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Las Vegas

  1. #76
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas


    Here's an interesting subject that never makes the headlines...

    Project Exile
    Project Exile is a federal program started in Richmond, Virginia in 1997. Project Exile shifted the prosecution of illegal technical gun possession offenses to federal court, where they carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in federal prison under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, rather than in state court. Note that federal law (18 U.S.C. sec. 922 & 924) provides for a penalty of ten years in federal prison for being a "prohibited person", i.e., a convicted felon in possession of a firearm, as well as for falsifying information in order to obtain one, or furnishing a gun to a convicted felon.
    The program has since been copied by several other cities, sometimes under other names. In Atlanta, for example, the program was known as FACE 5 (Firearms in Atlanta Can Equal 5 years in federal prison). While many have discontinued or modified their programs, Project Exile is still in effect in Rochester, NY.[1]


    So if you are prohibited from possessing a firearm due to previous convictions and get caught with one...You go to jail for 5 years. This is a pretty sensible solution. Where it gets really interesting is if you look into it's effectiveness and what those who deemed it ineffective said about it. Basically, it argues in favor of the point that more laws won't help.

    Here's what I find to be the most interesting part of the story behind Project Exile...

    The National Rifle Association (NRA) and the Brady Campaign were both early and vocal supporters of Project Exile,[4] The NRA lobbied the U.S. Congress to help secure $2.3 million for emulation of Exile in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and Camden County, New Jersey, where similar firearms-related violence has plagued the communities. The NRA has remained a strong supporter of the program as its focus is on severely punishing all gun crimes especially illegal possession rather than by making gun purchases more difficult.[4] NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre stated "By prosecuting them they prevent the drug dealer, the gang member and the felon from committing the next crime... Leave the good people alone and lock up the bad people and dramatically cut crime."[4]

    What I find particularly interesting about the NRA's support for the program is the fact that every gun control supporter I know insists the NRA "wants to do nothing" about gun violence.

    Now let me be clear...I HATE the NRA. They are too extreme for me. But, despite being on the etreme side of the debate they supported this. So even the NRA will support legislation that will work. In short...the statement that the gun rights advocates want to do nothing, is inaccurate. They just want to make sure whatever is done will actually work. Part of the reason why they appear to be so obstructive is because the gun control side is doing a horrible job of coming up with solutions that would actually be effective.

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  2. #77
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    In my quote I'm saying the anti-gun crowd needs to acknowledge that they (themselves as in the anti-gun crowd) don't know anything about guns and therefore their perspective is off base. If they did that then the debate would be far more productive.
    Stop with the straw-man bullshit, it makes zero difference on whether or not someone know the difference between a clip and a magazine it terms of treating the problem for what it is; a public health issue. "OH HE CALLED A BULLET A SHELL DERRRRP DERP! HE CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION DERP!!!" Not only is that fucking dishonest, it illustrates that you have zero clue as to how someone, or realistically, an organization, would go about solving a public health crisis - and it is a fucking crisis.

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  3. #78
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    The biggest opponent to gun control is the anti-gun crowd. By constantly yelling about banning all guns, and doing what australia did, they make the pro-gun crowd immediately turn defensive. I doubt there are many people in this country that would be opposed to some methods of gun control (closing loopholes etc), but by yelling out worst case scenarios, the pro-gun people think of the slippery slope that might happen if they give an inch. Thus, no gun control at all.

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    ONE of those things might apply to this rich white retired accountant/real estate investor.

    So, given the specific situation, let's continue down the root cause analysis. I'm curious.

    You assume one of those applies to this guy or something could have prevented him. I don't agree.

    If you look at the "gun violence epidemic" as a whole and not this one case, and what I listed arguably would do more than one more reg that no criminal even knows about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    So you’re in favor of strict psychological assessments and purchase delays for extensive background investigations or is that also infringing on your rights?
    And before you say it, I’m aware this psycho (by all accounts) had no criminal background. And he may have even passed a psychology battery, but these are the only things I’m currently aware of as non infringing deterrents/prevention.
    Putting words in my mouth like that is why no one engages in a "conversation" with the gun control Nazis.

