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Las Vegas

  1. #51
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas


    I often times think this conversation would be far more productive if the pro-crowd would just simply say "fuck off, I like guns and I'm willing to accept that innocent people will frequently be killed by them."

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  2. #52
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    I often times think this conversation would be far more productive if the pro-crowd would just simply say "fuck off, I like guns and I'm willing to accept that innocent people will frequently be killed by them."

    You just hit the nail on the head.

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  3. #53
    Lifer Tekime's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    It's a horrible tragedy. Gun control isn't going to fix people's obsession with violence; this is just another symptom of a sick, aggressive society if you ask me. Maybe he had mental health issues, but not issuey enough to prevent him from creating and executing a detailed plan: he was acutely aware of what he was doing.

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  4. #54
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by butcher bergs View Post
    I hardly play video games and am mostly a documentary junkie in the rare instances where I have time to watch TV.

    I went out searching for my own answers and discovered a lot of unanswered questions. Just threw some words on the forum to keep the conversation provocative.
    Mission accomplished.

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  5. #55
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I bet I could use some internet searches to find that Las Vegas doesn't even exist. Doesn't mean it's relevant to the topic at hand.

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  6. #56
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    I often times think this conversation would be far more productive if the pro-crowd would just simply say "fuck off, I like guns and I'm willing to accept that innocent people will frequently be killed by them."
    Or if the anti-gun crowd said "Oh wait...everything I propose will do nothing to fix the problem I'm aiming to solve and I actually don't know anything about guns".

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  7. #57
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    All the while, 58 pro-gun and anti-gun people got killed. So we either need to figure out a way to reduce these occurrences, or just freely admit that they will continue to happen and we're OK with that.

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  8. #58
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Or if the anti-gun crowd said "Oh wait...everything I propose will do nothing to fix the problem I'm aiming to solve and I actually don't know anything about guns".
    And I use gun violence as an excuse to disarm people because this isn't really about safety, it's about control.

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  9. #59
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Or if the anti-gun crowd said "Oh wait...everything I propose will do nothing to fix the problem I'm aiming to solve and I actually don't know anything about guns".
    Anti gun crowd? I think youre mistaken

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  10. #60
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    And I use gun violence as an excuse to disarm people because this isn't really about safety, it's about control.
    Other than your rights, what practical reason do you need a fully automatic weapon for, whether through a mod, or factory built?
    You cannot even shoot accurately while firing in full auto mode.

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  11. #61
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Other than your rights, what practical reason do you need a fully automatic weapon for, whether through a mod, or factory built?
    You cannot even shoot accurately while firing in full auto mode.
    I agree with this, FWIW..

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  12. #62
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I don't think anyone here is in favor of legalizing fully automatic weapons. I have yet to find anyone who wouldn't support making bump stocks illegal.

    Let me remind us all of a fact that some need to digest....None of the proposals that were brought to the table after each of the tragedies which has occurred in the past few years would have prevented those specific events. Think about that for a second.

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  13. #63
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Other than your rights, what practical reason do you need a fully automatic weapon for, whether through a mod, or factory built?
    You cannot even shoot accurately while firing in full auto mode.
    Why does there need to be a practical reason?

    Full auto is already highly regulated (and expensive). What possible law could stop something like this?

    15 y/o kids get a hold of guns and shoot each other in Boston all the time. MA has strong gun laws. They sure don't stop teenagers from getting them do they?

    Words on paper do not offer real security. How many more times does that have to be proven?
    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post

    Let me remind us all of a fact that some need to digest....None of the proposals that were brought to the table after each of the tragedies which has occurred in the past few years would have prevented those specific events. Think about that for a second.
    This. 100% this. Treating the symptoms and not the root problems. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with a shred of intelligence that more laws aren't going to do anything more than make people feel better.

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  14. #64
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Anti gun crowd? I think youre mistaken

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    So gun enthusiasts don't know anything about guns? There's one I haven't heard yet.

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  15. #65
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Why does there need to be a practical reason?

    Full auto is already highly regulated (and expensive). What possible law could stop something like this?

    15 y/o kids get a hold of guns and shoot each other in Boston all the time. MA has strong gun laws. They sure don't stop teenagers from getting them do they?

    Words on paper do not offer real security. How many more times does that have to be proven?


    This. 100% this. Treating the symptoms and not the root problems. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with a shred of intelligence that more laws aren't going to do anything more than make people feel better.
    Ok, and what is the root problem, and how do we treat it?

