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Las Vegas

  1. #176
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas


    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Do you agree we have a problem with gun violence in this country?
    k
    Everybody knows we have a problem with gun violence in this country. Do you have a working solution?

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  2. #177
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by AEG View Post
    Everybody knows we have a problem with gun violence in this country. Do you have a working solution?
    Letís start with a national mental health database (and prohibit certain mental illnesses from firearms ownership), mandatory full background checks, and eliminate the firearms flea markets.
    Edit: whatever we do, it needs to be a national standard, to keep people from crossing state lines and going hog wild.

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    Last edited by Chippertheripper; 10-08-17 at 05:48 PM.
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  3. #178
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Let’s start with a national mental health database (and prohibit certain mental illnesses from firearms ownership), mandatory full background checks, and eliminate the firearms flea markets.
    Edit: whatever we do, it needs to be a national standard, to keep people from crossing state lines and going hog wild.
    States rights!
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    Liberty!
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    Just saving time and predictable posts...


    Do people in democratic countries with strict guns laws walk around bemoaning their lost liberty?

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  4. #179
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Let’s start with a national mental health database (and prohibit certain mental illnesses from firearms ownership), mandatory full background checks, and eliminate the firearms flea markets.
    Edit: whatever we do, it needs to be a national standard, to keep people from crossing state lines and going hog wild.
    I see the holes in it - a database is as good as its data that is collected and stored. There is a potential that people will not seek help (those who might need it most) due to the fear of losing their rights. And mental health abuse is not new in this world. For example: people who dared to question the ideology of the KPCC would end up in the psychiatric clinic...

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    Last edited by AEG; 10-08-17 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #180
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    If we can sacrifice thousands of Americans to the noble notion of stopping terrorism, we can make some personal sacrifices to stop domestic gun violence.

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  6. #181
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Lol.

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  7. #182
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Exactly.

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  8. #183
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Evil will always find a way and evil will always exist /gun control debate

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  9. #184
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Wow.

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  10. #185
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I haven't read any posts on this thread, but let me guess: "if we place controls on guns, what about knives, hammers, etc.?" "We need to enforce existing laws before thinking about new ones." "More people are killed by drunk drivers." "Founding fathers, blah, blah, blah." "Massachusetts has strict gun laws and people are gunning each other down." "It's a complex issue involving mental health, economic inequality, individual rights." and so on, and so on. Same old verbal diarrhea with each "side" demonizing the other rather than having an intelligent discussion regarding what the hell is going on. We, as a government, society and culture have decided that decisions made 250 years ago are so inviolate that we are willing to live with kids being gunned down in elementary schools as a price of "liberty".

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  11. #186
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Do you agree we have a problem with gun violence in this country?
    I agree that we have a problem with violence in this country. We have a problem with violence as a species. I do not agree that our problem with violence is all about guns.

    PhilB

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  12. #187
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Let’s start with a national mental health database (and prohibit certain mental illnesses from firearms ownership), mandatory full background checks, and eliminate the firearms flea markets.
    Edit: whatever we do, it needs to be a national standard, to keep people from crossing state lines and going hog wild.
    Wow, that's a terrible idea. Even if we had some idea of what mental health means, or what "certain mental illnesses" might be grounds for restricting people's rights, or had any capacity for predicting which people might become violent mass killers -- this would *still* be a bad idea, ripe for abuse of power.

    PhilB

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  13. #188
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    I agree that we have a problem with violence in this country. We have a problem with violence as a species. I do not agree that our problem with violence is all about guns.

    PhilB
    If we have a problem with violence as a species, and murder rates, especially mass shootings are much rarer in countries with tight gun laws, it would appear to sugges that less access to guns results in fewer people being killed, and especially killed by guns.

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  14. #189
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Duncan, in answer to you question. "NO" seems to be the consensus. Thats why the gun debate is a lost cause. Its all or nothing, so it will continue to be nothing.

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  15. #190
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by AEG View Post
    Everybody knows we have a problem with gun violence in this country. Do you have a working solution?
    Me? I may be arrogant, but not that damn arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by MFChop View Post
    Evil will always find a way and evil will always exist /gun control debate
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    I agree that we have a problem with violence in this country. We have a problem with violence as a species. I do not agree that our problem with violence is all about guns.

    PhilB
    As it explicitly relates to violence and death by guns, can we agree that it's time to actually study this problem? I'm talking a repeal of the Dickey Amendment followed by a continuous study by the CDC and NIH. Isn't it reasonable to suggest that there is no one on this thread who actually has a genuine grasp on every (or even most) facet(s) of this issue?