    Acknowledging there are mental health issues that we could address as a when is not the same as advocating for any of these things. Different conversations that can should probably take place in parallel, not one size fits all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    This dude isn’t your imaginary hood rat on welfare. He was a wealthy enough white dude to afford a cache.
    And this dude is a psychopath. Your point? Welfare hood rats are certainly part of the problem in this country. That's undeniable.

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  5. #80
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Stop with the straw-man bullshit, it makes zero difference on whether or not someone know the difference between a clip and a magazine it terms of treating the problem for what it is; a public health issue. "OH HE CALLED A BULLET A SHELL DERRRRP DERP! HE CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION DERP!!!" Not only is that fucking dishonest, it illustrates that you have zero clue as to how someone, or realistically, an organization, would go about solving a public health crisis - and it is a fucking crisis.
    Heroin is a public health crisis and it does matter of people are screaming about something they know nothing about and there are already laws on the books that "should" have stopped it. Getting called a baby killer by ignorant emotional types gets old after a while.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 10-06-17 at 02:37 PM.
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  6. #81
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Heroin is a public health crisis and it does matter of people are screaming about something they know nothing about and there are already laws on the books that "should" have stopped it. Getting called a baby killer by ignorant emotional types gets old after a while.
    Come back when you have a basic understanding of what the field of public health actually does.


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  7. #82
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    This is long but interesting (IMO) read:

    302 Found

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  8. #83
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Stop with the straw-man bullshit, it makes zero difference on whether or not someone know the difference between a clip and a magazine it terms of treating the problem for what it is; a public health issue. "OH HE CALLED A BULLET A SHELL DERRRRP DERP! HE CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION DERP!!!" Not only is that fucking dishonest, it illustrates that you have zero clue as to how someone, or realistically, an organization, would go about solving a public health crisis - and it is a fucking crisis.
    Thank you because the quote above proves my point even further. Typical ignorant (refusal to understand what I'm saying) and emotional reaction which demonstrates exactly I'm talking about.

    There is nothing dishonest in pointing out the fact that someone's argument is based on false information and a blatant lack of knowledge of the topic at hand. The inaccuracies on the anti-gun side of the argument are a matter of fact not opinion. When you consider these inaccuracies are staples in their position, you can't help but to question that position.

    For example...There is this large sentiment about how much worse the shooting would have been if "silencers" were legal.

    Silencers don't make guns quiet...They bring them from incredibly loud to extremely loud. In Vegas, even with silencers, they still would have heard the gun fire because it still would have been plenty loud. The idea that silencers shouldn't be legal because it makes guns too quite and therefore more dangerous is based on blatant lack of knowledge. It's not a matter of opinion, it's matter of fact. This is not arguing semantics, it's called recognizing bullshit for what it is.

    Maybe in your world we should believe whatever people tell us. I live in the real world where some things are true and some aren't.

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  9. #84
    Lifer Imbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Fuck off. I like guns. More accurately, I like how my fellow citizens' affinity for legal guns makes the entire US an extremely difficult population to ever control by force, by any power, no matter what happens, now and in the future. Kinda like our tinfoil hatted founding fathers, in that regard, ya know?

    There's a dude over on BoRn right now who's been begging the local police department for TWO DAYS to respond to photo evidence on social media showing exactly where his recently stolen motorcycle is currently located in their town, with no luck. It still has his plate on it! I know, not exactly an active shooter situation, but a time sensitive situation where violence could conceivably occur, nonetheless. Two days. I personally live a decent distance from where the one or two cops in my town usually are at any given moment. So, yeah, I also like guns in case I ever need to defend myself against individuals, just in the rare and unusual case the cops can't get there within ten seconds or so...as far as the 2nd having the slightest thing to do with hunting and target shooting, yeah, fuck off again.

    I've already had to go thru training, and will always have to go thru periodic fingerprinting, outrageous licensing fees, face to face interviews, and background checks. I still had better not ever get (merely) accused of telling someone I'm gonna kick their ass, or forget any gun ownership going forward, at least not without a huge legal battle. I still cannot buy guns or accessories that most other US citizens can, and can be charged with AND CONVICTED OF a felony if I inadvertently leave one harmless spent casing under the seat of my car, or anywhere else under my control, never mind <GASP!> the ultra-illegal act of keeping a firearm where it'd be accessible enough in my childless home to actually do some good during a nighttime home invasion, should one occur. LOL and people want more hoops for me and other lawful gun owners to jump through. Yeah. That'll make you safe.