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  16. #66

    Re: Las Vegas

    I wanna ask this question though... Why does federal law have laxed restrictions on quantity during single purchases? some states limit to one item purchase per x amount of days. some states limit to only consecutive purchases within x amount of days, and some states like nevada you can go by 10 AR's in one sitting. I understand "cause 'merica" and shit but how many of the same long gun does someone realistically need/use? It just seems unnecessary and in excess. This shooter had like 47 guns in his possession. Is it generally because its harder to resell them than to buy em? I mean, I'm not going to buy and keep five r6's and 3 zx6r, 6 r1's?

    My general stance is I'm less worried about the guy with 100 collector guns but more so about the guy who chose to have only 3 because he knows how to use em.

    Per this website.... Nevada Gun Laws - Gun | Laws.com

    Many politicians believe that lax gun control policy in Nevada is utterly ridiculous due to the amount of tourism, and temptation Las Vegas offers. Apparently. the violent crime statistics back this sentiment up. Year by year, Nevada ranks as the most dangerous state (or at least in the top 3) in America. Regardless of the statistic used, whether it be violent crimes, murders by firearms, assault, etc., the crime numbers for Nevada are consistently among the highest in the nation.

    Nevada has more guns sold and registered than any other state in the U.S. Is this due to the constant flow of people entering Nevada? Las Vegas is the second largest tourist attraction in the U.S.; or is it because state laws rarely impose on gun dealers? A gun dealer in Nevada does not need to be licensed to distribute. Records or transactions for sales are not mandated by law.

    There is no limit on bulk purchases, amounts of ammunition, or magazine sizes. A gun dealer also does not have to comply with law enforcement; police inspections of Nevada gun shops are not allowed by state law. Many gun control activists believe the absence of regulations on dealers combined with the constant flow of tourism attribute to Nevada's bleak murder numbers. Since 2000, Nevada has had on average 27 gun related deaths per 100,000 people annually, by far the most in the US.

    Per this website... Bulk Gun Purchases | Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence

    Federal law does not limit the number of guns a person may buy in any given time period. However, federal law does require federal firearm licensees (“FFLs”) to report multiple sales of handguns to ATF and other specified law enforcement agencies.13 This reporting requirement was created to enable law enforcement to “monitor and deter illegal interstate commerce in pistols and revolvers by unlicensed persons,”14 though there is no federal requirement that law enforcement actually investigate illegal trafficking.

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  17. #67
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Ok, and what is the root problem, and how do we treat it?
    How much time do you have? We could focus on the catch and release and coddling of criminals. If you want to be MA specific how come Bartley Fox is seemingly never applied. The same guys get picked up over and over again and have no problem doing illegal things.

    We could talk about the socio-economic issues in the inner cities that lead to that lifestyle in the first place.

    We could talk about shitty general education levels that are part of that. We could talk about the dependency on SSI and entitlement programs and how it pays more to leach off society than it does to work.

    We could talk about how we sweep mental healtth under the rug in this country.

    We could talk about a lot of things. It's a complicated problem that has many sides. It's not not popular or easy to talk about any of it.

    It is easy to ban shit and take things away from people, but it solves nothing.

    You're smart enough to know all that, yet you still approach this emotionally?

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  18. #68
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    How much time do you have? We could focus on the catch and release and coddling of criminals. If you want to be MA specific how come Bartley Fox is seemingly never applied. The same guys get picked up over and over again and have no problem doing illegal things.

    We could talk about the socio-economic issues in the inner cities that lead to that lifestyle in the first place.

    We could talk about shitty general education levels that are part of that. We could talk about the dependency on SSI and entitlement programs and how it pays more to leach off society than it does to work.

    We could talk about how we sweep mental healtth under the rug in this country.

    We could talk about a lot of things. It's a complicated problem that has many sides. It's not not popular or easy to talk about any of it.

    It is easy to ban shit and take things away from people, but it solves nothing.

    You're smart enough to know all that, yet you still approach this emotionally?
    ONE of those things might apply to this rich white retired accountant/real estate investor.

    So, given the specific situation, let's continue down the root cause analysis. I'm curious.

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  19. #69
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    So gun enthusiasts don't know anything about guns? There's one I haven't heard yet.
    Huh? None of that makes sense. Im just wondering who is the supposed "anti gun" person here.

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  20. #70
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Why does there need to be a practical reason?

    Full auto is already highly regulated (and expensive). What possible law could stop something like this?

    15 y/o kids get a hold of guns and shoot each other in Boston all the time. MA has strong gun laws. They sure don't stop teenagers from getting them do they?

    Words on paper do not offer real security. How many more times does that have to be proven?


    This. 100% this. Treating the symptoms and not the root problems. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with a shred of intelligence that more laws aren't going to do anything more than make people feel better.