    I really can't understand how we have people on one side of this debate saying "New laws won't help, more guns for me!" and people on the other saying "Ban all the guns!" Neither is even remotely close to a feasible solution. Neither is even remotely close to the path we should follow as a country. The rhetoric that surrounds each side of the debate inevitably leads to a stalemate and it's useless. Everyone stays pissed, both arguments are driven by emotion, and all the while an awful lot of innocent people are getting shot and killed. Sometimes its one at a time, sometimes its a mass shooting. Either way I find it unacceptable to continue without us as a country putting our best resources towards determining the causes and potential solutions to the problem. It's motherfucking science, people.

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  16. #191
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Not many saying "ban all the guns"...yet.

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  17. #192
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    If we have a problem with violence as a species, and murder rates, especially mass shootings are much rarer in countries with tight gun laws, it would appear to sugges that less access to guns results in fewer people being killed, and especially killed by guns.
    Except that it isn't even close to true that "murder rates, especially mass shootings are much rarer in countries with tight gun laws". Also, the fact that we have a problem with violence as a species makes it MORE important, not less, that peaceable people have the capacity to defend themselves when they need to. And your "especially killed by guns" is a red flag of not considering the whole situation. I do not see it as being any better to be killed with something other than a gun, so all this focus on stopping "gun violence", without addressing violence as a problem in general, is misguided and useless. The problem is violence -- PEOPLE who commit violence -- not guns or other tools.

    PhilB

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  18. #193
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    As it explicitly relates to violence and death by guns, can we agree that it's time to actually study this problem? I'm talking a repeal of the Dickey Amendment followed by a continuous study by the CDC and NIH. Isn't it reasonable to suggest that there is no one on this thread who actually has a genuine grasp on every (or even most) facet(s) of this issue? ...
    The problem there is that the reason the Dickey Amendment was passed (and needed) was that the CDC and NIH were not conducting honest study; they were spending tax dollars on "research" designed to be useful in advocacy of gun control. The government is not a neutral party in this debate. The CDC was *starting* its studies with the premise that "gun violence is a public health epidemic". Which bloody well guarantees that the design of the study will be flawed, and heavily biased.

    Study the problem honestly, fine. Nothing's stopping that. There are no laws that say you can't study this. Again, though, I'd say that if you want to discover any useful knowledge that will help with the problem of violence, you need to study the violence, not the tools.

    PhilB

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  19. #194
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Wow, that's a terrible idea. Even if we had some idea of what mental health means, or what "certain mental illnesses" might be grounds for restricting people's rights, or had any capacity for predicting which people might become violent mass killers -- this would *still* be a bad idea, ripe for abuse of power.

    PhilB
    This is a bit you do, right? A schtick?

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  20. #195

    Re: Las Vegas

    I think what gun-nuts base most of their arguments (and they are just going wrong about imo) is that giving any rights up will just show that the government can do whatever they want and they will keep going after peoples rights.

    Degsy you are so antigovernment with everything except guns and I was never able to figure out why.

    And just to throw it out there yes I believe that not everybody is suitable to own or operate firearms. But who will be the judge of who is and who isn't?

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  21. #196
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    Re: Las Vegas

    I'm a socialist. I'm astounded that someone would think I'm anti government. I'm anti state police in the form they are in now. The fact that you equate state police with government is probably a reflection on your life experiences. The state police is certainly NOT the government (or shouldnt be) as reflected by the number of sanctuary city declarations happening right now.

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  22. #197
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    I agree that we have a problem with violence in this country. We have a problem with violence as a species. I do not agree that our problem with violence is all about guns.

    PhilB
    Very careful with your wording here.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    The problem there is that the reason the Dickey Amendment was passed (and needed) was that the CDC and NIH were not conducting honest study; they were spending tax dollars on "research" designed to be useful in advocacy of gun control. The government is not a neutral party in this debate. The CDC was *starting* its studies with the premise that "gun violence is a public health epidemic". Which bloody well guarantees that the design of the study will be flawed, and heavily biased.

    Study the problem honestly, fine. Nothing's stopping that. There are no laws that say you can't study this. Again, though, I'd say that if you want to discover any useful knowledge that will help with the problem of violence, you need to study the violence, not the tools.

    PhilB
    Your perspective on the research done on this time seems a bit arbitrary. Likewise with your perspective on gun related defense. I don't think you're approaching this subject from a purely logical angle, it honestly feels a bit emotional.