    The laws that exist aren't working, aren't being enforced (and shouldn't be), and are ignored by evil fucks by the hundreds of thousands...as they sure as hell will still be when you pass more of them. More gun laws won't do a damn thing, and even if they did, next it'd (continue to) be trucks or aircraft into crowds, explosives, fire, carbon monoxide, electricity, and infinitely more shit they haven't even thought up yet. Humans are fuckin brilliant, man. Even asshole humans.

    Y'all wanna butcher the Constitution (more) every time someone dies a wrongful death...guess what, shit happens and will continue to, no matter how vigorously mommy government wipes your forehead about it. Why? Because mentally ill people, people with very different ideals, enemies, and just plain assholes all exist, always have, and always will.

    Btw, you can have the silly slide stocks, and chalk up a YUGE anti victory. <whisper...they are for idiots...all they do is attract attention and waste ammo>

    Might've been worse if this latest asshole was the one bullet, one kill type, especially if he had educated himself on how easy it is to use an oil filter as a suppressor, got himself within range of subsonic ammo, and didn't set off the smoke alarm spraying buckets all the way to McCarran airport. You could do all that with a bolt action 22, arguably more effectively than this guy did. You gonna ban every gun down to bolt action 22s, seize every last one of the millions of them from the nation, and put every metalworking facility in the US under surveillance to prevent them from making more? LOL 17 year olds were secretly making guns in my high school metal shop class, in the 80s.

    You wanna give up some (one else's) freedoms to prevent wide scale killings at mass gatherings? The most effective way would be to prohibit mass gatherings...

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    Last edited by Imbeek; 10-06-17 at 03:04 PM.

  10. #85
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    aka, "cant fix it, don't try"

    Gotcha.

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  11. #86
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    You assume one of those applies to this guy or something could have prevented him. I don't agree.

    If you look at the "gun violence epidemic" as a whole and not this one case, and what I listed arguably would do more than one more reg that no criminal even knows about.


    Putting words in my mouth like that is why no one engages in a "conversation" with the gun control Nazis.

    Acknowledging there are mental health issues that we could address as a when is not the same as advocating for any of these things. Different conversations that can should probably take place in parallel, not one size fits all.



    And this dude is a psychopath. Your point? Welfare hood rats are certainly part of the problem in this country. That's undeniable.
    So now Iím a gun nazi?
    Ps: White men are part of the problem. Thatís undeniable, right?

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    Last edited by Chippertheripper; 10-06-17 at 03:05 PM.
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  12. #87
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    This is the new normal.

    5 days later and not even a mention of the Las Vegas shooting in the home page of my news feed.

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  13. #88
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    aka, "cant fix it, don't try"

    Gotcha.
    Hardly the case...See my post about Project Exile.

    *Edit: You were referring to a specific post. I incorrectly assumed you were referring to the pro-gun side of the argument in general.

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    Last edited by BSR6; 10-06-17 at 03:11 PM.

  14. #89
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    So now I’m a gun nazi?
    Ps: White men are part of the problem. That’s undeniable, right?
    I don't know are you? I did mean it in the general sense as to why people won't engage when you try to twist everything they say.


    P.S. Skin color isn't the problem.

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  15. #90
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Come back when you have a basic understanding of what the field of public health actually does.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Come back when you learn the difference between an actual epidemic and a manufactured one.

    And you claim it's northerners with the condescending attitudes

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  16. #91
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Thank you because the quote above proves my point even further. Typical ignorant (refusal to understand what I'm saying) and emotional reaction which demonstrates exactly I'm talking about.

    There is nothing dishonest in pointing out the fact that someone's argument is based on false information and a blatant lack of knowledge of the topic at hand. The inaccuracies on the anti-gun side of the argument are a matter of fact not opinion. When you consider these inaccuracies are staples in their position, you can't help but to question that position.

    [...]

