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Las Vegas

  1. #151
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas


    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    Far more gun owners are hurt by their own firearms than those that ever successfully use one in self defense. ...
    That's actually factually not even close to true.

    PhilB

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  2. #152
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Also, I don't think those that carry do so for romantic reasons. Those types are certainly out there, but I bet the vast majority of us hope it never leaves the holster outside of the range.
    If you didn't think there was cause to use it you wouldn't carry it.
    That's a complete miss. Hoping it never leaves the holster outside the range does not at all mean not thinking there is ever any cause to use it. I wear my helmet every time I ride. I hope I never need to use it, but I have done so, and might again. I see carrying a gun in very much the same light as wearing my helmet or seatbelt. Odds are I won't need it. I hope I don't need it. But if I do need it, I'll be damn well glad if I have it (or damn well sorry if I don't).

    PhilB

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  3. #153
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    then why are we all not hearing more stories about how good guys with guns are saving the day? Regular civilian types, and not responding law enforcement.
    What were all those red blooded 2a country music fans doing this past Sunday? Exactly what humans do in a surprise life threat situation: fleeing.

    It's romance to think you'll whip that piece out and save the day, by either putting a stop to a threat on someone else's life, or your own.
    Preventing a crime rarely makes the news. Especially when (as is true in the majority of cases) the crime is prevented and the person defended without anyone being killed or injured, and usually without any shots being actually fired. It happens hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of times a year in this country.

    PhilB

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  4. #154
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    No, it happens all the time. I have myself used guns to (a) prevent theft of my auto, and (b) repel an intruder in my home. I keep my handguns in safes, the main defense one is in a small safe with a 5-button lock -- with practice I can retrieve it quickly -- and I can and have done so quickly enough to defend my property when needed. I rarely carry, as I tend to travel in pretty safe areas, but when I do, I carry "at the ready" so it can be useful if/when needed. I know plenty of people who carry routinely, some concealed, some openly, and they are capable of defending themselves quickly if/when needed, in a variety of situations. Not all defense situations begin with the bad guy already having his gun to your head. Guns are currently used defensively to stop crimes hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of times a year in this country. To try to deny this is false and foolish.

    PhilB

    You’re fucking full of shit, Phil. You do not walk around at the ready.

    Or you don’t know what you’re talking about, which makes you even more dangerous with a gun on your hip.

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  5. #155
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    The risk of ANY freedom is that someone will decide wrongly and abuse that freedom. It is inevitable. There are only two approaches -- (a) allow the freedom, recognize that some will abuse it, and deal with those individuals individually, or (b) restrict the freedom for everyone in an attempt to control the chance of abuse. Only one of those approaches is consistent with individual human rights. The other leads to totalitarianism. I know which side I'm on, and why.

    PhilB
    So that would be a "yes". Short of the minute he started firing, you support Pollard's right to amass his personal arsenal because any restriction upon that right will start us on a slippery slope to totalitarianism.

    If I misinterpreted your comment, please correct me.

    One irony I find interesting is that people will laugh at evangelicals who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and speaks to them with absolute certainty for all eternity, but the roomful of regular guys who drafted one little rebel country's constitution and then had to go back and clarify it with ten immediate amendments somehow could see hundreds of years into the future and were able to craft a document that would need no further interpretation or practical adjustment on the second of those ten amendments for all time and under all circumstances...

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    Last edited by SteveM; 10-07-17 at 06:48 PM.

  6. #156
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    This is probably the dumbest thing I’ve read today.
    Funny, I was thinking that about this

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. George Zimmerman!!!

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  7. #157
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    You’re fucking full of shit, Phil. You do not walk around at the ready.
    Or you don’t know what you’re talking about, which makes you even more dangerous with a gun on your hip.
    OK, yes, I did not know that you were referring specifically to a stance only suitable for a combat zone.
    And you're "fucking full of shit" yourself if you think that's the only way that a gun can be useful in a defensive situation.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 10-07-17 at 07:43 PM.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Las Vegas

    All y'all be doin' it wrong!

    Las Vegas-gun7-jpg

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  9. #159
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    So that would be a "yes". Short of the minute he started firing, you support Pollard's right to amass his personal arsenal because any restriction upon that right will start us on a slippery slope to totalitarianism.

    If I misinterpreted your comment, please correct me.

