (injuring the guard), but at 10:17 officers were already in the hallway. At that point the gunfire ended.

    Even though they waited until 11:20 to blow the door open, it's possible he shot himself at 10:17.
    I hadnt heard the officers in the hallway part. That could explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    My favorite was you going through T2 with your eyes closed.

  16. #41
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    The Rules of the Gun Control Debate - The Atlantic


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    This is worth reposting and worth a read. Even if you don’t agree with the conclusion, the analysis of the way we approach gun control as a nation is certainly accurate.


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  17. #42
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Go laugh at the family of the woman from Tewksbury that was killed. Go convince them. Record it too, I'd love to see it.
    It's statements like this that are the problem. They lead to misdirected knee jerk reactions. Emotionally driven solutions are never a good way to solve things. Do you always make important decisions when you are in your most emotional state? How has that worked out for you in the past? It's this mentality that's driving the ignorance on the gun control side of the argument. It's similar to the idea of paying ransom and negotiating with terrorists because the families of slain victims say we should.

    Everyone keeps talking about the obstructive position on the right. I agree that the pro-gun camp is being obstructive but it's a drop in the bucket when you look at the ignorance and lack of knowledge on the left. Both sides are the problem, but the argument can be summed up as a bunch of people who know nothing about guns telling those who have such knowledge what to do. Considering the circumstances, the fact that the right has gotten so stubborn should be no surprise.

    I'm willing to bet if the left wasn't so ignorant the right would be much more willing to compromise.

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  18. #43
    Lifer
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I think these kind of events are a very indirect result of a society which increasingly leaves people feeling not in control of their life. Unfortunately, that's a very difficult discussion to have. especially at the national level. And it's a collection of worn out or deeply divided issues. I think that goes beyond the common hot topics right now. It might not even be relevant to this specific shooter. I see worrying about guns without trying to focus on the motivations is like worrying about drug dealers or needles in a drug 'war'.
    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Not really. The guns are almost irrelevant despite what the politicians are bleating about right now.

    This kind of evil is some serious McVeigh level shit. When you consider the details that are starting to emerge regarding the planning it should be pretty obvious this dude was gonna fuck people up regardless.

    Not much mention of the explosives he had either. I keep hearing about plastic stocks with springs and how if we had stronger laws they would have stopped a guy like that

    All that said, it's pretty sad the victims are so quickly swept under the rug and relegated to pawns in a political game. Pretty fucking sad.
    I don't really see how this disagrees with what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pittenger5 View Post
    I do love hearing all the politicians and celebrities who live under armed guard telling us how bad guns are. If they're so bad, maybe give up your armed security then?
    Chicken before the egg.

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    Last edited by aldend123; 10-06-17 at 11:37 AM.
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  19. #44
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    It's statements like this that are the problem.
    That statement had nothing to do with gun control, it was to the tinfoily hat conspiracy theories saying this was something other than a wackjob killing a bunch of concert goers. Just like the 9/11 was an inside job people.

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  20. #45
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    As I've been posting I've also been trying to dig up an article I read not too long ago but I can't find it. We are constantly hearing the statement that the US has more gun violence than any other nation and that we also have more guns. Correlation doesn't equal causation. It's far more complicated than that. The article I'm looking for did a nice job of explaining other factors that are just as, if not more likely to be contributing to America's gun problem.

    It was written by an anthropologist who pointed out some other ways the US was very different from other "developed" nations. He talked about how American society is a diverse mix of sub-cultures that also encourages an entitlement to freedom. These two factors are arguably more prominent in the US than in any other place in the world. As an anthropologist he also talks about how they create fertile ground for conflict.

    Even if confiscation were an option, the violence would continue and only the tools would change.

    In regards to the article "The Rules of the Gun Control Debate". Most of the points in that article are extremely debatable. It's another example of leaving out the other side of the argument. Of course, it's an opinion piece. He had to keep it short and he was trying to make a point. My point is, almost everything he says could easily be soundly countered and this needs to be considered when reading things like this. The problem is not enough people understand that and there's not enough explaining the other side being published.

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    Last edited by BSR6; 10-06-17 at 11:57 AM.