    Maybe in your world we should believe whatever people tell us. I live in the real world where some things are true and some aren't.
    I certainly hope you haven't taken any of my arguments as a pro-gun control, make new laws stance. It seems that way, in which case it is you who lacks understanding. I'm 34 and have been a gun owner since I was 18, I've been hunting since I was a kid. I own multiple firearms both for hunting and personal protection. I am admittedly trolling the puffy chest super-pro-gun crowd...mostly because you fucking deserve it. Maybe later I'll fuck with the anti-gun folks, they have it coming too.

    The point is this is a public health problem. It needs to be studied by a big fucking team public health professionals. Some of those people would be experts in the gun field, some of them wouldn't know which end is the killey end but they're really fucking good at statistical analysis. My sister is one of the latter, PhD in Epidemiology. It's all good an well for you and I to have an opinion about what laws are good and/or effective, but it genuinely means jack shit. For all of yours or my supposed expertise - or lack thereof - on guns, it's at best a small piece of the puzzle. This field of study needs funding and genuine bipartisan support. Sometimes it's perfectly fine to say "I don't know the fucking answer" and leave it up to the experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbeek View Post
    Fuck off. I like guns.
    Good, I like guns too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    And you claim it's northerners with the condescending attitudes
    You're too doughy to be condescending.

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  17. #92
    Lifer tsorfas's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Stop with the straw-man bullshit, it makes zero difference on whether or not someone know the difference between a clip and a magazine it terms of treating the problem for what it is; a public health issue. "OH HE CALLED A BULLET A SHELL DERRRRP DERP! HE CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION DERP!!!" Not only is that fucking dishonest, it illustrates that you have zero clue as to how someone, or realistically, an organization, would go about solving a public health crisis - and it is a fucking crisis.
    Does cursing make you feel like you are winning an argument? Serious question.

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  18. #93
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    No, I just have a filthy fucking mouth.

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  19. #94
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I don't know are you? I did mean it in the general sense as to why people won't engage when you try to twist everything they say.


    P.S. Skin color isn't the problem.
    I qualified as a Marine rifle expert several times, pistol sharpshooter. I carried a mk19 further than I care to admit, tripod too. I’ve sent lots of lead down range since I was a little kid, literally thousands of rounds through a single shot, bolt action .22 my grandfather FOUND in the woods behind his house, the same grandfather that gave me a crossman pump B.B. gun for my first Xmas, at 6 months old.
    I’ve shot the saw, the golf, the m2 extensively.
    .410, 20g, 12g, 30-30, .308, blah blah blah.
    I think my firearms credentials are up to par.

    I have a small penis. I’m ok with it. I’m not a gun nut, and I generally don’t care if anybody is, so long as they’re A: not preachy like a vegan about it, B: not out to harm anyone, and C: man enough to admit they carry one because they’re scared.

    You still havent answered my original question as to why anyone has a practical reason to own a fully automatic weapon. That includes modifying your AR to do whatever, either legally or otherwise.
    nor have you said whether you’d be ok with further evaluation for many (any) weapons purchases.

    For the record, I think education, prevention, and control are the only ways to reduce gun violence. Nothing will solve it completely, as we all know.
    Tiered licensing is another good approach IMO, as is pre purchase evaluation and delay.

    Most Americans who own firearms aren’t doing so to prevent the govt from becoming too tyrannical, as the 2nd amendment spirit invokes. And think about this for a sec, if the govt DID need overthrowing, would you feel comfortable with the firearms nuts being at the helm of such a movement? Most of those fucking idiots can’t even find their ways out of their moms basement or out of their bunkers.

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  20. #95
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    I certainly hope you haven't taken any of my arguments as a pro-gun control, make new laws stance. It seems that way, in which case it is you who lacks understanding. I'm 34 and have been a gun owner since I was 18, I've been hunting since I was a kid. I own multiple firearms both for hunting and personal protection. I am admittedly trolling the puffy chest super-pro-gun crowd...mostly because you fucking deserve it. Maybe later I'll fuck with the anti-gun folks, they have it coming too.