    One irony I find interesting is that people will laugh at evangelicals who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and speaks to them with absolute certainty for all eternity, but the roomful of regular guys who drafted one little rebel country's constitution and then had to go back and clarify it with ten immediate amendments somehow could see hundreds of years into the future and were able to craft a document that would need no further interpretation or practical adjustment on the second of those ten amendments for all time and under all circumstances...
    So yes, that would be a "yes". Unless and until a person actually commits an act of aggression, and is convicted of such by due process, he has his full rights. That's what is called "liberty".

    I don't personally put any stock in the Bible. I also do not think that "the roomful of regular guys ... somehow could see hundreds of years into the future and were able to craft a document that would need no further interpretation or practical adjustment on the second of those ten amendments for all time and under all circumstances". That's what's called a strawman, on your part. What I believe is that the room of quite smart regular guys were able to identify a few of the most critical individual human rights for political liberty and self-determination, and craft a document that protects those rights. There is provision for amending and adjusting that document, if it is needed -- but it hasn't been needed because none of those rights have changed.

    Freedom of the press is just as valid for the internet as it was for the printing press. Freedom of religion is just as valid for new religions that have been created since then as it was for the religions that already existed. The right to keep and bear arms applies to arms at any tech level, and is just as valid for today's guns as it was for muskets. Free speech, jury trials, no self-incrimination, and each of the other rights listed in the Bill of Rights are all basic human rights that are not different now than they were then.

    The primary change is that we now recognize that all of these rights apply equally to many more people than those guys back then thought, but that does not in any way invalidate the rights -- it strengthens those rights to expand their application to blacks and women and everyone else.

    If you think that some, or any, of those rights are no longer applicable, then it is your responsibility to make the case for that, and make it strongly enough to pass an actual Constitutional Amendment to change them. Until then, our government is supposed to be respecting and upholding those rights -- ALL of them.

    PhilB

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  10. #160
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    OK, yes, I did not know that you were referring specifically to a stance only suitable for a combat zone.
    And you're "fucking full of shit" yourself if you think that's the only way that a gun can be useful in a defensive situation.

    PhilB
    I thought I made I pretty clear when I said that I used that term in the tactical military sense.
    I’m pretty positive I’ve carried lots of guns in different ways in my short life. I know how to use them, and what they’re supposed to be used for.

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  11. #161
    Lifer obsolete's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    It's still true, as much so as ever.

    Against a foreign invader, less so, but still it has been repeatedly shown in recent decades that guerilla resistance to even a modern army can be very effective. e.g. In the last 14+ years, we the U.S., with all our military prowess, have not managed to pacify and control Afghanistan.

    Against our own government, very much so. Armed civilians outnumber the military 50-to-1, and that's assuming no one in the military or National Guard sides with the people. There are millions of combat vets in the civilian populace who could organize and direct civilian militia if and when needed. And the government will be hampered by the need (a) to not turn the entire populace against them, and (b) to have something left to be in charge of afterward if they win. So, for example, the fact that our government has nukes is of very little relevance to the question of revolt or resistance; if he start nuking U.S. cities, they will have nothing left to have power over.

    PhilB
    Is there any proof of this being the intention of the 2nd Amendment? I'd like to read that.

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  12. #162
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    So yes, that would be a "yes". Unless and until a person actually commits an act of aggression, and is convicted of such by due process, he has his full rights. That's what is called "liberty".

    I don't personally put any stock in the Bible. I also do not think that "the roomful of regular guys ... somehow could see hundreds of years into the future and were able to craft a document that would need no further interpretation or practical adjustment on the second of those ten amendments for all time and under all circumstances". That's what's called a strawman, on your part. What I believe is that the room of quite smart regular guys were able to identify a few of the most critical individual human rights for political liberty and self-determination, and craft a document that protects those rights. There is provision for amending and adjusting that document, if it is needed -- but it hasn't been needed because none of those rights have changed.

    Freedom of the press is just as valid for the internet as it was for the printing press. Freedom of religion is just as valid for new religions that have been created since then as it was for the religions that already existed. The right to keep and bear arms applies to arms at any tech level, and is just as valid for today's guns as it was for muskets. Free speech, jury trials, no self-incrimination, and each of the other rights listed in the Bill of Rights are all basic human rights that are not different now than they were then.