    So you’re in favor of strict psychological assessments and purchase delays for extensive background investigations or is that also infringing on your rights?
    And before you say it, I’m aware this psycho (by all accounts) had no criminal background. And he may have even passed a psychology battery, but these are the only things I’m currently aware of as non infringing deterrents/prevention.

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  21. #71
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    How much time do you have? We could focus on the catch and release and coddling of criminals. If you want to be MA specific how come Bartley Fox is seemingly never applied. The same guys get picked up over and over again and have no problem doing illegal things.

    We could talk about the socio-economic issues in the inner cities that lead to that lifestyle in the first place.

    We could talk about shitty general education levels that are part of that. We could talk about the dependency on SSI and entitlement programs and how it pays more to leach off society than it does to work.

    We could talk about how we sweep mental healtth under the rug in this country.

    We could talk about a lot of things. It's a complicated problem that has many sides. It's not not popular or easy to talk about any of it.

    It is easy to ban shit and take things away from people, but it solves nothing.

    You're smart enough to know all that, yet you still approach this emotionally?
    This dude isn’t your imaginary hood rat on welfare. He was a wealthy enough white dude to afford a cache.

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  22. #72
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    That was my Theory #1 of his motivation: a bad reaction to some modern psychiatric medication.
    I think it's a highly unlikely event that any prescription drug, especially an anti-anxiety drug, causes such profound disturbance that it would cause someone in his position to kill many random people. I won't rule it out, but it feels mostly based on irrational fears based partly on a misunderstanding of drugs. Maybe analogous to reefer madness.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    All the while, 58 pro-gun and anti-gun people got killed. So we either need to figure out a way to reduce these occurrences, or just freely admit that they will continue to happen and we're OK with that.
    'Ok with that' is a pretty loaded phrasing. I think for many, it's more like 'don't see realistic and tolerable ways to affect it'.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    ONE of those things might apply to this rich white retired accountant/real estate investor.

    So, given the specific situation, let's continue down the root cause analysis. I'm curious.
    He is along the lines of what I was trying to say earlier. It's a wider reaching set of problems, and some of them may not be directly related to this incident. Instead of hyper-analyzing one event, look at the collection of them and find the trends. And people who are directly affected by those examples he listed aren't necessarily the ones that become the danger.

    If we all lived in a village of 100 people, and one of us started trying to hurt people with a weapon, I don't think the first step is to care about the mechanism used. It's figuring out why they want to hurt people randomly when the rest of us don't. And it seems to happen every couple years with another person.

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    Last edited by aldend123; 10-06-17 at 01:55 PM.
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  23. #73
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Sidavong, I agree with the issue behind quantity of guns purchased. The idea of someone buying 10 assault rifles in one purchase is suspicious. Not so much because they may be a potential mass shooter like paddock (Although that is part of it), but because to me it's a red flag for unauthorized distribution. The issue of selling guns to illegal buyers is a big problem.

    Another part of the problem is the guns that are no longer wanted. Whether worn beyond optimal condition, or the owner has left it sitting in his closet untouched for years and just wants to get rid of it, it's the guns that fall under these circumstances which have little value to their owner and thus find their way into the wrong hands. The lack of value and desire to be rid of them leads them to be sold for pennies on the dollar or even simply given away to the wrong people. There has been a record number of guns sold in recent years. They are not going to disintegrate over time...But they will eventually become worthless to some owners. Where will they go then?

    I am personally in favor of requiring an FFL transfer for all firearm sales, including private ones. At least then there could be some kind of process in place to hinder this scenario.

    Of course none of this would address scenarios like what we saw in Vegas so I'm sure some will harp on me for that. The problem there is those scenarios involved planning and the circumstances were unique. Even if you come up with laws that will prevent them, the next one will be different and the laws will not apply.

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    Last edited by BSR6; 10-06-17 at 02:33 PM.

  24. #74
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Huh? None of that makes sense. Im just wondering who is the supposed "anti gun" person here.

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    In my quote I'm saying the anti-gun crowd needs to acknowledge that they (themselves as in the anti-gun crowd) don't know anything about guns and therefore their perspective is off base. If they did that then the debate would be far more productive.

    You responded by saying that my statement applies to the gun rights people. But the gun rights peeps DO know about guns because they are gun enthusiasts.

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  25. #75
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    In my quote I'm saying the anti-gun crowd needs to acknowledge that they (themselves as in the anti-gun crowd) don't know anything about guns and therefore their perspective is off base. If they did that then the debate would be far more productive.

    You responded by saying that my statement applies to the gun rights people. But the gun rights peeps DO know about guns because they are gun enthusiasts.
    You replied to my comment so i assumed you meant i was anti-gun. Im not.

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