    The point is this is a public health problem. It needs to be studied by a big fucking team public health professionals. Some of those people would be experts in the gun field, some of them wouldn't know which end is the killey end but they're really fucking good at statistical analysis. My sister is one of the latter, PhD in Epidemiology. It's all good an well for you and I to have an opinion about what laws are good and/or effective, but it genuinely means jack shit. For all of yours or my supposed expertise - or lack thereof - on guns, it's at best a small piece of the puzzle. This field of study needs funding and genuine bipartisan support. Sometimes it's perfectly fine to say "I don't know the fucking answer" and leave it up to the experts.
    I was more honing in on your comment about dishonesty and me supposedly not allowing people to have an opinion. It's dangerous to weigh false perspectives as if they were factual and that's really what I was getting at. I was also focusing on the gun specific side of the debate.

    I agree about the mental health part but my struggle with the issue is that it's tremendously complex and I'm not sure what can really be done. Food for thought though...Check out my earlier post regarding the article written by the anthropologist. There may be some cultural elements fueling the mental health issue.

    AEG's article was pretty insightful.

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  21. #96
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I qualified as a Marine rifle expert several times, pistol sharpshooter. I carried a mk19 further than I care to admit, tripod too. I’ve sent lots of lead down range since I was a little kid, literally thousands of rounds through a single shot, bolt action .22 my grandfather FOUND in the woods behind his house, the same grandfather that gave me a crossman pump B.B. gun for my first Xmas, at 6 months old.
    I’ve shot the saw, the golf, the m2 extensively.
    .410, 20g, 12g, 30-30, .308, blah blah blah.
    I think my firearms credentials are up to par.

    I have a small penis. I’m ok with it. I’m not a gun nut, and I generally don’t care if anybody is, so long as they’re A: not preachy like a vegan about it, B: not out to harm anyone, and C: man enough to admit they carry one because they’re scared.

    You still havent answered my original question as to why anyone has a practical reason to own a fully automatic weapon. That includes modifying your AR to do whatever, either legally or otherwise.
    nor have you said whether you’d be ok with further evaluation for many (any) weapons purchases.

    For the record, I think education, prevention, and control are the only ways to reduce gun violence. Nothing will solve it completely, as we all know.
    Tiered licensing is another good approach IMO, as is pre purchase evaluation and delay.

    Most Americans who own firearms aren’t doing so to prevent the govt from becoming too tyrannical, as the 2nd amendment spirit invokes. And think about this for a sec, if the govt DID need overthrowing, would you feel comfortable with the firearms nuts being at the helm of such a movement? Most of those fucking idiots can’t even find their ways out of their moms basement or out of their bunkers.
    I did. I said it doesn't matter if there is a practical reason or not.

    I've also said numerous times in multiple threads I'm not in favor of any more laws until we bother to enforce the ones already on the books.

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  22. #97
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I did. I said it doesn't matter if there is a practical reason or not.

    I've also said numerous times in multiple threads I'm not in favor of any more laws until we bother to enforce the ones already on the books.
    Because I can doesn’t count. It really doesn’t.

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  23. #98
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Stop with the straw-man bullshit, it makes zero difference on whether or not someone know the difference between a clip and a magazine it terms of treating the problem for what it is; a public health issue.
    Man's got a point. I encounter people all the time that think that automatic weapons are available at walmart. Also that "AR-15" stands for "assault rifle model 15".

    Kind of silly.

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  24. #99
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    Re: Las Vegas

    What irritates me is the sudden focus on bump stocks when it isn't particularly difficult (or a new idea) to bump fire a rifle without one. Same effect, and no molded plastic with a spring required. All you have to do is hold it in a particular manner.

    It could be the engineer in me talking but a bump stock would be trivial to 3D print meaning anyone who wants one could readily make one if so inclined. All a ban would do is keep them out of the hands of the people who are the least likely to be a problem.

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  25. #100
    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Interesting discussion. I'll add this, I don't carry because I am scared, I carry because I like to be prepared. Like wearing a helmet, or keeping my pocket knife in my pocket, or take my work gloves everywhere with me at work.

    I carry my migraine medication everywhere because I am scared. I'd rather be shot at than find myself stranded somewhere with one of my debilitating migraines.

    I'm not with either side on this. If something can be done about these shootings that would be effective without trampling rights, I'd be all for it.

    Also add me to the ones saying that the bump stocks are a bogeyman. The NRA will likely support banning it, as they know it gives them good optics and gets rid of a novelty product.

    0 Not allowed!
    Last edited by TwelveGaugeSage; 10-06-17 at 05:17 PM.

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