    The primary change is that we now recognize that all of these rights apply equally to many more people than those guys back then thought, but that does not in any way invalidate the rights -- it strengthens those rights to expand their application to blacks and women and everyone else.

    If you think that some, or any, of those rights are no longer applicable, then it is your responsibility to make the case for that, and make it strongly enough to pass an actual Constitutional Amendment to change them. Until then, our government is supposed to be respecting and upholding those rights -- ALL of them.

    PhilB
    None of us truly know what the framers would think or do today. We know what they thought then and there.

    They lived in a world in which they had just overthrown a government by defeating its army and were wary that their infant democracy could become a tyranny in its own right and wanted to prohibit the government from disarming the citizenry during a time in which the citizenry could feasibly overthrow the government.

    The possibility of overthrowing a government gone bad still exists but it would happen by the military, not the citizenry. More guns in the hands of citizens makes absolutely no difference in that calculus, but more guns in the hands of a few citizens endagers the lives of others.

    If you consider the right to bear arms an exercise of our fundamental human right to liberty, keep in mind that they listed life first, ahead of liberty and happiness. It can be argued that protecting lives is the highest priority.

    My point is not to win an internet argument, or to change your mind, but merely point out that there is gray and there are differing interpretations.

    Lastly, our government's reluctance to do anything substantial on this issue is not rooted in their belief in 2A, it is firmly grounded in the slimy bottom of NRA and gun manufacturer money and threats. The 2A debate left "principle" years ago. It's about money, power and profits, with liberty and "rights" being used as pawns.

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    Last edited by SteveM; 10-07-17 at 08:34 PM.

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  14. #164
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I thought I made I pretty clear when I said that I used that term in the tactical military sense.
    I’m pretty positive I’ve carried lots of guns in different ways in my short life. I know how to use them, and what they’re supposed to be used for.
    I haven't been in the military, and thus did not know the exact definition of the term you used. In my experience, in civilian life, no one ever carries a gun "at the ready" in the sense you were using it, so it was a silly question on your part. Your insistence that a gun is not effective for defense unless it is being carried "at the ready" in a tactical military sense, your claim that it is a "romantic idea" that a gun not carried in such a way could ever be readied and used in a time of need, your characterization that defensive situations consist entirely of "the bad guy has his gun in your face" and that thus you can never effectively use your own gun for defense, all point to a fairly severe lack of knowledge about civilian defensive gun use and ability. You may have carried lots of guns, you may think you "know how to use them, and what they’re supposed to be used for", but your expertise seems to be restricted to a fairly specific scope of military action, and to not be applicable (or at least you have been unable to generalize it such) to the sort of real life the rest of us live in.

    PhilB

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  15. #165
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    Is there any proof of this being the intention of the 2nd Amendment? I'd like to read that.
    There is a great deal of scholarship on the topic, which is readily available. The most direct proof is that the 2nd Amendment itself *says that*, right there, in plain English. The *purpose* of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is to enable the formation of "a well regulated militia", since that is "necessary to the security of a free state". Not "necessary to the ability to go hunting", or "necessary to the enjoyment of target shooting", or even "necessary to the protection of one's safety and property". The 2nd Amendment exists because armed people are necessary to the formation of a militia, and the ability to form a militia is necessary to the security of a free state.