  21. #46
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    That statement had nothing to do with gun control, it was to the tinfoily hat conspiracy theories saying this was something other than a wackjob killing a bunch of concert goers. Just like the 9/11 was an inside job people.
    Not necessarily implying that was your stance...Just using it as an example of how many people feel. There are many who are taking the position I describe in the headlines these days.

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  22. #47
    Changes come butcher bergs's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    The problem with “out there” theories like what you have posted is that if anyone refutes them with any perceivable credible source the first thing to come back is usually sheeple, followed by “you just believe what the msm is saying.”

    This is in no way a statement about my opinion of your actual theory.




    Ps: I think your theory is ridiculous. Juvenile, even. You’ve either seen die hard too many times, or play too many video games. I still love you though.
    I hardly play video games and am mostly a documentary junkie in the rare instances where I have time to watch TV.

    I went out searching for my own answers and discovered a lot of unanswered questions. Just threw some words on the forum to keep the conversation provocative.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Go laugh at the family of the woman from Tewksbury that was killed. Go convince them. Record it too, I'd love to see it.
    Last I checked I wasn't laughing at all about any of this.

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  23. #48
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Hey, okay.. some ideas to discuss.


    I agree. Comprehensive background checks are reasonable. Let's do that.

    I agree. Bump stocks are contrary to the spirit of the National Firearms Act of 1934. So yeah, by all means, ban them. Except I don't see how you can effectively implement such a ban. These devices are just too simplistic. I don't see this doing a hell of a lot to deter these assholes.
    Also, can we please be very fucking clear on what a "bump stock" is? I envision this is hard to do. But as a private citizen it should be painfully obvious how to comply.

    I'm about ready to submit to limiting magazine sizes. This seems arbitrary and I struggle with how effective it would be. But this sucks..


    Reading reports of this guy being on anti-anxiety meds. That should be a red flag for a registered gun owner. Of course there needs to be legal recourse for the owner to retake possession of firearms if deemed mentally suitable.

    Here comes the SLIPPERY SLOPES! DEATH PANELS! FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS! responses.


    The bump stops used a technicality loophole in the law to turn a semi into a full auto. Of course here come the videos showing a pro shooter on a semi being faster than using a bumpstop. Yes, of course, but we aren't talking about professional shooters here. We're talking about making the barrier to acquire such a high powered weapon a bit harder. Cause a bit harder might be enough for some cases. And some is better than nothing.


    I'm torn on mag limit. It really doesn't matter in situations like this. 10 guns +? Mag size wouldn't matter. Overheating was the limiting factor here. Of course for one person, with one rifle, a drum style 200 round mag would matter....

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  24. #49
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    And for the die hard anti's, guy could of flown one of his two airplanes that he owned into the crowd, and killed more people faster. In fact, not sure why he didn't. Full fuel load, plus 150mph missile into the crowd....

    And to get a pilot's license, you need to go through a small (minimal) mental health check by an FAA approved doctor. So my comment about similar mental health checks for gun owners may not of helped here since he obviously was mentally fit enough for the FAA.

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    Last edited by TheIglu; 10-06-17 at 12:44 PM.
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  25. #50
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Reading reports of this guy being on anti-anxiety meds. That should be a red flag for a registered gun owner. Of course there needs to be legal recourse for the owner to retake possession of firearms if deemed mentally suitable.
    That was my Theory #1 of his motivation: a bad reaction to some modern psychiatric medication.

    Theory #2 is that he was a psychopath all along and was just really good at hiding it, kind of like that BTK guy. Maybe they'll find dozens of dead bodies in his basement. Note that his father was a diagnosed psychopath and this condition tends to run in families.

    Theory #3 is a brain tumor. That clock tower guy who shot up UT Austin in the 60's turned out to have a tumor that was putting pressure on his amygdala, a part of the brain that regulates fear and is often abnormal among psychopaths.

    Theory #4 (I just heard about this one yesterday) is a specific type of dementia that, instead of making people confused and forgetful, turns them into psychopaths. The shooter was at an age where he would be at maximum risk for this condition (if he were subject to it).

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