    The reality of the Dickey Amendment isn't a prohibition on gun research, which is technically allowed. That said, it is effectively a ban as any research which is determined to be supportive of gun control is not allowed to be funded. So if one is able to make a reasonable argument that a study could lead to gun control, that study receives no funding. Pretty sure it's exceptionally easy to make that argument in basically any scenario. Net result is "sure, you can study gun violence, as long as it's privately funded!"

    I honestly find the notion that studying the violence itself, not the "tools" as you put it, to be intellectually dishonest. It just seems like you don't wan't to be caught in some "gotcha" moment where you've admitted that because we have guns, lots more people die in the US than other developed countries. By several orders of magnitude. There are numbers available for this. Contrast gun homicide rates per 100,000 with all homicide per 100,000. You don't have to be a scientist to see the correlation between the two.

    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia
    List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

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  23. #198
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Except that it isn't even close to true that "murder rates, especially mass shootings are much rarer in countries with tight gun laws". Also, the fact that we have a problem with violence as a species makes it MORE important, not less, that peaceable people have the capacity to defend themselves when they need to. And your "especially killed by guns" is a red flag of not considering the whole situation. I do not see it as being any better to be killed with something other than a gun, so all this focus on stopping "gun violence", without addressing violence as a problem in general, is misguided and useless. The problem is violence -- PEOPLE who commit violence -- not guns or other tools.

    PhilB
    Someone else has posted some data on this. But this seems to be an objective and quantifiable statistic.Las Vegas-murder-jpg Based on this graphic from that post, we are beating Africa by 30% and running ahead of the rest of the world by a 5X factor. These are per capita rates.

    So either Americans "as a species" are 5x more violent than Europeans "as a species" or some other factor is at work.

    Might I humbly suggest that easier access to weapons that can result in murder more efficiently than the weapons available in other countries "might" be "a factor" that we should be looking at?

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  24. #199
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Someone else has posted some data on this. But this seems to be an objective and quantifiable statistic.Las Vegas-murder-jpg Based on this graphic from that post, we are beating Africa by 30% and running ahead of the rest of the world by a 5X factor. These are per capita rates.

    So either Americans "as a species" are 5x more violent than Europeans "as a species" or some other factor is at work.

    Might I humbly suggest that easier access to weapons that can result in murder more efficiently than the weapons available in other countries "might" be "a factor" that we should be looking at?
    Your conclusion is correct, although that graphic is a bit misleading. Included in the "Americas" are all of the Central and South American countries as well as the Caribbean which have exceptionally high rates of homicide. So to say "we" are beating Africa by 30% is a bit misleading.

    Examine homicide rate per 100,000 and you'll find the US ranks at 94th, 4.88 per 100k, behind Kyrgyzstan and ahead of Kazakhstan.

    Examine homicide rate by firearm per 100,00 and the US ranks 18th in the world at 3.60 per 100k.

    So our homicide rate per 100k is 4.88 or approximately 15,900 homicides per year. Our homicides by firearm per 100k is 3.60 or approximately 11,700. Approximately 75% of all homicides are by firearm. Also factor in that basically every country with strict gun control has a homicide rate (ALL homicides) drastically lower than ours. So it is very easy to say that when people have easy access to "tools" which kill more effectively (perhaps disconnect the perpetrator from the act?) then they will commit more homicide.

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  25. #200
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Your conclusion is correct, although that graphic is a bit misleading. Included in the "Americas" are all of the Central and South American countries as well as the Caribbean which have exceptionally high rates of homicide. So to say "we" are beating Africa by 30% is a bit misleading.

    Examine homicide rate per 100,000 and you'll find the US ranks at 94th, 4.88 per 100k, behind Kyrgyzstan and ahead of Kazakhstan.

    Examine homicide rate by firearm per 100,00 and the US ranks 18th in the world at 3.60 per 100k.

    So our homicide rate per 100k is 4.88 or approximately 15,900 homicides per year. Our homicides by firearm per 100k is 3.60 or approximately 11,700. Approximately 75% of all homicides are by firearm. Also factor in that basically every country with strict gun control has a homicide rate (ALL homicides) drastically lower than ours. So it is very easy to say that when people have easy access to "tools" which kill more effectively (perhaps disconnect the perpetrator from the act?) then they will commit more homicide.
    Thanks for clearing that up. We agree on the point.

    Other countries with similar economic demographics have far lower murder/gun death rates than us. If we have a problem with "violence as a species" then what is the logical argument for the US making it demonstrably easier to act on that impulse with more lethal tools?

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