    PhilB

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  16. #166
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... They lived in a world in which they had just overthrown a government by defeating its army and were wary that their infant democracy could become a tyranny in its own right and wanted to prohibit the government from disarming the citizenry during a time in which the citizenry could feasibly overthrow the government.
    EXACTLY. They had just defeated the most powerful military in the world, BY forming a well regulated militia, consisting of the people keeping and bearing their own arms. So yes, precisely, they thought it was critical to liberty that such a right be respected, and not infringed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... The possibility of overthrowing a government gone bad still exists but it would happen by the military, not the citizenry. More guns in the hands of citizens makes absolutely no difference in that calculus, but more guns in the hands of a few citizens endagers the lives of others.
    The military is one possibility, and that happens in some places. But that rarely turns out very well for the people. Which is why (again) the founders thought it critical for America to be *different* from those other places -- to be uniquely a place where the right of the PEOPLE to be armed is respected and protected, so that we are not simply at the mercy of governments and militaries. More guns (300M at least, and maybe twice that now) in the hands of citizens (100M or more) absolutely does make a huge difference in that calculus.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... If you consider the right to bear arms an exercise of our fundamental human right to liberty, keep in mind that they listed life first, ahead of liberty and happiness. It can be argued that protecting lives is the highest priority.
    Of course that can be argued. I'd argue for that myself. The difference is that I see the right to bear arms as being entirely consistent with protecting lives as the highest priority. Disarmed people cannot protect their own, or each others', lives very well. Considering that governments gone bad are extraordinarily lethal, having killed literally hundreds of millions of people in the last century, an armed populace that is capable of forming a militia if needed is critical to protecting lives and liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... Lastly, our government's reluctance to do anything substantial on this issue is not rooted in their belief in 2A, it is firmly grounded in the slimy bottom of NRA and gun manufacturer money and threats. The 2A debate left "principle" years ago. It's about money, power and profits, with liberty and "rights" being used as pawns.
    You gun control advocates seem to miss a major factor. You say the problem is that the gun lobby has scads of money, but the budget of the NRA and other gun rights organizations is not really very large. No more than gets spent by the teachers unions, for example. Not nearly enough to actually buy a whole government.

    The core of the NRA's power is that it is well organized and gets out the voters. What those who want to demonize and blame the NRA fail to grasp that this requires that the voters in question exist. The gun lobby is not operating in a vacuum -- there are tens of millions of Americans who value our right to keep and bear arms, and who vote. The gun control faction likes to try to claim that 90% of people want gun control, but are thwarted by the money and dirty tricks of the evil gun lobby, but if that was true, the gun lobby would have no clout. The fact is that gun control IS a losing proposition with the majority of voters in America. As it should be.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 10-07-17 at 10:11 PM.
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  17. #167
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    I haven't been in the military, and thus did not know the exact definition of the term you used. In my experience, in civilian life, no one ever carries a gun "at the ready" in the sense you were using it, so it was a silly question on your part. Your insistence that a gun is not effective for defense unless it is being carried "at the ready" in a tactical military sense, your claim that it is a "romantic idea" that a gun not carried in such a way could ever be readied and used in a time of need, your characterization that defensive situations consist entirely of "the bad guy has his gun in your face" and that thus you can never effectively use your own gun for defense, all point to a fairly severe lack of knowledge about civilian defensive gun use and ability. You may have carried lots of guns, you may think you "know how to use them, and what they’re supposed to be used for", but your expertise seems to be restricted to a fairly specific scope of military action, and to not be applicable (or at least you have been unable to generalize it such) to the sort of real life the rest of us live in.

    PhilB
    In case you ever want to pull your head out of the sand, you’ll notice that I am indeed pointing out the silliness. The fact you’ve made the claim to have saved your own ass and so many others only furthers my point.
    You don’t get a mulligan this time for not knowing a military term when I said I was using it in the military sense. Sorry.

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  18. #168
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Preventing a crime rarely makes the news. Especially when (as is true in the majority of cases) the crime is prevented and the person defended without anyone being killed or injured, and usually without any shots being actually fired. It happens hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of times a year in this country.

    PhilB
    Is there a source to back up those numbers? Cause it kinda just sounds like something Alex Jones would say.


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  19. #169
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    To paraphrase Jim Jeffries, the thing that makes crazy people crazy is that they don't know they're crazy.

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  20. #170
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    In case you ever want to pull your head out of the sand, you’ll notice that I am indeed pointing out the silliness. The fact you’ve made the claim to have saved your own ass and so many others only furthers my point.
    You don’t get a mulligan this time for not knowing a military term when I said I was using it in the military sense. Sorry.
    <rolleyes> Wait, the fact that I and others claim to have successfully used our guns in defense somehow furthers your point that guns aren't useful for that?

    Ooh, no mulligan!? Do I have to place the ball back in the tree and take a one-shot penalty? I made an error and didn't understand the term you used. I admit that. Which does no in any way invalidate any of my other points. Or provide any support for yours.

    You're making as little sense as ever.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 10-08-17 at 11:14 AM.
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  21. #171
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Is there a source to back up those numbers? Cause it kinda just sounds like something Alex Jones would say.
    Estimates vary widely, but the LOW end is about 64,000 per year in America, a number that even the Brady campaign admits to. The high end estimate is (of course) from the NRA, at 4.7M per year. A variety of other studies tend to cluster at between 1M and 2M a year. So I feel comfortable in saying, as a wide estimate, "hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of times a year in this country". Defensive gun use - Wikipedia

    PhilB

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  22. #172
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    Is there any proof of this being the intention of the 2nd Amendment? I'd like to read that.
    Nobody really knows what they meant, but two things to remember when the 2nd amendment was written:

    1) We didn't have a federal army, instead we had a system of state militias that could be unified to form a temporary federal army.

    Due to their experience with the British army, the founders were super paranoid of a federal army (basically what we have now). They tried like crazy to prevent it from being formed -- the continental army was disbanded after the revolutionary war ended. Unfortunately they learned the hard way (a series of Indian defeats and other fiascos) that state militias make terrible armies, and they ended up creating West Point and a permanent federal army pretty early in the 19th century.

    When you consider this context, it makes a ton of sense that the 2nd amendment was mostly concerned with the federal government disarming the states. The founders' worst fear was a federal law that would disband the state militias -- basically what the British tried to do.

    2) We didn't yet have the 14th amendment (not really interpreted in the courts until the late 19th century), so the bill of rights didn't even apply to state law. So states or towns could easily make guns illegal, and in fact guns were illegal in many localities during the 19th century. Lots of gun regulation in the wild west towns, contrary to the hollywood depiction:



    (this is Dodge City, Kansas in 1878)

    For a concise summary on how the meaning of the 2nd amendment has changed since written by the founders I refer you to this post:

    united states - U.S. weapon restrictions during 19th century - History Stack Exchange

    The official way we determine how the Constitution is "understood" is through US Supreme Court decisions.

    There have been basically 3 definitive decisions on the 2nd amendment, only one of which came before the 20th Century.

    Note first that prior to the 14th Amendment, the Bill of Rights was generally held to constrain only the Federal Government, not the states. So the 2nd amendment at that time would have been essentially preventing the Federal government from keeping weapons from state militias, but not prohibiting the states from regulating weapons any way they chose (including prohibiting their militias from having certain weapons). That's how you get "well-regulated" and an absolute right in the same sentence. They are referring to two different regulating entities.

    After the 14th amendment, the bill of rights was essentially applied to every government within the USA at any level. This could be viewed as having "broken" the old view of the 2nd amendment.

    The first attempt to grapple with this was United States vs. Cruikshank in 1875 (just after the 14th Amendment). This essentially said the 14th didn't apply to the 2nd Amendment, and any relief from infringing laws would have to be sought from state courts. This was reaffirmed twice before 1900.

    The second, United States vs. Miller in 1939, held the SCOTUS could strike down state gun laws, but for a regulation to be unconstitutional it had to apply to a "well-regulated militia". So effectively, the 2nd amendment applied to militias, not to individuals.

    The third was District of Columbia vs. Heller, in 2008. This kept Miller's finding that the SCOTUS had authority, but changed the interpretation of the amendment to make it apply to individuals, not just militias. This is effectively the regime we are under now.

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  23. #173
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Estimates vary widely, but the LOW end is about 64,000 per year in America, a number that even the Brady campaign admits to. The high end estimate is (of course) from the NRA, at 4.7M per year. A variety of other studies tend to cluster at between 1M and 2M a year. So I feel comfortable in saying, as a wide estimate, "hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of times a year in this country". Defensive gun use - Wikipedia

    PhilB
    So with estimates carrying such an absurd deviation, can we agree the actual number of personal defense scenarios involving might was well be stated as “spaghetti?”


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  24. #174
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    So with estimates carrying such an absurd deviation, can we agree the actual number of personal defense scenarios involving might was well be stated as “spaghetti?”
    No. We can say it's at least 64K, not more than 4.7M, and probably actually between 1M and 2M. ALL of those numbers, even the lowest estimate, show that guns are used defensively to stop crimes far more often than they are used to kill people.

    PhilB

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  25. #175
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    No. We can say it's at least 64K, not more than 4.7M, and probably actually between 1M and 2M. ALL of those numbers, even the lowest estimate, show that guns are used defensively to stop crimes far more often than they are used to kill people.

    PhilB
    Do you agree we have a problem with gun violence in this country?


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